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Brian_Ewen

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Gleneagles Kings Course Changes
« on: May 25, 2022, 02:48:53 AM »
https://www.scotsman.com/sport/golf/senior-open-why-the-kings-course-at-gleneagles-will-deliver-true-test-as-bold-prediction-made-on-crowds-3707512


Changes have been made specifically with this event in mind. A new tee at the seventh hole, named Kittle Kink, has not only increased the length from 444 yards to 468 yards but also changed the angle for the drive by creating a more severe dog-leg.

Situated in an existing copse of trees, another new tee has lengthened the 12th, called Tappit Hen, by 33 yards, requiring a hefty hit is now required to carry the bunkers guarding the saddle that runs across the fairway.

For many, the 14th is the favourite on the course and, having been extended by 32 yards to 341 yards, the exciting risk-and-reward element at Dent Den has been retained.

Though not brand new, a back tee at the 18th will also ensure that a solid closing drive is required to clear another of those saddles, which had become easy to clear from the old tee due to the enhanced equipment.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2022, 03:25:15 AM by Brian_Ewen »

jeffwarne

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Re: Gleneagles Kings Course Changes
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2022, 08:22:17 AM »
Proof that players get more athletic with every passing year ;) ;D
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Marty Bonnar

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Re: Gleneagles Kings Course Changes
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2022, 08:52:25 AM »
Looking forward to seeing the old geezers qualifying at Ladybank!
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Gleneagles Kings Course Changes
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2022, 05:09:06 AM »
Before the Gleneagles Ryder Cup, I tried to get a campaign going under the slogan 'Play the Cup on the King's', but didn't get much traction. I did have a conversation on the subject with Paul Kimber, who said he could easily find another 500 yards on the King's course.


I visited Gleneagles on a press trip a few years ago, and decided I didn't dislike the Centenary as much as I had previously -- it has some decent holes, especially at the far end of the front nine. But it's not a patch on the King's.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Brian_Ewen

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Re: Gleneagles Kings Course Changes
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2022, 03:13:49 PM »
How much have they lengthened the 18th by?

Seems so strange to see Pro's (okay Seniors) laying up of the cross bunkers, when 30+ years ago, they were driving over them, and easily getting on in two.

« Last Edit: July 23, 2022, 03:31:58 PM by Brian_Ewen »

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Gleneagles Kings Course Changes
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2022, 03:22:05 PM »
The iconic Gleneagles Hotel in the Scottish Highlands has renovated back tees at five holes on its King’s course, ahead of its hosting the Senior Open Championship, July 21-24.[/size] James Braid designed the King’s in 1924 and the course underwent a successful restoration in 2016. The current work focused on adding length, challenge and better views of the greens.[/color][/size]A new back tee on the par-4 seventh hole, built behind the sixth green, stretches the yardage from 444 to 468. It also alters the angle of the tee shot, creating a sharper dogleg, which makes it tougher to cut the corner. At the 178-yard, par-3 eighth, Gleneagles extended the tee and moved it further left to reveal the right side of the green. The drivable par-4 14th has bumped its back tee yardage from 309 to 341, while at the petite, 158-yard, par-3 16th, the back tee has been lowered and shifted to the left to provide a view of the entire green.Additional changes ahead of the tournament include the introduction of closely mown surfaces around the greens and fairway bunkers, which helps to better incorporate the site’s natural contours into the playing experience.“Gleneagles’ reputation as a sporting estate has flourished for a century, with golf and the King’s course at the very heart of that rich history,” said Conor O’Leary, managing director of Gleneagles. “While our modern classic, the PGA Centenary course designed by Jack Nicklaus, has hosted iconic Ryder Cup and Solheim Cup matches, we are so proud to welcome legends of the game to the King’s, where golf started at Gleneagles all those years ago. The sympathetic course changes we have made recognize the way the modern game has evolved, but still retain the King’s numerous strategic challenges that have made this timeless classic so revered the world over.”www.firstcallgolf.com. [/size]
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
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Philip Caccamise

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Re: Gleneagles Kings Course Changes
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2022, 11:53:33 PM »
I have not been to Gleneagles (fantastic on TV!), but the announcers kept calling it a heathland course. Isn't it really a moorland course? And one of the best of that sub-category?

jeffwarne

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Re: Gleneagles Kings Course Changes New
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2022, 04:03:19 AM »
I liked the course a lot, but I was not enamored with the setup-seemed a bit thoughtless to me considering the field. But then again it is a major, so my whinging seems a bit silly.
I do think it will identify the best players in the field, and will make for compelling TV watching.


 The landforms are spectacular and the course has a lot of challenging shots, calling for strategy, decision maaking and ultimately, control of one's golf ball, and discipline in knowing what shots to take on, and when to simply play away from a pin or even green.
The greens are simply fantastic, very, very firm, fast(given the slopes) and full of both severe tilt and undulation as well as subtle, making even the routine putts a study in concentration to get close for a two putt. I putted very well, but rarely was able to get that first putt ito kick in distance.Being above the hole was a no-no.


For clarity,I'm 59, and a comfortable carry for me is 250 yards, with normal ball speed around 152-154 and can rev it to 265-maybe 270 carry and 160 ball speed-so I'm not particulalry short and am longer than I have been in some time, having done quite a bit of swing and speed work over the last 2 years. That said, I wasn't on all cylinders and hit zero drivers in the qualifier, choosing to shape 3 and 5 woods on the firm fast Blairgowrie doglegs.



Having never seen the previous version of The Kings, the criticism I would have is that several of those holes with new tees(basically 4-5 holes on the back), they made the layup tee shot FAAAR tighter and more penal than the carry area-(deleted the redundant post)


It just seemed a very odd setup in an event where 1/3 of the field is Open qualifiers(mostly UK club pros), and at least another 1/4 is there on distant past accomplishment, not current skill. Many of whom are late 50's and well into their 60's,and qualifying on narrow, firm old classic venues, selecting perhaps a different type of player.
Far more disparity in length and current ability in the field than say an Open Championship or a US Open.


I watched Corey Pavin tee off #1 and do wonder how exactly he plodded around the course with his head high 220 yard cut drivers.(I think I just answered my own question)
May have to watch him today.


The other thing I'll say is the announcers are totally missing the boat saying the front is far more difficult-sure in relation to par, as there are no par 5's,but the stretch from 9-18 is rife with potential big numbers-the front can be navigated with a series of driving irons, fairway woods or whatever, and leave a proportional to the layup type shot into the green.
I.e. if you hit a 3 wood off the tee, you're simply 15 to 30 yards further back with a worse or better angle depending upon where you drove it(hopefully to a good angle).
On the back, even if you negotiate the risky layup, your "reward" is a blind shot over a massive landform from 70-120 yards further back than the 270 driver carry guy who is staring at the pin with wedge in his hand.


So sure in relation to par the par 34 front is tougher, and yes 10 and 18 are birdie holes(just because of the arbitrary par#), but far more big numbers are in play on the back nine(on nearly every hole) whether one plays conservatively or not.


In short, not the course you can play safely in for easy bogie/hard par when leaking oil(as I was at the end of Day 2), as one can at many links, or even at a Shinnecock when on the waaaay back tees.


An awesome experience for sure, just gotta play better;) :o ;D
For context, my goal was 150-shot 158, so not that shocking-hit a lot of really good shots-especially on the front 9, where Day 2 I lost a ball with an 8 iron on the blind 3rd hole approach-a really cool hole and one of my favorites.
Just missed the fairways on 9,10,12,13,14 and 18(hit 8 out of 14 on the day) and paid the price-despite attempting to lay up with a comfortable club on several of those holes.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2022, 05:05:52 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Gleneagles Kings Course Changes
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2022, 04:06:52 AM »
I have not been to Gleneagles (fantastic on TV!), but the announcers kept calling it a heathland course. Isn't it really a moorland course? And one of the best of that sub-category?


If you take the wider definition of heathland, then moorland is a subset, pertaining to upland, wet heathland (as opposed to lowland and dry heath). But possibly it’s better represented by a Venn diagram with some crossover between them.


Gleneagles is wet heath. A lot of the vegetation is similar (heather), the soil is acidic, just not sand.

Sean_A

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Re: Gleneagles Kings Course Changes
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2022, 04:22:42 AM »
I have not been to Gleneagles (fantastic on TV!), but the announcers kept calling it a heathland course. Isn't it really a moorland course? And one of the best of that sub-category?

Gleneagles is not a heathland in the way that term is used for golf. It's moorland, which really means it's not a sandy base and therefore the course likely won't perform as well as a fairly authentic heathland course in wetter weather. The two don't look similar either.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

JMEvensky

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Re: Gleneagles Kings Course Changes
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2022, 04:38:49 AM »
Jeff Warne, thanks for taking the time to write that. I have a couple of friends playing and I'm curious how much they'll agree/disagree with.


And belated congratulations making it into the tournament--that was a great round in the qualifier.

Niall C

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Re: Gleneagles Kings Course Changes
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2022, 01:47:24 PM »
"On Day 2 I hit a 3 wood five yards into the left rough, was given a safe sign by the spotter/marshall(the only marshall I saw near our group for two days), and then my ball was never found."
 
Jeff
 
In my one and only play at Pebble Beach I hit a bit of a pulled drive on the hole with the sharp right to left dog-leg playing over a gulley (3rd hole ?) and one of the course rangers who was standing up by the gulley signalled by crossing his hands in front of his body. Apparently this is a signal that is used by umpires in baseball to signal the player is safe, or at least that was what he explained to me afterwards when questioning why I hit a provisional. Unfortunately in the UK that signal is generally taken as meaning the ball is dead. I wonder if that was what the marshall was signalling up at the King's Course ?
 
Niall

jeffwarne

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Re: Gleneagles Kings Course Changes
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2022, 02:22:21 PM »
Neill, he apologised profusely-saying he saw it down exactly.
Must've taken his eye off as he walked the 40 yards forward from the top of the hill, and it was thick lush fescue

Said he had it down and convinced my caddie who was out ahead as well that he had it, so he didn't wave me to hit another, which I was already ball in hand.


Today I spotted a ball for Scott Parel on 14 in  the same type grass, where he was laying up with a 4 iron. (he is super long and has been near top of the Tour in distance several years)
I waved for him to hit a provisional, which he did.
I ran across the fairway as there was no marshall.
I had the line but not the exact distance as I was 60 yards away, and it still took 2 minutes for 5 of us to find it.
He was just to the right of the ferns where I lost a ball Friday,in tall lush grass, five yards from the 20 yard wide fairway.
As I was exiting the scene an official asked me to stick around and marshall for the next few groups, thinking I was a volunteer, and asked where I had been... I laughed and said they can play under the same conditions I played in-no spotters.




There were some wonderful gallery areas that were mowed out over such areas, but they were miles out of play.
One such mow pass each side would've been a wonderful thing in the shorter areas off the tee where players were attempting to play safe-especially since they appeared to have done so in the supposed "landing areas" 50 yards down the fairways.
It was nice to see today in rougher weather the elite players using my landing areas of the first two days ;) .


I simply don't understand 4 foot ferns and two foot tall fescue that close to play,especially with minimal marshalls and then less of the tall gunch the further out one goes off the tee.
I'm guessing they were assuming certain "driving areas" and didn't account for wind, shorter hitters, strategy, struggles etc.
Scott is not short however.


On 17, I was up on the high ground watching them play and his eventual low-am fellow competitor hit one left in the gunch, again 5 yards out of play. He then hacked one out that only went about 30 yards still into the shite-I ran down the hill to help but didn't see it down exactly, and it was ferny dead. Scott, who was preparing to play his second ran up 60 yards  and pointed out exactly where it was, and no chance we find it if he hadn't see it exactly down.. He then had to play backwards.


That said, walking the course today, even in the rain, was majestic.
Really a great course with great landforms and undulations, especially if you catch it dry.
I saw many things I really liked, and noticed many things I hadn't in my three rounds-especially on the holes I had played well, where you only notice the fairway and green if you stripe it.


Sean is correct about the soil. After being so fiery Thursday-Friday, the greens were puddling severely.
It seemed very odd to me that SOOO many of the pins were located on the lower areas of the green given the 100% rain forecast.
There were high points on very green that were high and dry, but the pins always seemed near a puddle.
Watching the officials instruct maintenance crew to squeegee water uphill was comical.


A great event to be a part of and Gleneagles Kings is certainly a fine golf course well worth playing.
In fact my first trip over where I did not play a links.
3 rounds at Blaigowrie Rosemount, 3 at Kings and one at Pitlochry.


Attended the Highland Games yesterday-stumbled on them en route to Glencoe, and stumbled on a mountain bike race there at the ski resort. Interesting day, culminating with a walk around Dalrigh battleground where Robert The Bruce supposedly threw his sword in a loch.


Just walked all 9 at Comrie and took some pictures.
very overcast and arrived at 8pm.
My kind've place with really cool greens benched into various corners of the property.
I could definitely see playing many a post dinner(with eating being the hardest thing to do in rural Scotland) round here for a magical end to a summer evening.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2022, 04:56:17 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Brian_Ewen

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Re: Gleneagles Kings Course Changes
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2022, 05:07:21 PM »
Jeff, thanks for that.

Philip Caccamise

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Re: Gleneagles Kings Course Changes
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2022, 02:54:52 AM »
I have not been to Gleneagles (fantastic on TV!), but the announcers kept calling it a heathland course. Isn't it really a moorland course? And one of the best of that sub-category?


If you take the wider definition of heathland, then moorland is a subset, pertaining to upland, wet heathland (as opposed to lowland and dry heath). But possibly it’s better represented by a Venn diagram with some crossover between them.


Gleneagles is wet heath. A lot of the vegetation is similar (heather), the soil is acidic, just not sand.
ao


Brilliant. Thank you both.

Brilliant. Thank you both.

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