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JohnVDB

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Re: Sand at Southern Hills and sand in general
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2022, 07:24:27 PM »
Heard one announcer comment how the sand is tougher for the pros who canít spin it like usual, but the members are fine with it since they canít generally spin the ball out of bunkers.

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand at Southern Hills and sand in general
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2022, 09:03:30 PM »
"Ian Poulter told guys to stay out of the sand."  Brilliant.  I'm surely not the only one with that thought.


jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand at Southern Hills and sand in general
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2022, 09:29:21 PM »
No, I think it was Duval who said the bunker play had been better today than yesterday and he WONDERED if they added sand over night. I find it hard to believe that.


Given the wind, wouldn't surprise me at all.
We lose a LOT of sand in wind events, and it would seem natural to carefully add some sand where needed.

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mike_Trenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand at Southern Hills and sand in general
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2022, 10:38:02 PM »
No, I think it was Duval who said the bunker play had been better today than yesterday and he WONDERED if they added sand over night. I find it hard to believe that.


Given the wind, wouldn't surprise me at all.
We lose a LOT of sand in wind events, and it would seem natural to carefully add some sand where needed.


My guess is that


1) the players are learning tricks on how to play the shots, a caddie at PVGC once gave me three little changes on how to play the then very firm bunkers there and it made all the difference.


2) the limitless volunteer green crew members may have raked the bunkers in a different manner today to loosen up the surface.
Proud member of a Doak 3.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand at Southern Hills and sand in general
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2022, 07:06:24 PM »
I have seen nothing but good splashy bunker shots today, the kind I teach with plenty of margin for error.
yes they spin less, but spin is usually the enemy of good bunker play for all but the elite, and don't HAVE to be played that way-and the marging for error is thin, especially in variable types and depths of sand.


Rather than hitting SO close to the ball, simply hit 2-4 inches behind and exit 2-4 inches past, with the intended low point being exactly underneath the ball)How big the area is depends upon the texture of the sand(expose more bounce in soft sand) and the speed of one's swing. (an 80 year old woman would need to hit closer and swing harder)
Stop the ball with height-it's far more predictable than spin, unless you play on the fake crushed quartz that has become the go to for the PGA Tour, and have tons of talent and technique.
If you were going to throw the ball on the green from a deep bunker, I don't think you'd try to spin it.
Let it roll predictably based on height. Thinner, firmer sand will naturally create more spin(and less height)




Bubba is excelling in bunkers today-I'd say Ian better get used to sand given his soon to be home in the desert.


Have the bunkers gotten better?, or the players just adapted.
I've seen nothing but good shots.
First round I have watched.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2022, 07:11:06 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Sand at Southern Hills and sand in general
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2022, 02:44:31 PM »
I love what I have usually called "river sand," not the crushed-marble, bright-white powder that you see on too many courses these days.  Since when did a sand bunker become a powder bunker?  These are supposed to be hazards, so who cares if these became tougher.  The grains of sand were larger in the old sand--and therefore maybe less consistent--but is that bad in a hazard?  It is the same for all. 
I recall that the bunkers of my youth were filed with river sand.  How and when and why did that change?

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand at Southern Hills and sand in general
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2022, 07:31:46 PM »
Jim,


I agree with your point, and I am not a historian of bunker sand, but my guess is that as the most known and viewed course in the US, ANGC had a sizable impact on bunker sand.


Ira

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand at Southern Hills and sand in general
« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2022, 07:28:07 PM »

I agree with your point, and I am not a historian of bunker sand, but my guess is that as the most known and viewed course in the US, ANGC had a sizable impact on bunker sand.



I have a minor in the history of bunker sand.


Up through the 1980's, nearly all courses sourced bunker sand from the nearest quarry.  There were some guidelines as to the best range of particle sizes, but clubs took what they could get.  The 'river sand' Jim Hoak describes was common in Texas and Oklahoma.


In the 1990's it started to change.  Jack Nicklaus was building courses all around the country, and decided that the sand he'd gotten for some projects in the Midwest - from the Best Sand Company outside of Cleveland - was the best quality he'd seen, so he started specifying it for courses as far south as Florida.  Tom Fazio actually built a course adjacent to the Best Sand quarry, and he started specifying it everywhere, too.  And naturally every other club who wanted the best conditions followed.


PGA TOUR players have always wanted for conditions to be as consistent as possible from week to week, so they don't have to adjust their games to different green speeds, different bunker sand, etc.  In the 80's they experimented with wetting agents and other techniques to get the sand at outlier courses to be more consistent -- I did an article for GOLF Magazine about that, and interviewed David Eger, who was the setup man for the Tour at that time.  David said he spent more time and brain damage working on the bunker sand at clubs than any other topic.  Eventually, the Tour also started recommending replacing all the bunker sand with the best material possible.  The fact that it also made bunker play easier for the pros was just a side effect.


* NOTE that not everyone follows along.  Many of the clubs where we have done restorations insist on using the most expensive bunker sand they can find.  However at places like Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes, Barnbougle, and Sand Valley, you are playing out of the sand that we exposed when the bunker was dug -- unless they've had to fill the bunker back up from a nearby pit because of wind erosion!

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand at Southern Hills and sand in general
« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2022, 08:33:07 PM »

I agree with your point, and I am not a historian of bunker sand, but my guess is that as the most known and viewed course in the US, ANGC had a sizable impact on bunker sand.

However at places like Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes, Barnbougle, and Sand Valley, you are playing out of the sand that we exposed when the bunker was dug -- unless they've had to fill the bunker back up from a nearby pit because of wind erosion!


Tom-Have you had clients balk at using sand that was indigenous to the site? For the architect and construction guys it must be quite a bonus to be able to go that route.

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand at Southern Hills and sand in general
« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2022, 09:40:14 PM »
I guess I'm a contrarian on bunkers and the sand therein.  I've always thought (to the extent I ever think about it) of bunkers as hazards to be avoided.  It follows that they should be difficult to get out of.  The idea of easing play from the bunkers, for hacks or pros, appalls me.  Use whatever sand is handy, and don't put out rakes for smoothing during play.  A ball ends up in an old footprint.  Tough luck buddy, you shouldn't have hit it there.  I was spectating a significant tournament of some sort once and an official remarked that a player (or caddy?) had raked a bunker incorrectly -- I guessing with the grooves going in the "wrong direction." Give me a break.

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