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Tommy Williamsen

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Sand at Southern Hills and sand in general
« on: May 20, 2022, 01:26:23 AM »
Ian Poulter told guys to stay out of the sand. I guess the coarse nature of the sand diminishes the spin the players can get.
I have found less consistency between courses of the sand of late. The sand at Ballyhack is native to the site and is very different from the native sand at Dormie. I like having the same sand from course to course but different sand makes bunkers hazards.
That think ye?
Tom Williamsen
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand at Southern Hills and sand in general
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2022, 03:20:11 AM »
Sand native to the site is fine.
Bunkers cost a bunch of money to look after and insisting on consistent sand likely graded and trucked in from a distance is another cost, one worth thinking about the next time subs/greenfees are considered.
atb

Niall C

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Re: Sand at Southern Hills and sand in general
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2022, 05:20:14 AM »
I watched a bit of it last night and it seems that the coarseness is one point of difference to what they normally play but also it appeared in a couple of instances that it wasn't as deep as they were expecting and that they bottomed out with their shots. I presume that is more a maintenance issue rather than design issue ?


Niall


archie_struthers

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Re: Sand at Southern Hills and sand in general
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2022, 06:37:16 AM »
 8) :P


In the vast minority who feels that bunkers are hazards and not a reward for an offline shot. Also would opt for less is more when it comes to sand and would try to insure an absence of plugged lies if possible. Firm and hard works for me on both the course and bunkers as a rule. Very few agree so it's a personal like. Members complaints over bunkers seems endemic to the species .


Perhaps it's because in learning the game in my late teens even PVGC didn't worry about the bunkers to the extent that many do today. Make sure they drain , no plugs , and don't but grasses in them would be my personal mantra.






jeffwarne

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Re: Sand at Southern Hills and sand in general
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2022, 07:05:09 AM »
Many I should start a different thread about what kind've lakes and streams players prefer to play out of....


Insisting on, or even preferring the same kind've sand from course to course negates the skill involved in judgement of the lie, control of the blade/bounce, and yes the rub of the green variables involved when you challenge or stray into a bunker.




Homogonization is the enemy of varied and unique architecture, and taking it a step further to maintenance in hazards diminishes the strategy and role of such a hazard, while simultaneously adding expense and future expectations of perfection and control in all places while playing what used to be an outdoor game.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Bill Brightly

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Re: Sand at Southern Hills and sand in general
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2022, 08:28:25 AM »
I loved watching the players struggle to get it up and down from the sand hazards yesterday!


I am reminded of when I was Grounds Chair at my club and a former club champion was complaining to me about the inconsistency of our sand. I kept saying I didn't see any problems and he kept trying to explain it. Finally he said "Bill, it's getting to the point where I'm standing in the fairway consciously thinking don't hit it in there." I didn't say anything, and he smiled and said "I guess that's the point, huh?" BINGO!

Tom_Doak

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Re: Sand at Southern Hills and sand in general
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2022, 09:33:56 AM »
I have not been watching the tournament [I'm working this week], but it's interesting to hear this has been a topic.  I do remember from the events in the 1970's that Southern Hills' sand was notoriously different than bunker sand in other places, and it was a major topic of conversation at the events won by Ray Floyd and Hubert Green.  It's rare to find it a topic of conversation nowadays, because most big clubs have spent $$$$$ to make the sand "playable" [easier] for members.

Bill Brightly

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Re: Sand at Southern Hills and sand in general
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2022, 09:44:05 AM »
It is really interesting to watch the bunker play. The pros have what appears to be "stock" bunker shots that I expect them to get within three feet more times than not, but they end up outside ten feet.

mike_malone

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Re: Sand at Southern Hills and sand in general
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2022, 10:14:42 AM »
What were they doing in practice rounds?
Donít your feet give you information about the sand?


 Shut up!!!!í
AKA Mayday

Dan_Callahan

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Re: Sand at Southern Hills and sand in general
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2022, 10:19:43 AM »
One of the interesting/difficult things I found at Maidstone was that there was a big difference between the bunker sand and the beach/dunes sand. On those holes that go out to the ocean, often there would be both types in areas around a green, and part of the challenge was figuring out which kind of sand you were in. Can't say I loved it or hated it ... just found it to be a very different experience.

John Blain

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Re: Sand at Southern Hills and sand in general
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2022, 10:25:52 AM »
During his press conference Woods was asked about the bunkers and his answer was "The sand is a lot faster than I thought it was going to be."  Now I know Woods has his own lexicon (reps, water balls, sight lines, explosiveness, etc) but in all my days I have never heard anyone describe bunker sand as "fast."
Any thoughts?

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand at Southern Hills and sand in general
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2022, 10:57:05 AM »
The grain size of the sand at Southern Hills is a lot larger than the fine powder like sand we typically see on tour. I'd imagine Tiger's comment is about how his club goes through the sand faster than anticipated due to the large grain size.

Its been nice to see how a different sand in the bunkers and a slower green speed has impacted the play of the players. Although, watching the coverage this morning, the players seem to be adjusting to the sand quickly.

Peter Flory

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Re: Sand at Southern Hills and sand in general
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2022, 10:58:45 AM »
During his press conference Woods was asked about the bunkers and his answer was "The sand is a lot faster than I thought it was going to be."  Now I know Woods has his own lexicon (reps, water balls, sight lines, explosiveness, etc) but in all my days I have never heard anyone describe bunker sand as "fast."
Any thoughts?


That was my thought in watching them play out of it.  The ball just comes out faster and releases more.  So, players can effectively put a swing on it that would otherwise be good for a much shorter bunker shot. 

Rob Marshall

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Re: Sand at Southern Hills and sand in general
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2022, 12:11:57 PM »
They can adapt to different greens each week, they should be able to adapt to different sand.


Pretty sure I read it here but it was one of those obvious things that had flown over my heard for the almost 50 years I've been playing golf. "putting on slow greens is a skill". Same would be true for playing from bunkers.


Covid has me watching golf during the work week and I have to say the course looks spectacular on TV.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2022, 12:14:04 PM by Rob Marshall »
"I used to get pissed at blowing leads until I quit having them" John Kavanaugh

Peter Flory

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Re: Sand at Southern Hills and sand in general
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2022, 12:29:02 PM »
I would think that the players should switch to a lower bounce SW for this sand.  But I'd curious as to how many of them actually did change their equipment vs just try to adjust their technique.

Ben Hollerbach

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Re: Sand at Southern Hills and sand in general
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2022, 12:44:45 PM »
They can adapt to different greens each week, they should be able to adapt to different sand.

But they really don't have too.
The PGA tour has prescribed so much about course setup that green speed's from week to week are virtually identical. And nearly every course on tour uses some variety of white silica sand.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Sand at Southern Hills and sand in general
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2022, 01:46:43 PM »
Typically those brown/buff sands from this area are finer, or at least rounder particles than the Silica sands from Ohio or Arkansas.  When I got out on the course, I was surprised to see they aren't the typical white.  I noticed that some of the steeper banks, like the front left of no. 4 green appeared to have some kind of polymer on the bank to help hold sand up.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach


Rob Marshall

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Re: Sand at Southern Hills and sand in general
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2022, 02:46:25 PM »
They can adapt to different greens each week, they should be able to adapt to different sand.

But they really don't have too.
The PGA tour has prescribed so much about course setup that green speed's from week to week are virtually identical. And nearly every course on tour uses some variety of white silica sand.


I was referring to the type of grass not just the speed.
"I used to get pissed at blowing leads until I quit having them" John Kavanaugh

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Sand at Southern Hills and sand in general
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2022, 03:11:06 PM »
I would think that the players should switch to a lower bounce SW for this sand.  But I'd curious as to how many of them actually did change their equipment vs just try to adjust their technique.


Interesting I was thinking more bounce with a bigger flange.
Tom Williamsen
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

Jim Sherma

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Re: Sand at Southern Hills and sand in general
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2022, 03:39:34 PM »
Not sure I heard it right but did they say that they added sand into the bunkers since yesterday?

Rob Marshall

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Re: Sand at Southern Hills and sand in general
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2022, 03:42:46 PM »
No, I think it was Duval who said the bunker play had been better today than yesterday and he WONDERED if they added sand over night. I find it hard to believe that.
"I used to get pissed at blowing leads until I quit having them" John Kavanaugh

PPallotta

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand at Southern Hills and sand in general
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2022, 03:45:54 PM »
I would think that the players should switch to a lower bounce SW for this sand.  But I'd curious as to how many of them actually did change their equipment vs just try to adjust their technique.
Interesting I was thinking more bounce with a bigger flange.
I was thinking a vintage Ben Hogan 'Sure Out' sand wedge would come in handy.

Re: the bunker sand at Southern Hills - at least all the bunkers at Southern Hills itself, one compared to another, play alike. I can only dream of that kind of consistency!


Thomas Dai

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Re: Sand at Southern Hills and sand in general
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2022, 04:17:10 PM »
Read on social media that the SHGC Supt when questioned replied that the bunker sand had come from Ohio. Long way. Sounds expen$ive. Wonder if they are also using the same sand type for the Ďtargetí sandpits on the practice ground?
Atb

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