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JohnVDB

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Re: Golfing going on at Southern Hills.
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2022, 08:49:16 PM »
For years I've declined to pay $7 a month for ESPN+ but I ponied it up yesterday. Coverage has been excellent with a choice of three featured groups plus regular feed. I highly recommend it.


My girlfriend recently renewed her cell phone with Verizon and got Hulu, ESPN+ and Disney included.  I got HBOMax with ATT phone so we’ve got things covered.  ESPN+ is  a definite plus.

John McCarthy

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Re: Golfing going on at Southern Hills.
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2022, 07:49:26 AM »
For years I've declined to pay $7 a month for ESPN+ but I ponied it up yesterday. Coverage has been excellent with a choice of three featured groups plus regular feed. I highly recommend it.


HBOMax comes with my ATT fiber.  Watched Killing of a.Chinese Bookie this week - never saw it before.  It was excellent.


My girlfriend recently renewed her cell phone with Verizon and got Hulu, ESPN+ and Disney included.  I got HBOMax with ATT phone so we’ve got things covered.  ESPN+ is  a definite plus.
The only way of really finding out a man's true character is to play golf with him. In no other walk of life does the cloven hoof so quickly display itself.
 PG Wodehouse

John Kirk

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Re: Golfing going on at Southern Hills.
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2022, 04:42:20 PM »
Southern Hills was ranked as the #38 Classic course by Golfweek last May.

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/lists/top-200-classic-golf-courses-built-before-1960/

How did the four experts rate the course in the Confidential Guide? All 7s? My book is temporarily in storage.


I'm enjoying the tournament, but I find the course less charming than the typical major venue, and believe it is best described as relentlessly difficult. It seems like a "fair" test that doesn't favor a certain type of golfer.



Bill Brightly

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Re: Golfing going on at Southern Hills.
« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2022, 02:11:45 PM »


How did the four experts rate the course in the Confidential Guide? All 7s? My book is temporarily in storage.



7-8-7-6 but that was in 2013, before Hanse restoration. Have to believe it would be a tick higher now.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Golfing going on at Southern Hills.
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2022, 02:32:17 PM »
Southern Hills was ranked as the #38 Classic course by Golfweek last May.

I'm enjoying the tournament, but I find the course less charming than the typical major venue, and believe it is best described as relentlessly difficult. It seems like a "fair" test that doesn't favor a certain type of golfer.

John,

Spooky how often we agree.  I felt same watching first 3 days, and a quick look on Bing Maps reveals:

1)  Each green averages just shy of 4 bunkers (3.94 at 71 total).  They look fairly deep and menacing and provide a relentless ask to "hit it here or else" on after hole after hole.
2)  6 holes have 5 or more greenside bunkers and every green except 1 , (eighth) has at least 1 fronting bunker that must be at least partially carried.
3)  Over half the holes have water in play on the drive or the approach.

I'm sure its a great members club and they got a good thing going but does not appear appetizing for daily play.

John Kirk

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Re: Golfing going on at Southern Hills.
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2022, 04:00:32 PM »


How did the four experts rate the course in the Confidential Guide? All 7s? My book is temporarily in storage.



7-8-7-6 but that was in 2013, before Hanse restoration. Have to believe it would be a tick higher now.


Ran's an easy grader as usual.  LOL  Darius is less enamored with American parkland courses than most analysts.

Tom D. has said before he doesn't think a restoration/renovation generally merits a change in rating, but recent pictures of other Hanse restoration projects (Waverley, LACC) seem to improve the courses dramatically.

John Kirk

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Re: Golfing going on at Southern Hills.
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2022, 04:13:17 PM »
Southern Hills was ranked as the #38 Classic course by Golfweek last May.

I'm enjoying the tournament, but I find the course less charming than the typical major venue, and believe it is best described as relentlessly difficult. It seems like a "fair" test that doesn't favor a certain type of golfer.

John,

Spooky how often we agree.  I felt same watching first 3 days, and a quick look on Bing Maps reveals:

1)  Each green averages just shy of 4 bunkers (3.94 at 71 total).  They look fairly deep and menacing and provide a relentless ask to "hit it here or else" on after hole after hole.
2)  6 holes have 5 or more greenside bunkers and every green except 1 , (eighth) has at least 1 fronting bunker that must be at least partially carried.
3)  Over half the holes have water in play on the drive or the approach.

I'm sure its a great members club and they got a good thing going but does not appear appetizing for daily play.

Spooky indeed!

It probably is a good member's course.  It would depend a fair amount on where the typical mowing lines are.  It looks like a beautiful walk.  I checked the USGA database.  The course ratings are 78.2/142 from the back, then 74.7/139 from the blues and 72.2/134 from the third set of tees.

To accommodate these pro players, the setup is quite congested in areas.

In addition to having a full complement of hazards, most of the greens are perched up on high spots.  The era quite a few big dropoffs from the green that are mowed close so the ball rolls down and away.  It's kind of like Pinehurst that way.

There aren't a lot of "wow!" spectator moments where a player plays away from the hole and the balls trickles down to the target.

Carl Johnson

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Re: Golfing going on at Southern Hills.
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2022, 10:40:16 PM »
"restoration, renovation, restoration, and redesign"  Is there someplace where the golf gods have definitively defined each of these terms so that they can be fairly applied in practice?

Bill Brightly

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Re: Golfing going on at Southern Hills.
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2022, 09:28:50 AM »


Tom D. has said before he doesn't think a restoration/renovation generally merits a change in rating, but recent pictures of other Hanse restoration projects (Waverley, LACC) seem to improve the courses dramatically.


That is interesting. I would think the TD would approve of the re-worked green edge runoffs that played such a critical role in how the players could safely approach most of the pins. We saw so many shots that landed on the wrong side roll all the way down steep slopes. Whether you like that or not, it would seem to justify a change in rating, no?

Carl Johnson

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Re: Golfing going on at Southern Hills.
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2022, 10:32:02 AM »
"restoration, renovation, restoration, and redesign"  Is there someplace where the golf architecture gods have definitively defined each of these terms so that they can be fairly applied in practice?

John Kirk

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Re: Golfing going on at Southern Hills.
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2022, 12:22:35 PM »
"restoration, renovation, restoration, and redesign"  Is there someplace where the golf gods have definitively defined each of these terms so that they can be fairly applied in practice?

I did hear that the 7th green was moved 40-50 yards back to a place much nearer a creek, so that is definitely a redesign.  Restoration implies the course is restored to its original form.  I don't know the history of the course, but I'd guess the changes were mostly a restoration, but also involved some changes in mowing lines.





That is interesting. I would think the TD would approve of the re-worked green edge runoffs that played such a critical role in how the players could safely approach most of the pins. We saw so many shots that landed on the wrong side roll all the way down steep slopes. Whether you like that or not, it would seem to justify a change in rating, no?



It's not clear to me whether the ball rolling off steep slopes is due to a structural change or just that the grass has been mowed close.  I'm guessing the latter is true in most cases.


One thing about Southern Hills.  It sure makes players bend the ball both ways off the tee.  On the 18th hole, they are often required to hit a sharp fade with a mid-iron, which I think is very difficult.  And Nick Zalatoris and Justin Thomas both make these plays rather effortlessly.  It's really impressive.


It may seem I'm knocking Southern Hills.  For the record, now that the PGA plays in May, it has to be the best venue for a major tournament in that region of the country, isn't it?

Finally, Justin Thomas played beautifully yesterday, didn't he?  He was really locked in.  It was a great comeback win.




Kalen Braley

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Re: Golfing going on at Southern Hills.
« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2022, 12:47:13 PM »
John,

It was an odd final day of the tourney for sure.  Justin makes a huge comeback win despite starting the day 7 shots back and hitting a stone cold shank during his round.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfkHDFL8NvA

P.S. I think Mito would have been champ had he just made that birdie putt on 17.  Then he could have hit iron, iron, wedge on 18 for a fairly easy bogey and win. Guess he was doing a Phil @WingedFoot impression...




Ira Fishman

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Re: Golfing going on at Southern Hills.
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2022, 01:47:32 PM »
I thought the course required the players to hit a variety of shots, including moving the ball in both directions and precise wedges and short irons. One aspect that deserves more attention is playing on bermuda. It makes bomb and gouge less of an option and challenges the short game in ways the Pros do not see very frequently.


Ira

JohnVDB

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Re: Golfing going on at Southern Hills.
« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2022, 04:41:09 PM »
The thing that surprised me was how poor the chipping was in general all week.  I can’t remember seeing so many chips and pitches either coming up way short of the hole or running past and off the greens.


Also, I know it was windy, but how far wide players were missing shots their approach shots. 

John Kirk

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Re: Golfing going on at Southern Hills.
« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2022, 07:56:28 PM »
The thing that surprised me was how poor the chipping was in general all week.  I can’t remember seeing so many chips and pitches either coming up way short of the hole or running past and off the greens.


Also, I know it was windy, but how far wide players were missing shots their approach shots.

Yes, that was very noticeable.  When pros are missing their lines so badly, you know the greens are very hard to read.  Pereira's chip on 18, when he absolutely had to get it close, was six to eight feet wide of the proper line.  The bermuda grass makes it hard to judge speed.  I get that, but the green slopes were really tricky.

Ken Moum

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Re: Golfing going on at Southern Hills.
« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2022, 10:34:11 AM »
The thing that surprised me was how poor the chipping was in general all week.  I can’t remember seeing so many chips and pitches either coming up way short of the hole or running past and off the greens.


Also, I know it was windy, but how far wide players were missing shots their approach shots.


Listening to PGA Tour Radio all week while traveling north I heard several hosts or analysts say that the grain in the short-grass approaches was going to make judging speed extraordinarily difficult for chips and putts.


One of the Paulsons said seeing someone grab a putter from more than a couple of feet off the green made him cringe.


Similarly they were saying judging the bounce on bump-and-run shots was going to be a big gamble.


And all of that was started before anyone teed off on Thursday.
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

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