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Ben Hollerbach

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Imagine you had a site that was ~70 acres. Would it be better to construct a 3,400 yard 9 hole course or an 18 hole exec course with 11 par 3's and 7 par 4's?

jeffwarne

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Re: Compact Site: What type of course would you rather play.
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2022, 10:15:30 AM »
Imagine you had a site that was ~70 acres. Would it be better to construct a 3,400 yard 9 hole course or an 18 hole exec course with 11 par 3's and 7 par 4's?

I am;)
9 holer IMHO with a good practice area
Potential to be good to great and fun to go round and round.
19 greens cost more $$ than 10 or 11.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2022, 01:41:00 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Thomas Dai

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Re: Compact Site: What type of course would you rather play.
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2022, 10:55:33 AM »
9-hole with reversible routing and good practice facilities.
Atb

Kalen Braley

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Re: Compact Site: What type of course would you rather play.
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2022, 11:19:41 AM »
9 hole short course with:

Pool
Pickle Ball Courts
Tennis Courts
Massive on site facilities with gym, meeting center, bar. etc
Valet Parking

Ben Hollerbach

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Re: Compact Site: What type of course would you rather play.
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2022, 02:26:47 PM »
9 hole short course with:

Pool
Pickle Ball Courts
Tennis Courts
Massive on site facilities with gym, meeting center, bar. etc
Valet Parking


Would your answer change if this was a stand alone public venue?

Mark Kiely

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Re: Compact Site: What type of course would you rather play.
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2022, 02:49:59 PM »
Personally I'd rather have the 3,400-yard 9 holer. But from a business standpoint, would either option fill a void in the local market?


Btw, I think Kalen's response was meant to be a joke.
My golf course photo albums on Flickr: https://goo.gl/dWPF9z

Kalen Braley

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Re: Compact Site: What type of course would you rather play.
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2022, 02:53:02 PM »
9 hole short course with:

Pool
Pickle Ball Courts
Tennis Courts
Massive on site facilities with gym, meeting center, bar. etc
Valet Parking

Would your answer change if this was a stand alone public venue?

I was being flippant of course, but actually yes.

A public venue, assuming mostly subsidized by tax payer dollars, I think this model would make more sense to serve the most amount of people (minus the valet parking and add in playground) vs a golf-only facility that serves a small niche of the population)

Bernie Bell

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Re: Compact Site: What type of course would you rather play.
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2022, 02:57:40 PM »
Compare with Audubon in New Orleans.  4200 yards, 18 holes, par 62.  Not sure of the acreage, but can't be much more than 70 cares.  Also, why not 12 holes? 

PPallotta

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Re: Compact Site: What type of course would you rather play.
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2022, 03:18:15 PM »
Ben - for me a key to an enjoyable round of golf is variety, so I wouldn't be a fan of playing 11 Par 3s (or even just 9 of them, for that matter, as with the many short courses being built these days). Conversely, I think a 3400 yard 9-hole course ideal -- offering me all the benefits and variety of a 'regulation' course in half the time. When I lived nearby, one of my favourite places to play was the Classic Nine course at Doon Valley, a Kitchener municipal. Kudos to you for working on a compact site and considering a 'full' 9 holer -- a sane, healthy and much needed 'counterpoint' to the 500+ acre resort model.

jeffwarne

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Re: Compact Site: What type of course would you rather play.
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2022, 03:44:57 PM »
Ben - for me a key to an enjoyable round of golf is variety, so I wouldn't be a fan of playing 11 Par 3s (or even just 9 of them, for that matter, as with the many short courses being built these days). Conversely, I think a 3400 yard 9-hole course ideal -- offering me all the benefits and variety of a 'regulation' course in half the time. When I lived nearby, one of my favourite places to play was the Classic Nine course at Doon Valley, a Kitchener municipal. Kudos to you for working on a compact site and considering a 'full' 9 holer -- a sane, healthy and much needed 'counterpoint' to the 500+ acre resort model.


this

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

JMEvensky

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Re: Compact Site: What type of course would you rather play.
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2022, 04:00:52 PM »
Ben - for me a key to an enjoyable round of golf is variety, so I wouldn't be a fan of playing 11 Par 3s (or even just 9 of them, for that matter, as with the many short courses being built these days). Conversely, I think a 3400 yard 9-hole course ideal -- offering me all the benefits and variety of a 'regulation' course in half the time. When I lived nearby, one of my favourite places to play was the Classic Nine course at Doon Valley, a Kitchener municipal. Kudos to you for working on a compact site and considering a 'full' 9 holer -- a sane, healthy and much needed 'counterpoint' to the 500+ acre resort model.


this


this (2)

Ben Hollerbach

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Re: Compact Site: What type of course would you rather play.
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2022, 04:18:32 PM »
Compare with Audubon in New Orleans.  4200 yards, 18 holes, par 62.  Not sure of the acreage, but can't be much more than 70 cares.  Also, why not 12 holes?


No opposition to 12 holes here, but for 12 to be successful I believe it would need to be near a par 48 +/- 2. Meaning it would still need to be predominantly par 4ís with a good mix of accompanying 3ís and 5ís.


 For the sake of this discussion, The property I have in mind could fit a ~3,400 9 hole up to a ~3,800 18 hole exec. My biggest concern with trying to build a 12 hole course is the additional 3 holes would most likely require losing a par 4 or par 5 and replacing it with 4 par 3ís. Is a 12 hole course with 6 par 3ís 5 par 4ís and 1 par 5 more, less, or the same as a ďregularĒ 9 hole course or 18 hole exec course? My concerns is at that point it would drift into the exec standing.

Jeff Schley

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Re: Compact Site: What type of course would you rather play.
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2022, 04:24:55 PM »
I agree with those that are in favor of a 9 hole course, but experiment with double greens and alternate tees to be able to have 18 holes perhaps. Need some different tee boxes. Then a large range and short game area. Putting course would be nice, but maybe too expensive to maintain.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Sean_A

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Re: Compact Site: What type of course would you rather play.
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2022, 05:03:45 PM »
Compare with Audubon in New Orleans.  4200 yards, 18 holes, par 62.  Not sure of the acreage, but can't be much more than 70 cares.  Also, why not 12 holes?

No opposition to 12 holes here, but for 12 to be successful I believe it would need to be near a par 48 +/- 2. Meaning it would still need to be predominantly par 4ís with a good mix of accompanying 3ís and 5ís.

 For the sake of this discussion, The property I have in mind could fit a ~3,400 9 hole up to a ~3,800 18 hole exec. My biggest concern with trying to build a 12 hole course is the additional 3 holes would most likely require losing a par 4 or par 5 and replacing it with 4 par 3ís. Is a 12 hole course with 6 par 3ís 5 par 4ís and 1 par 5 more, less, or the same as a ďregularĒ 9 hole course or 18 hole exec course? My concerns is at that point it would drift into the exec standing.

I would prefer a 9 hole or however many good holes you can fit. Would need at least two starting points though. Not bothered about 3400 length. Could easily be 3000 or even less if the right holes built. Not bothered about a par 5 unless it was very good. Even a good one I would skip in favour of good 4s and 3s. Not worried about a fancy putting green. If there is space without losing a good hole, thats fine. If there is space I would like horse shoe pits, petanque and croquet. Small house that is able to use outdoor ground in good weather....likely spreading around two sides of the house near the non-golf amenities.

This type of set up is what I had in mind. Very simple. The 1st tee is essentially where the photo was taken from. 
 

Petanque court doesn't take much space. Same for horse pits.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Bamburgh Castle, Erewash, Gullane 2, The Loop x2 & Crystal Downs

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Compact Site: What type of course would you rather play.
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2022, 01:36:02 AM »
Compare with Audubon in New Orleans.  4200 yards, 18 holes, par 62.  Not sure of the acreage, but can't be much more than 70 cares.  Also, why not 12 holes?


No opposition to 12 holes here, but for 12 to be successful I believe it would need to be near a par 48 +/- 2. Meaning it would still need to be predominantly par 4ís with a good mix of accompanying 3ís and 5ís.


 For the sake of this discussion, The property I have in mind could fit a ~3,400 9 hole up to a ~3,800 18 hole exec. My biggest concern with trying to build a 12 hole course is the additional 3 holes would most likely require losing a par 4 or par 5 and replacing it with 4 par 3ís. Is a 12 hole course with 6 par 3ís 5 par 4ís and 1 par 5 more, less, or the same as a ďregularĒ 9 hole course or 18 hole exec course? My concerns is at that point it would drift into the exec standing.


What kind of a 70 acre site is it, Ben? I could swing either way dependent on site (but would certainly veer to the 9 hole course option all things equal).

archie_struthers

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Re: Compact Site: What type of course would you rather play.
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2022, 06:55:43 AM »
 8)


I think ten holes with a short game area would work well....something about balance makes me like 10.  Have a card with front and back "fives" !  ;D

Peter Sayegh

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Re: Compact Site: What type of course would you rather play.
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2022, 09:06:33 AM »
Imagine you had a site that was ~70 acres. Would it be better to construct a 3,400 yard 9 hole course or an 18 hole exec course with 11 par 3's and 7 par 4's?
I'll leave the architecture/land restraints to the experts but I've grown to demand a layout that will require/welcome/entice driver or three wood at least once.

Ben Hollerbach

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Re: Compact Site: What type of course would you rather play.
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2022, 09:53:39 AM »


What kind of a 70 acre site is it, Ben? I could swing either way dependent on site (but would certainly veer to the 9 hole course option all things equal).
Ally,

It's a roughly rectangular site, 1000 yards long, 350 yards at the wide end, 290 yards at the narrow end. Topographically there is a 1 acre pond that nearly divides the property in half. The short edges of the property are the highest points, with the pond being a low point creating a V shape to the property. From the high point to the low point there is a 75' elevation difference. Imagine a 40% East Lake, but with a more stretched out aspect ratio.

Peter Flory

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Re: Compact Site: What type of course would you rather play.
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2022, 11:29:16 AM »
9-hole with reversible routing and good practice facilities.
Atb


I have been thinking that the reversible course's best usage would be for 9 holes x 2 on a restricted site. 

Carl Johnson

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Re: Compact Site: What type of course would you rather play.
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2022, 03:41:29 PM »
Assuming the lay of the land would suit either, 9 holes.  However, I also kind of like Archie's suggestion for a 10 hole course.

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Compact Site: What type of course would you rather play.
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2022, 04:27:23 PM »
Archie & Sean would like what we're working on!
We do have more than 70 acres.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil & Tiger.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Compact Site: What type of course would you rather play.
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2022, 05:15:32 AM »
Commercially 18 holes every time. 9 hole golf courses are very difficult to make money out of. THE ROUND is still 18 holes, only a small percentage of people want 9 holes or want to play twice.


The worst 18 hole course is always better than the best 9 hole course is the default position if you don't want to go bust.


The architecture of good or bad is another thing though and most here will want 'ggod'. You can still do that though on shorter courses. I think if you build say a par 68 course with 6 or 8 par 3 holes, A par 3 occupies about an acre, so you can get a lot in 70 acres, build 8 you only need to find 10 holes in 62 acres.


Nothing wrong in short courses.



A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Jesse Kodadek

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Re: Compact Site: What type of course would you rather play.
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2022, 10:51:19 AM »
Not sure that's the case if the courses are good. Sweetens and the Winter Park 9 seem to do all right. Also, Palma Ceia in Tampa has 18 holes on 82 acres, so 12 holes on 70 seems pretty feasible. PC does not have a real driving range, however.

Niall C

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Re: Compact Site: What type of course would you rather play.
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2022, 12:04:03 PM »
I'm not sure I know what an "exec" course is but wonder why you would restrict yourself to an either or scenario. Surely there are so many other options some of which would be more preferable than others depending on the other selection criteria.


For instance, for me, any practice facility would be restricted to a putting green and perhaps a small chipping area. No driving range required or indeed desired. Where I'm from a warm up comprises a cup of coffee and a bacon roll. A leisurely warm up comprises a cup of coffee and two bacon rolls.


And why does a 9 hole course have to be 3,400 yards ? Concentrate on the fun factor and forget the numbers. Some of the best/most fun nine holers I know don't need 70 acres. For instance;


St Medan    28 acres
Traigh     36 acres
Cambuslang  38 acres
Killin      38 acres
Covesea    33 acres
Rosehearty    27 acres
Strathtay     26 acres


And then you have the peerless Royal Worlington at 54 acres. Shiskine ? It comes in at a whopping 60 acres for 12 holes. Plenty of fun to be had in small packages, and no need for all the trimmings either.


Niall




Ben Hollerbach

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Re: Compact Site: What type of course would you rather play.
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2022, 12:30:01 PM »
I'm not sure I know what an "exec" course is but wonder why you would restrict yourself to an either or scenario. Surely there are so many other options some of which would be more preferable than others depending on the other selection criteria.
exec = Executive Course, or a course that's shorter than a standard golf course in one or more respects. It's usually comprised of more par-3 holes than are found on a typical golf course. in other words, an exec course is a par 3 course with a handful of par 4's and par 5's. In which those par 4's or par 5's would often be considered on the shorter length when compared to similar holes on a standard golf course.

Exec to 9 hole routing are not the only two option. I offered them as anchors on a spectrum for discussion and not a limitation of 2 choices.

And why does a 9 hole course have to be 3,400 yards ? Concentrate on the fun factor and forget the numbers.

Once again that was a reference for discussion based on what appears to fit within the property confines. 3,400 yards would represent an above average length 9 hole course and a value for consideration by the retail golfer.

Those that participate on this board have a much greater appreciation for atypical golf than the average retail golfer. If the course was positioned towards the average retail golfer, what would they care about on paper to persuade them in playing the course the first time?

Elements such as 9 holes vs 18; par 3 vs exec vs standard; yardage and par are all criteria they are familiar with. Even then they will weight those criteria differently when making a playing decision. That does not take an atypical execution off the table, i.e. 12 holes, but it can make it more challenging to market such a facility to the average retail golfer who is not familiar with the idea. For example, if 9 holes cost $30 and 18 holes cost $50, what should 12 holes cost in their eyes?

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