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jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair/Buck Club Near Aiken, SC
« Reply #175 on: August 13, 2021, 03:07:21 PM »
I suppose an important question might be, have you been paid for your routing?


Do you really think that's any of your business?


It does seem like kind of an offensive question, though I can't tell to whom the offense was intended.


Anyway, though it's none of your business, yes, I've been paid in full.  The last part of my fee was due when the funding was in place, so that's why I presume the funding is fully in place, even though that was really none of my business, so I had the good manners not to ask.  :D





RE: jeffwarne's questioning my question, are you Tom Doak's official secretary or self-appointed protector?  Tom, and you as well, have on more than a couple occasions touched upon sensitive subjects with such finesse that accusing me of being out-of-line or lacking proper manners is akin to the pot calling the kettle black.   




Lou,
My answer had nothing to with Tom Doak, nor did I find your comment offensive.
I still think that it is none of your business, nor appropriate for a Discussion Board.
It MIGHT be a reasonable question if a significant amount of time had passed since Tom visited and did the routing. But again, I didn't find your comment offensive, just not something I would answer on a message Board(at least not in the negative if minimal time had passed).
And as you mention, you DID spur discussion that verifies the project is going forward, so there is that.



I'm am curious as to what sensitive subjects I've been out of line on or lacked proper manners on and I would be more than happy to make amends.

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair/Buck Club Near Aiken, SC
« Reply #176 on: August 13, 2021, 03:33:22 PM »
Jeff,

While "how much" has not been asked on this site directly of an architect who gives this site the time of day, speculation on the fees charged by Fazio and Nicklaus has appeared numerous times.  We do seem to have our own version of a protected class, though behind the scenes, the preferred gentlemen too are at times ravaged by opposing factions.  I am ok with you and others believing I was out-of-line.  For my purposes, the question and answer did advance the subject matter: verification that a potentially exciting project is moving forward.


Lou,

I think there is a world of difference between speculating how much architects like Fazio and Jack make for their standard design fees vs asking an architect who happens to be a member of the DG if they got paid for a specific project.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair/Buck Club Near Aiken, SC
« Reply #177 on: August 13, 2021, 05:53:55 PM »
Kalen,


Why am I not surprised.  We live in very different worlds.


We have on occasion discussed people on this board NOT getting paid for their work.  I am fairly sure that Tom Doak has lamented doing work for free, and I know that Jeff Brauer has.


My simple question was only to qualify what Tom meant when he offered that the project had funded.  I didn't ask how much he was paid, that would not be any of my business.


I won't go into your distinction for members in this DG, other than to say that if we only have to play nice with those who give us the time of day while often savaging those who do not, maybe this isn't such a good site.  I know two or three architects who won't have anything to do with gca.com because the "open and frank" discussions seldom remain within the bounds of manners referenced earlier by Tom Doak.


jeffwarne,


I understand that you are the head professional of a well-known golf club in the Northeast.  Your several posts in this open Discussion Board castigating the USGA and presenting raters and the rating process in a very negative light are probably fine if you were a Joe Blow, but are they in your role as a club official?  Are such comments expressed in an open forum no matter how heartfelt they may be in the best interest of your club and your members?  Is there an objective in getting sideways with one of the two major ruling and organizing institutions in golf?  Judging by what you say about trying to accommodate raters, I must assume that your club wishes to be rated.  What purpose does relating your negative experiences with raters and rating panels on this open Discussion Group serve for your club.  I can see contacting the relevant folks at the USGA and the magazines with your informed insights, but pasting them here?


Having said all this, I am not offended by what you write- I do wonder about your judgement- or much care whether you accept my reason for asking Tom Doak if he got paid.  I just find it rather cheeky that you scold me for asking a short, simple question when you yourself delve in detail into subject matters which in your professional capacity are potentially offensive and damaging to your employers.


BTW, if your admonishment was not about Tom Doak, was it to protect the purity of this site?  Don't you think that that ship has sailed more than a decade ago?


We tolerate a lot here, and rightfully so.  I've been publicly savaged in this DG a couple of times to the extent of receiving several IMs, emails and calls asking me to take action.  But I am not one to censure or cancel.  Perhaps you missed those posts since I didn't see your comments to knock it off. 


           


 




Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair/Buck Club Near Aiken, SC
« Reply #178 on: August 13, 2021, 06:08:06 PM »
Kalen,

I won't go into your distinction for members in this DG, other than to say that if we only have to play nice with those who give us the time of day while often savaging those who do not, maybe this isn't such a good site.  I know two or three architects who won't have anything to do with gca.com because the "open and frank" discussions seldom remain within the bounds of manners referenced earlier by Tom Doak.
 


Lou,

This DG is one thing, but there is no double standard with me.

You haven't seen anything in the way of "savage" from me unlike a few co-workers who I lit into for asking similar questions in the work place concerning salary and bonuses.  My wife is the only one I've given such information but I figure she has a right to know.

However, that being said, I have seen some in the golf building biz come on here and offer up information like "Such and such project went under and I never got paid".  But once again, they volunteered that information....completely different scenario.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair/Buck Club Near Aiken, SC
« Reply #179 on: August 13, 2021, 08:27:32 PM »



jeffwarne,


I understand that you are the head professional of a well-known golf club in the Northeast.  Your several posts in this open Discussion Board castigating the USGA and presenting raters and the rating process in a very negative light are probably fine if you were a Joe Blow, but are they in your role as a club official?  Are such comments expressed in an open forum no matter how heartfelt they may be in the best interest of your club and your members?  Is there an objective in getting sideways with one of the two major ruling and organizing institutions in golf?  Judging by what you say about trying to accommodate raters, I must assume that your club wishes to be rated.  What purpose does relating your negative experiences with raters and rating panels on this open Discussion Group serve for your club.  I can see contacting the relevant folks at the USGA and the magazines with your informed insights, but pasting them here?


Having said all this, I am not offended by what you write- I do wonder about your judgement- or much care whether you accept my reason for asking Tom Doak if he got paid.  I just find it rather cheeky that you scold me for asking a short, simple question when you yourself delve in detail into subject matters which in your professional capacity are potentially offensive and damaging to your employers.


BTW, if your admonishment was not about Tom Doak, was it to protect the purity of this site?  Don't you think that that ship has sailed more than a decade ago?


We tolerate a lot here, and rightfully so.  I've been publicly savaged in this DG a couple of times to the extent of receiving several IMs, emails and calls asking me to take action.  But I am not one to censure or cancel.  Perhaps you missed those posts since I didn't see your comments to knock it off. 
         
 


As far as your original query about Tom being paid, I was "protecting" myself(and Zac), not Tom, as I'm pretty close to the project in question.
I once asked a poster to lay off Tom because I appreciate his participation here as an architectural expert, and would like him to continue to paricipate and engage with us amateurs.
You're correct that I have not defended others who have been unfairly maligned, perhaps because I value their input on this architectural forum less than I do a highly successful architect and willing participant.


To your comments on my judgement as it relates to my duty to my owner and club(which are fair)
I was first introduced to GCA by the owner of my club who suggested I read the famous thread of 2002 trashing my club.
I lurked for awhile then joined GCA in '04, where I met many of the Treehouse regulars at The Dixie Cup at Cuscowilla.
Upon reading the now deleted thread, I was amazed at the vitriol and emotion spewed, by people who simply were disapointed by a golf course. Many of the comments about the course were accurate, a few of the the other personal comments were not. Many of their course concerns were addressed and enhanced in our work on the course over the years.
Rather than wade into those threads, I mostly just read and observed, and actually contacted a few with negative opinions to get their thoughts.
In fact. several I contacted have since visited and loved the changes we made, many of which were inspired by their comments.
For the record, we still have many flaws, and make many mistakes, like any business, and despite our substantial cultural and financial success, we are constantly working to make the course and club better.


As far as the USGA and GD course raters, I have have contacted both organizations about my specific issues, citing many of the same issues I have posted here in print(Topsy Siderowf was particularly responsive and was thrilled to take action after my email, saying she had had multiple comments about one rater in question and that it was the straw that broke the camels' back for him)-and yes I do get frustrated by the many raters who live an hour away that can only rate the course on a weekend morning in early July). But a vast majoritty of raters are fantastic people and I thoroughly enjoy my conversations and email exchanges with them on the topic of architecture.


I am not comfortable at all with the direction the game has taken in recent years due to technology, with the scale of the game changing dramatically and the costs/difficulty of the game and the time it requires going up, not down- due to perceived "improvements".
The most surprising part of these polite exchanges via email/letter is that the recipients (USGA/local Golf associations) are often in agreement, perhaps not entirely, but certainly in principle.
I also learn a lot from their responses, as they are generally very accomodating, polite and informative. From the responses I get, they just aren't sure what to do(equipment), and I would think having more stakeholders in the industry such as myself weighing in honestly, rather than with their pocketbook, would be good, not bad.
I just don't believe "growing the game" should kill the game we all grew up loving, especially in an era where sustainability and scaling down are the way of the future.
But I also repect the opinion of those who grew up in, or appreciate a different game and want to have a friendly back and forth on the topic.

As far as expressing an opinion about the state of the game while being the HP at a "well known" NE course, if not us "well known"(moderately) in the industry then who?
I will never allow my position as a HP, Radio Show Host,or GOLF Magazine Top 100 Teacher(or the politics of) to keep me from speaking out about what I believe can be better about this game that has given me so much.There are things that disturb me about the direction of the game, and increasingly there are many, many more expressing similar opinions, and not just on this forum. It is particulalry gratifying to see similar positions from such respected experts as Mike Clayton, Brian Schneider,Jim McLean and yes, Tom Doak, as well as many other well know industry people.
That encourages me and yes it probably emboldens me.
I have never once heard negatively from my sponsors, or had my on air conversations(where I express similar opinions) censored.But if I did, I would not change my expression of opinion, even if it meant losing a future contract.


Perhaps I type here a bit more tongue in cheek, but my message rarely changes.
My owner is doing just fine BTW-you'd like him a lot.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2021, 10:12:21 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair/Buck Club Near Aiken, SC
« Reply #180 on: August 13, 2021, 08:57:07 PM »
Has Zac given up on playing the tour again?  I suspect he has some status after he went on the injury list.  With a child now, maybe he doesn't want to travel.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +0/-1
Re: Zac Blair/Buck Club Near Aiken, SC
« Reply #181 on: August 13, 2021, 09:59:13 PM »
Has Zac given up on playing the tour again?  I suspect he has some status after he went on the injury list.  With a child now, maybe he doesn't want to travel.


Perhaps better for Zac to answer, but as I understand it, the Tour's rules for medical exemptions encourage players to take as long as they need to get back to 100%, because once they start playing again, the clock starts ticking on how much they need to make to retain their exemption.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0

Michael Chadwick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair/Buck Club Near Aiken, SC
« Reply #183 on: November 18, 2021, 06:13:27 PM »
Per Instagram, flags were placed in the dirt this week, and the Tree Farm hosted its founding members to see firsthand the freshly bulldozed playing corridors. Already there's a clear sense of scale to the routing, and the redan certainly won't be mistaken for being a softened replica. I for one appreciate that social media, and Zac and members' prowess using it, provides an opportunity for non-members to track the progress of what should be a compelling new design, given all who are involved. It's simultaneously enticing content as well as native advertising for filling memberships. Though not without risks, what a unique opportunity it must be for those participating in the genesis of a new club. 
Instagram: mj_c_golf

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair/Buck Club Near Aiken, SC
« Reply #184 on: November 19, 2021, 12:12:16 PM »
Lou Duran,


I didnít read this thread until this week, but I had the pleasure of meeting and briefly talking with Zac at Tom Doakís annual Renaissance Cup, held at Memorial following the Houston Open.


FYI, I was impressed with how personable Zac is. He comes across as someone people would like, whether they are golfers or just neighbors. You canít help but wish him well.


Based on input from others people at the Renaissance Cup, I plan to go have a look at the Tree Farm sometime next year, maybe in the May - July timeframe. It sounds like it might be something special.

Tim Weiman

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair/Buck Club Near Aiken, SC
« Reply #185 on: November 19, 2021, 12:25:16 PM »

FYI, I was impressed with how personable Zac is. He comes across as someone people would like, whether they are golfers or just neighbors. You canít help but wish him well.


He couldn't be nicer.  Also, a VERY fast golfer.  Great combination. 


Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair/Buck Club Near Aiken, SC
« Reply #186 on: December 04, 2021, 10:01:06 PM »
When I am bored, I'll often just load up Google Maps, click somewhere I'm curious about and "drive" around the area on Streetview.


Ahead of a NC/SC/GA trip next April I am starting to look for non-golf diversions between my main bases of Pinehurst, Charleston, Aiken and Atlanta and clicking on the Streetview of small towns along the way to see if they seem charming or unsettling.


Somehow I ended up on a dirt road about 12 miles north-west of Orangeburg SC and the soil, terrain and vegetation looks terrific.


Take Plumtree Road from Bull Swamp Rd to Az Rd and see for yourself.


(I chose this thread to dump this brain fart in because it was about developing courses in SC and there was some question further upthread about the suitability of land arounbf Orangeburg)

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair/Buck Club Near Aiken, SC
« Reply #187 on: May 06, 2022, 08:10:29 PM »
Image
Taken from Zac Blair's Twitter page-Hole 15 sodded and awaiting sprigging
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair/Buck Club Near Aiken, SC
« Reply #188 on: May 06, 2022, 09:45:00 PM »
Love the terrain.
Tom Williamsen
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair/Buck Club Near Aiken, SC
« Reply #189 on: May 08, 2022, 12:59:11 PM »
Good looking hole.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair/Buck Club Near Aiken, SC
« Reply #190 on: May 09, 2022, 09:56:04 AM »
Is this the angle of play or just a pretty picture? I'm not seeing options for the infirmed.

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair/Buck Club Near Aiken, SC
« Reply #191 on: May 09, 2022, 12:13:33 PM »
Image
Taken from Zac Blair's Twitter page-Hole 15 sodded and awaiting sprigging


The image is not working for me  :(
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair/Buck Club Near Aiken, SC
« Reply #192 on: May 11, 2022, 09:41:15 AM »
Is this the angle of play or just a pretty picture? I'm not seeing options for the infirmed.


Taken from tee.
Redan.
Fairway and green not sprigged yet, that's just the sodded approach area surrounding the green
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair/Buck Club Near Aiken, SC
« Reply #193 on: May 11, 2022, 10:28:13 AM »
Thanks. Will Doak admit this is a Redan?

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair/Buck Club Near Aiken, SC
« Reply #194 on: May 11, 2022, 12:15:34 PM »
Thanks. Will Doak admit this is a Redan?


I'd say given that Doak pointed it out as a "Redan" in his initial email/routing plan to Zac, using the phrase
"If you're into that sort've thing"(a phrase Zac uses often when describing the hole-used in the Twitter post I lifted the picture from)
 that yes, Doak would admit it was a Redan....
Probably didn't hurt that the primary shaper on that hole was Ben Warren, who grew up in North Berwick...
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair/Buck Club Near Aiken, SC
« Reply #195 on: May 11, 2022, 04:11:05 PM »
Jeff,


Thanks for posting the photo. I like how it appears to play uphill. I'm obviously a homer, but I believe Redan holes play better level or slightly uphill like the original. That's why I'm not a big fan of the redan at Yale (maybe the only hole there I don't love!). I also really like the interpretation of the bunker before the green. You'll know this, but the Redan at one point played as a par-4. I know Zac likes variety and flexibility in courses, I wonder if he'd ever consider putting a teeing ground somewhere to play it as a drive and pitch par-4 where that bunker influences decisions off the tee :)

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair/Buck Club Near Aiken, SC
« Reply #196 on: May 11, 2022, 04:27:15 PM »
I like that Zac/TD took a concept of the Redan and made it his own, isn't that a more unique hole than simply checking boxes on copying the templates? For a new course I like the variety and freedom to try new things.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair/Buck Club Near Aiken, SC
« Reply #197 on: May 11, 2022, 04:35:49 PM »
Jeff,


Thanks for posting the photo. I like how it appears to play uphill. I'm obviously a homer, but I believe Redan holes play better level or slightly uphill like the original. That's why I'm not a big fan of the redan at Yale (maybe the only hole there I don't love!). I also really like the interpretation of the bunker before the green. You'll know this, but the Redan at one point played as a par-4. I know Zac likes variety and flexibility in courses, I wonder if he'd ever consider putting a teeing ground somewhere to play it as a drive and pitch par-4 where that bunker influences decisions off the tee :)


Net, the hole overall plays downhill.
Perhaps the image wasn't from back tee which is north of 200 yards(I didn't take it-lifted it from Zac's twitter)
Not really room for a drive and pitch par 4 as the hole could probably only go back another 30-40 yards before you'd be heading down towards the lower elevation of the 14th green and hence the tee shot would be blind/awkward-perhaps if moved left towards 14 fairway..
That said, it may well be a drive and pitch for me soon enough....
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair/Buck Club Near Aiken, SC
« Reply #198 on: May 11, 2022, 05:20:41 PM »
I like that Zac/TD took a concept of the Redan and made it his own, isn't that a more unique hole than simply checking boxes on copying the templates? For a new course I like the variety and freedom to try new things.
Totally agree. One doesnít want to travel the world of golf to see the exact thing repeated over and over again. Better to employ the concept, but with the hole having its own character.
Tim Weiman

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