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Ira Fishman

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C&C Routing
« on: May 07, 2022, 04:50:03 PM »
We have played four C&C original designs—Friar’s Head, Bandon Trails, SS Red, and Kapalua. The first three are among my favorites. In thinking about the routing, FH, BT, and Kapalua each have one long green to tee walk. I have no objections whatsoever and do not think that they detract from the course. However, I am interested if other C&C courses have such a walk? Is it a tactic that enables them to unlock the routing puzzle?


Thanks.

Mark_Fine

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Re: C&C Routing
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2022, 05:23:14 PM »
Sand Hills is most likely their greatest design and the only long walk is to get back and forth to the course from the clubhouse ;D which we all know was on purpose.  No architect purposely looks for a long transition between holes but sometimes it is necessary for a variety of reasons.  It can, as you say, be the key to unlocking the routing potential (my home course is a good example where the longest walk between holes is from #1 green to #2 tee) but that downhill 150 or so yard walk was shear genius by Flynn to make the most of a challenging site. 
« Last Edit: May 09, 2022, 05:01:28 PM by Mark_Fine »

PPallotta

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Re: C&C Routing
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2022, 05:25:40 PM »
I'd be as happy reading your answer, Ira, as anyone else's. You've quietly put together an excellent and varied courses-played list, and have developed a distinct voice/PoV.

Kalen Braley

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Re: C&C Routing
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2022, 05:52:49 PM »
We have played four C&C original designs—Friar’s Head, Bandon Trails, SS Red, and Kapalua. The first three are among my favorites. In thinking about the routing, FH, BT, and Kapalua each have one long green to tee walk. I have no objections whatsoever and do not think that they detract from the course. However, I am interested if other C&C courses have such a walk? Is it a tactic that enables them to unlock the routing puzzle?

Thanks.


Ian,

What do you consider a long walk?  Kapalua has several significant green to tee walks.  Using Google earth I found:

- 3 hole transitions that were over 150 yards from the edge of the green to the middle tee on the next hole
- 3 others that were over 200 yards for same.

And then the 2 very long ones from 5 to 6 and 9 to 10, both coming in at over 1/3 of a mile, (5 to 6 is just short of 1/2 mile)


Those 8 hole transitions alone add nearly an extra 1.5 miles to the total distance from 1 tee to 18 green

« Last Edit: May 07, 2022, 05:55:47 PM by Kalen Braley »

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: C&C Routing
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2022, 11:00:56 AM »
Off the top of my head I don’t remember any long walks at Dormie, Hidden Creek, or Chechessee. During the tournament they cart players between some holes at Kapalua.
Tom Williamsen
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

Carl Rogers

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Re: C&C Routing
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2022, 04:11:29 PM »
Bandon Trails 13 green to 14 tee even with the ride is a hike.
Dormie has a good walk between 6 green to 7 tee.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2022, 09:54:35 PM by Carl Rogers »
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Michael Moore

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Re: C&C Routing
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2022, 07:57:23 PM »
Kapalua has several significant green to tee walks.

How many people walk Kapalua?
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: C&C Routing
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2022, 08:00:51 PM »
Bandon Trails 13 green to 14 tee even with the ride is a hike.
Dormie has a good walal between 6 green to 7 tee.


Interesting. 6-7 seems long because you have to walk past 14 tee.
Tom Williamsen
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

Paul Jones

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Re: C&C Routing
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2022, 08:17:54 PM »
Kapalua has several significant green to tee walks.

How many people walk Kapalua?


I wonder if C&C did the routing with anticipation that very few would walk the course?  If they knew it would hold a tournament, then I would think not.
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

mike_beene

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Re: C&C Routing
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2022, 11:17:07 PM »
The Kapalua walk from 5 to 6 and from 8 tee to 8 green would be shorter with an obviously very expensive set of suspension bridges. Also there are houses on some of Kapalua. Maybe they didn’t have other real options to get to holes 6 through 8. It is still resort golf( more country club resort than golf club resort.) I remember when they softened the green at 15 before the T of C started there. I doubt this was ever thought to be a tour course. All that said, it is a wonderful place to play.

Tim Martin

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Re: C&C Routing
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2022, 09:01:05 AM »
Off the top of my head I don’t remember any long walks at Dormie, Hidden Creek, or Chechessee. During the tournament they cart players between some holes at Kapalua.


Tom-I really like the set of holes at Dormie and haven’t played since they installed the walking paths through some of the native areas. Is there anything left to be addressed at this point or is that project completed?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2022, 12:06:19 PM by Tim Martin »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: C&C Routing
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2022, 11:22:15 AM »
We have played four C&C original designs—Friar’s Head, Bandon Trails, SS Red, and Kapalua. The first three are among my favorites. In thinking about the routing, FH, BT, and Kapalua each have one long green to tee walk. I have no objections whatsoever and do not think that they detract from the course. However, I am interested if other C&C courses have such a walk? Is it a tactic that enables them to unlock the routing puzzle?


Thanks.


I don't know if I would call it a tactic, but I can recall dozens of examples in my work where there was a clear choice of a short walk between holes or two better natural golf holes if the green and next tee were separated a bit.  I tended to go with the better golf holes, as mentioned, knowing that most golfers would be using a cart. 


Some medium size walks might be a result of leaving land for future roads and housing.  Others might be legislated off limits areas of wetlands, habitat, or whatever.  But, some are undoubtedly cause (I think Bandon Trails is one of those) by a large topographical feature where the gca doesn't want to route on hole that much uphill, or connect with an up and over hole to get back to the next piece of property.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Paul Jones

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Re: C&C Routing
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2022, 12:12:52 PM »
Highland Links is one that comes to mind where I really enjoyed the long walk between holes. 
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Alex Miller

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Re: C&C Routing
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2022, 12:39:23 PM »
What's the long walk at FH? Can't seem to recall one although the cliff walk ends up being "long" because you'll want to stop and stare for a while!


Seems to me that Kapalua and Bandon Trails are both ambitious courses in the sense that a routing without a long walk would be very very difficult, if even possible at all. And even then perhaps would yield a course not close to what they've built at each.


The quality and frequency of a long walk in a routing probably have more of an impact than the binary question of whether there are any in a routing. To me at least.

Cal Carlisle

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Re: C&C Routing
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2022, 01:58:37 PM »




Quote
I don't know if I would call it a tactic...


jeff,


That's what I thought until I re-read the definition of the word.


Tactic - an action or strategy carefully planned to achieve a specific end.


Tactic seems to fit, although I don't think it's anything unique to Coore Crenshaw.


Ira Fishman

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Re: C&C Routing
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2022, 03:19:05 PM »




Quote
I don't know if I would call it a tactic...


jeff,


That's what I thought until I re-read the definition of the word.


Tactic - an action or strategy carefully planned to achieve a specific end.


Tactic seems to fit, although I don't think it's anything unique to Coore Crenshaw.


Cal,


Thank you on both the definition and highlighting the question I raised. As noted, I have simply have not played many C&C courses nor many modern architects’ courses at all. So I was/am curious if C&C used longer walks as a common tactic or not as well as if it is more common to them than others. Once again, I am not adverse to a longish walk if it makes sense for the course. And we took a cart at Kapalua for full disclosure.


Ira

Bill Crane

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Re: C&C Routing
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2022, 04:53:52 PM »
Off the top of my head I don’t remember any long walks at Dormie, Hidden Creek, or Chechessee. During the tournament they cart players between some holes at Kapalua.


Seems to me I have played about 3 dozen rounds at Chechessee and there are NO longs walks from greens to tees.  Longest may 80 yards from 9th green to the 10th tee.   Really fun routing that has four 4 or 5 hole loops that start and end near the clubhouse.
Super course to play on a regular basis - similar to my home course  -  Springdale GC in that regard.
_________________________________________________________________
( s k a Wm Flynnfan }

Mark_Fine

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Re: C&C Routing
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2022, 05:06:33 PM »
As I said, no architect that I can think of purposely uses or looks for a long walk between holes as a “tactic”.  However, it might end up happening or be needed to enhance the overall golf course.  That said, there are some long walks that most any golfer would kill to get to make like from 14 to 15 and from 15 to 16 at Cypress Point.  When I take friends to play there I tell them these are two of the greatest walks in all of golf - walk very slowly and take it all in  :)

Cal Carlisle

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Re: C&C Routing
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2022, 05:07:45 PM »
Ira,


I think it's a function of taking what the land gives them. I would say the main tactic would be to assemble the best golf holes they possibly can. From there I think they probably weigh what a reasonable commute between holes would be. That's not to say they don't factor an anticipatory "reveal" to a view here and there.

Kapalua is unique in the sense that there's some pretty severe terrain to be encountered. As someone mentioned earlier, save for some substantial suspension bridges (both in length and cost), some of the rides between holes are just going to have to be pretty long.

I worked for an irrigation consultant years ago, and one of the projects we worked on was Shanqin Bay Golf Club (which I never actually visited). As I recall it did not have the gorges on the property that the Plantation Course does, so the commute between holes was't too bad. I would have loved to see what Coore Crenshaw's finished product ended up looking like, but I think the chances of that happening are pretty remote.

-Cal
« Last Edit: May 09, 2022, 05:57:54 PM by Cal Carlisle »

Ira Fishman

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Re: C&C Routing
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2022, 05:43:24 PM »
Cal,


Until I spent time on this site, I did not appreciate the challenges that the Kapalua site presented. Having said that, it is not a course to which I am eager to return.


Mark,


I would play CPC every day every week of the year—only Lahinch rivals it in my book—so please let us know when all of us can join for the walks that you properly mention as worth the walk.


Ira

Kalen Braley

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Re: C&C Routing
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2022, 06:16:16 PM »
Off the top of my head I don’t remember any long walks at Dormie, Hidden Creek, or Chechessee. During the tournament they cart players between some holes at Kapalua.


Seems to me I have played about 3 dozen rounds at Chechessee and there are NO longs walks from greens to tees.  Longest may 80 yards from 9th green to the 10th tee.   Really fun routing that has four 4 or 5 hole loops that start and end near the clubhouse.
Super course to play on a regular basis - similar to my home course  -  Springdale GC in that regard.

Bill,

If I got the routing right on Google Earth, actually found 5 transitions at 100 yards or longer

1 to 2 - 100 yards
3 to 4 - 115 yards
6 to 7 - 125 yards
9 to 10 - 100 yards
12 to 13 - 120 yards

Several others were between 75 and 90...

P.s.

CPC 14 to 15 is 150 yards
15 to 16 about 170 yards
« Last Edit: May 09, 2022, 06:18:13 PM by Kalen Braley »

Jeff Evagues

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Re: C&C Routing
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2022, 06:39:16 PM »
The Kapalua walk from 5 to 6 and from 8 tee to 8 green would be shorter with an obviously very expensive set of suspension bridges. Also there are houses on some of Kapalua. Maybe they didn’t have other real options to get to holes 6 through 8. It is still resort golf( more country club resort than golf club resort.) I remember when they softened the green at 15 before the T of C started there. I doubt this was ever thought to be a tour course. All that said, it is a wonderful place to play.
During the tournament the put the players and caddies in suvs between 5 and 6, 8 tee to green and 9 to 10.
Be the ball

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: C&C Routing
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2022, 10:50:37 PM »
There aren't any long walks between holes at Cabot Cliffs.

John Foley

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Re: C&C Routing
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2022, 08:01:22 AM »


Seems to me I have played about 3 dozen rounds at Chechessee and there are NO longs walks from greens to tees.  Longest may 80 yards from 9th green to the 10th tee. 

Bill,

If I got the routing right on Google Earth, actually found 5 transitions at 100 yards or longer

1 to 2 - 100 yards
3 to 4 - 115 yards
6 to 7 - 125 yards
9 to 10 - 100 yards
12 to 13 - 120 yards

Several others were between 75 and 90...





I'm really surprised by this, not that I disagree, it's just that everyone of those walks is just very natural and does not distract from the experiance in the least.
Integrity in the moment of choice

Roman Schwarz

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Re: C&C Routing
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2022, 09:38:30 AM »
6 to 7 at Dormie isn't bad, especially since it's downhill.  People only notice it because of the existence of the 14 tee right in the way.  I'd vote 17 fairway to 17 green as the hardest walk on the course (especially coming at the end of the round), and 8 tee to 8 fairway replaces 15 tee to 15 fairway as the most "out of the way" with the walking bridges installed now.  All things considered, it's a really nice walk given the land it's on.  Arguably they could have taken 30 seconds off your round by roughly going 6-14-15-16-8-9-10-11-12-13-7-17-18 and reconfiguring 7 & 16 a little such that going around 16 to 17 wouldn't be bad, but I don't think the course experience would be better for it.  Just enjoy the sneak peek of 14 to your left and the view of the lake to your right.


Everyone points out the one at Bandon, and I would have, too, until going out there again last month.  After 152 holes for the week and 31 on the day, play was slow and I decided to forgo the shuttle.  It's really not that bad of a walk, and it's a really nice walk through the woods with a great view payoff at the end.  Maybe it's not Cypress Point, but I really enjoyed it and feel like it giveth rather than taketh from my experience.  It was certainly better than listening to the truck engine as it lugged us up the hill.  It is called Bandon "Trails" after all.


I'm not sure I'd call it a "tool", but I would imagine C&C clearly think about these longer walks as part of the experience of playing the round.  It sounds like they had the option of building a bridge and using some land east of the "volcano" hole at Sheep Ranch and elected not to.  Cramming all 18 west of there clearly had some trade-offs, particularly the congestion of tees and greens near the south end of the property.  Maybe it was simply that the holes over there wouldn't have been worth it, but the bridge walk was probably part of the calculus as well.

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