News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sand cap fairways
« on: May 02, 2022, 09:26:48 PM »
I know this is hard to answer, but just a ball park if possible...


How much does it cost to sand cap fairways?


I just played Federica and was impressed with how firm the bermuda fairways were, my friend told me that is because they were sand capped.


I am guessing that more courses in the south do not sand cap because of cost, but now I am curious on how much does it cost?
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand cap fairways
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2022, 10:34:47 PM »






When we renovated one of our courses in Phoenix a few years ago, the cost factor killed sand capping all fairways so we topped dressed sand on holes that needed help. Prices have escalated since then.



"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan ďThe most important shot in golf is the next oneĒ

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand cap fairways
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2022, 06:13:00 AM »
I know this is hard to answer, but just a ball park if possible...


How much does it cost to sand cap fairways?


I just played Federica and was impressed with how firm the bermuda fairways were, my friend told me that is because they were sand capped.


I am guessing that more courses in the south do not sand cap because of cost, but now I am curious on how much does it cost?


Your price for sand capping will greatly vary on where the sand mine is located & how available the sand is. (trucking)


Its early, so bear with me. A 6" sand capped fairway would require about 850cublic yards of sand, per acre. Average golf course has 30 acres of fairways=25,500yards of sand. Average dumb truck holds 18-20yds; 1275 trucks needed. Depending on the cost/ truck & what your sand specs are, you could have $600k-$900k in sand & delivery & delivery costs are probably more than I am assuming right now. The sand still needs to be spread.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Course & Grounds
Mountain Lake
Lake Wales, FL

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand cap fairways
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2022, 06:43:29 AM »
 ;D




The costs to truck it generally were about $1.65 a ton to truck it ten miles in 2000 with gas prices about $1.60 per gallon. So I'm guessing today it would be over $4.00 given the cost of diesel.


When we did it at Twisted Dune moved it on the site so it was a fraction of the cost. It would be interesting to see what Kohler paid to do it in Michigan at Whistling Straits.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand cap fairways
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2022, 08:13:12 AM »
The recent sand capping project at Loch Lomond in Scotland used just over 80,000 tons of USGA specification sand to cover 25 hectares (62 acres) to a depth of approximately 200mm (eight inches). There were major other elements to the project (the drains that went under the cap were laid in trenches lined with geotextile to prevent the ingress of fine particles, it was completely regressed and all the bunkers were rebuilt and lined), but the sand cap was the biggest element; the project came in at just over £6.5 million, by far the most expensive renovation project ever undertaken in British golf.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand cap fairways
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2022, 12:13:18 PM »
 8)


Looked it up, Dye brought in 13,000 truckloads or 286,000 tons of sand from neighboring farms.


Doesn't seem that daunting or enough given that we sold more than that to the Doak redo at Atlantic City CC. Maybe the source was bad?
« Last Edit: May 03, 2022, 12:15:12 PM by archie_struthers »

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand cap fairways
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2022, 02:38:55 PM »
8)


Looked it up, Dye brought in 13,000 truckloads or 286,000 tons of sand from neighboring farms.




Hmm. Lot of information out there stating they moved 3,000,000cubic yards & brought in 7,000 trucks for bunker sand. It was basically flat.


Whistling Straits (Straits), Top 100 Courses (golf.com)
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Course & Grounds
Mountain Lake
Lake Wales, FL

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand cap fairways
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2022, 03:36:49 PM »
Thoughts on drainage underneath and to the sides of sandcapped areas?
And on irrigation water usage on sandcapped areas vrs non-sandcapped?

Atb

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand cap fairways
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2022, 03:45:03 PM »
Lots of terrific information on this topic from a few months back..


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,70440.0.html

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand cap fairways
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2022, 04:11:36 PM »
 8) ???

Anthony , I'm just talking the sand capping on the Irish Course.  But your numbers seem more in keeping with the size and scope of the project.


Perhaps the 3,000,000 number reflects all the above plus what they moved around on site.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 06:53:49 AM by archie_struthers »

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand cap fairways
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2022, 07:12:55 PM »
I've priced two projects in the last two years that wanted to sand cap. By the time you find the right sand and plate it at the depth the lab recommends (I've never seen a lab recommend a cap less than 8") with all the underdrains needed and hauling, installing etc, its about $70,000 an acre in today dollars. Most places would be way better off spending about half that much per acre on installing awesome drainage and performing great shaping for surface drainage. But, if you are hosting a big tournament in a rainy area on heavy soils, sand capping definitely helps dry up the playable areas. We saw that last year at Memorial Park during the Hou Open when it rained 1" at 7am on thursday morning.  They got most of the 1st round in, and they played it down all weekend. In those soils that would not have happened if the fwys weren't sand capped.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand cap fairways
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2022, 09:26:52 AM »
When did the process of sand capping fairways originate?

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand cap fairways
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2022, 09:31:50 AM »
When did the process of sand capping fairways originate?


I can't say for certain, but when Hugh Alison built Burning Tree in 1924, the fairways were built 'according to the standard putting green formula', which is to say that 27 acres were built up using eight thousand tons of sand. That's the earliest I've heard of.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand cap fairways
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2022, 09:50:44 AM »
;D




The costs to truck it generally were about $1.65 a ton to truck it ten miles in 2000 with gas prices about $1.60 per gallon. So I'm guessing today it would be over $4.00 given the cost of diesel.


When we did it at Twisted Dune moved it on the site so it was a fraction of the cost. It would be interesting to see what Kohler paid to do it in Michigan at Whistling Straits.
When did they move Whistling Straits across the Lake? ;D

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand cap fairways
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2022, 11:59:31 AM »
When did the process of sand capping fairways originate?


I can't say for certain, but when Hugh Alison built Burning Tree in 1924, the fairways were built 'according to the standard putting green formula', which is to say that 27 acres were built up using eight thousand tons of sand. That's the earliest I've heard of.


Adam-Thanks for the reply. I didnít even consider that the practice was in use going that far back.


Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand cap fairways
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2022, 08:09:52 PM »
 8)  Couldn't resist to check depth of that sand at Burning Tree... I have to wonder how uniformly it was spread or was used perhaps to fill in dips or trenches to make "drainage paths"


27ACRES
1176120FT2
8000ton sand
16000000lb sand
90lb/ft3
177778ft3
0.15ft sand
1.81in
46.07mm
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

John Emerson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand cap fairways
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2022, 10:17:04 PM »
When did the process of sand capping fairways originate?


I can't say for certain, but when Hugh Alison built Burning Tree in 1924, the fairways were built 'according to the standard putting green formula', which is to say that 27 acres were built up using eight thousand tons of sand. That's the earliest I've heard of.


Adam-Thanks for the reply. I didnít even consider that the practice was in use going that far back.


I visited BT twice during the renovation and I never saw any sand in the fairways and they were laying sod on 2 separate holes in the fwy both times I was there.
ďThereís links golf, then everything else.Ē

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand cap fairways
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2022, 07:05:07 AM »
When did the process of sand capping fairways originate?


I can't say for certain, but when Hugh Alison built Burning Tree in 1924, the fairways were built 'according to the standard putting green formula', which is to say that 27 acres were built up using eight thousand tons of sand. That's the earliest I've heard of.


Iíve dug that place up and spent enough time w Dave Kardos their outstanding super to know there are zero sandcapped fws. Itís clay.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand cap fairways
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2022, 07:14:26 AM »
 :-X ::) :-X




LOL....I did just qualify for Social Security Benefits Mark.


Now that would have been easier ....just barge the sand across the lake

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand cap fairways
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2022, 09:18:59 AM »

Unless you're intent on ripping up your fairways, this may be a cheaper option, can be spread out over time, and allows the course to remain open.

I recall an interview with Matt Shaffer (it's on youtube) where he spoke about what they did at Merion in the years before the US Open.


They topdressed the hell out of the fairways.


If I recall correctly:


...it was regular light topdressings.
He did not core fairways as he did not want to bring up the weed seed or poa. The line that sticks out from the interview is "we basically buried the stuff" (weed and poa).
In the interview he reveals how many tons of sand they were applying per year. I can't recall the number. 


Friends who are supers tell me, once you start down the road of topdressing fairways, you have to continue. It makes no sense to make a couple applications, and then stop. And, a huge application of sand to your fairways wasn't recommended either. Light and constant was the way to go.


Would like to hear from others on this.


One other funny bit (likely from another interview) with Matt Shaffer is what he did to the greens to get them rock hard. A consultant (USGA?) swung by and asked him what he was applying to the greens. He replied, "oh minerals". One of his staff working in the vicinity started chuckling. He was basically dusting the greens with concrete dust. The consultant said... OK... but once the event is over, you have to break this stuff up immediately. I suggest you find and watch the video to ensure my recollection is accurate.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2022, 09:24:32 AM by Tony Ristola »

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand cap fairways
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2022, 10:48:37 AM »
Can sand capping be limited to poor, low drainage sections of a course? 


My regular haunt has four or five "spots," (encompassing maybe 3-4 total acres) but otherwise drains and plays well...can such areas be addressed in this way?


Does it have to be an all or nothing proposition?
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand cap fairways
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2022, 11:22:20 AM »
Can sand capping be limited to poor, low drainage sections of a course? 


My regular haunt has four or five "spots," (encompassing maybe 3-4 total acres) but otherwise drains and plays well...can such areas be addressed in this way?


Does it have to be an all or nothing proposition?


Can be localized.


I have a buddy that has transformed the entrances to his greens this way (30-yards out). His approaches are green quality, and so firm and fast they're as good as the greens at many clubs in the region, and serve as great winter greens. In fact, they're more interesting as they have more slope! This transformation is great for the golfers who bounce and roll their approaches into the green. He accomplished this in a couple seasons.


This on a silty/clay soil.


It was more than merely topdressing, but topdressing was certainly frequent and light.


I would suggest putting in drainage before embarking on such a program, if these sections hold water. As my buddy illustrated, it can be localized.

« Last Edit: May 15, 2022, 01:12:16 PM by Tony Ristola »

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand cap fairways
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2022, 02:32:33 PM »

Unless you're intent on ripping up your fairways, this may be a cheaper option, can be spread out over time, and allows the course to remain open.

I recall an interview with Matt Shaffer (it's on youtube) where he spoke about what they did at Merion in the years before the US Open.


They topdressed the hell out of the fairways.


If I recall correctly:


...it was regular light topdressings.
He did not core fairways as he did not want to bring up the weed seed or poa. The line that sticks out from the interview is "we basically buried the stuff" (weed and poa).
In the interview he reveals how many tons of sand they were applying per year. I can't recall the number. 


Friends who are supers tell me, once you start down the road of topdressing fairways, you have to continue. It makes no sense to make a couple applications, and then stop. And, a huge application of sand to your fairways wasn't recommended either. Light and constant was the way to go.


Would like to hear from others on this.


One other funny bit (likely from another interview) with Matt Shaffer is what he did to the greens to get them rock hard. A consultant (USGA?) swung by and asked him what he was applying to the greens. He replied, "oh minerals". One of his staff working in the vicinity started chuckling. He was basically dusting the greens with concrete dust. The consultant said... OK... but once the event is over, you have to break this stuff up immediately. I suggest you find and watch the video to ensure my recollection is accurate.


Its VERY important to note that sand capping & sand topdressing are on the opposite ends of the spectrum. On cool season turf, getting 1" of topdressing sand onto growing fairways ina season would be something to be proud of. We have the ability to be more aggressive with sand topdressing on bermudagrass. Regardless, fairway topdressing can take YEARS to establish 4-6" of sand topdressing in the upper profile. And by years, I mean 8-10 years.


Sand capping is done before any grassing is done & usually consists of 6-12" of sand, grassing with continually sand topdressing as the plant continues to mature.


We use what we call sugar sand or flour sand in the winter months to topdress greens. Its all the fines that the sand companies dont want, but works into tight turf canopies well. Problem is, using it too long & too much without going back in & "getting it out" will create percolation problems & your soils will get locked up.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Course & Grounds
Mountain Lake
Lake Wales, FL

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back