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mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
THAT IS HOW THE COURSE WAS DESIGNED.


   While I’m not sure it would be my style it has its own personality and it is preserved and stands the test of time.


That’s architectural integrity and even innovation which should be admired.
AKA Mayday

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ok so how come I’m not upset at all of the trees at Harbour Town?
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2022, 05:46:06 PM »
You wouldn’t chop ‘em down because they tend to mask a lot of cheesy looking condos/villas and most of the cart paths.


I’ve always been a big fan of Harbour Town, because I went in a number of buddy trips, starting in the mid 80’s, before I developed an aversion to trees on golf courses.


Nowadays, I love the smell of sawdust in the morning. It smells like victory, don’t you know?  But a chainsaw massacre would be downright unsightly on this golf course.


There’s an exception to every so-called rule.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2022, 05:48:06 PM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ok so how come I’m not upset at all of the trees at Harbour Town?
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2022, 06:10:03 PM »
Mayday,


I thought you were going to say because the land is flat and featureless as opposed to ANGC which is on superb and rolling terrain.


Sure you don't want a mulligan?  ;)


Terry Lavin,


You need to come out to Cobb's Creek for a sawdust fix.   ;D
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ok so how come I’m not upset at all of the trees at Harbour Town?
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2022, 06:55:40 PM »
Mayday,


I thought you were going to say because the land is flat and featureless as opposed to ANGC which is on superb and rolling terrain.





Sure you don't want a mulligan?  ;)

Mike,


That was last week’s Mayday.

Terry Lavin,


You need to come out to Cobb's Creek for a sawdust fix.   ;D
AKA Mayday

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ok so how come I’m not upset at all of the trees at Harbour Town?
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2022, 07:39:33 PM »
Harbour Town is a fantastic test of golf and the better and more creative the shot maker, the more one will enjoy and appreciate the golf course and the role of the trees. 

Terry’s comments are out of line.  I have a number of good friends who own some of the homes that he obviously doesn’t care for. 

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ok so how come I’m not upset at all of the trees at Harbour Town?
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2022, 07:43:41 AM »
Harbour Town is a fantastic test of golf and the better and more creative the shot maker, the more one will enjoy and appreciate the golf course and the role of the trees. 

Terry’s comments are out of line.  I have a number of good friends who own some of the homes that he obviously doesn’t care for. 


You’re right about the last comment. I was looking for a little hyperbole and it came out caustic. My bad.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ok so how come I’m not upset at all of the trees at Harbour Town?
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2022, 11:22:18 AM »
The trees at Harbor Town yield many interesting shots and dilemmas. Isn't that the definition of a good golf course?   

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ok so how come I’m not upset at all of the trees at Harbour Town?
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2022, 11:41:00 AM »
Trees on golf courses are a lot more tolerable when they're of the variety(ies) where you can play shots under, over and around them. Part of Harbour Town's genius seems to be not just that it has trees, but it does not have the wrong trees (looking at you, spruces).
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ok so how come I’m not upset at all of the trees at Harbour Town?
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2022, 01:13:32 PM »
I was told, while playing it by a greens staff person, that the trees help hold the land forms. That they keep the sand based soil from washing away in a major flooding event.


Does that make any sense?


ed
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ok so how come I’m not upset at all of the trees at Harbour Town?
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2022, 02:17:53 PM »
THAT IS HOW THE COURSE WAS DESIGNED.


   While I’m not sure it would be my style it has its own personality and it is preserved and stands the test of time.


That’s architectural integrity and even innovation which should be admired.


Maybe you are also expanding your perspectives.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ok so how come I’m not upset at all of the trees at Harbour Town?
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2022, 03:51:00 PM »
Harbor Town is Myrtle Beach without the buffet lines. The housing is affordable yet dated. It’s a transitional mistress for many a golfer like me.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ok so how come I’m not upset at all of the trees at Harbour Town?
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2022, 04:49:26 PM »
Every year we discuss the trees at Harbour Town.  I recognize that most or at least many on this site don’t care for trees on golf courses because the original links courses had few if any.   But golf has evolved dramatically over the years to be played in all different kinds of environments and topographies.  It is what makes the game so special.  As I stated in a different thread on trees, we all agree not every course should have trees and sometimes the wrong types are planted and/or placed in the wrong locations.  But I have also found courses that resort to all but clear cutting the place and that makes little sense either.  Not every course is like Oakmont where very few trees were part of the original design.  And even there, the one mistake they made at Oakmont was there were shade trees near some of the tees planted very early on and those were taken down as well :(.  But I have seen some parkland courses get chain saw happy and take down most everything in sight and now the bombers can hit it anywhere and recover.  I am reminded about Flynn’s famous quote, “Accuracy, Carry, Length” in order of importance.  Well placed trees especially on parkland type designs can make for much more interesting and thoughtful and accurate play.  Last quick comment, I recently interviewed for a project and the committee said they wanted to take down hundreds of trees.  My advice to them was think very carefully about that because if you are not careful you will be stuck with instituting internal OB (which no one likes) for safety purposes because big hitters will be taking lines of play not possible because of the trees. 
[/size]
[/size]Harbour Town has done a great job managing their trees.  The course is special in part because of them  (and Pete Dye knew that it would be). 

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ok so how come I’m not upset at all of the trees at Harbour Town?
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2022, 05:27:47 PM »
Mark,


  Are you familiar with courses that do a total inventory of their trees?  It becomes a dilemma when you list a tree as dead or very sick and it has a safety purpose. Remove it or not?
AKA Mayday

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ok so how come I’m not upset at all of the trees at Harbour Town?
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2022, 06:27:01 PM »
Mike,
We have done that (take an inventory of trees) on several of my projects.  As far as dead or diseased trees; I remember sitting in a grounds meeting at a very high profile project in the mid west spending literally 20-30 minutes listening to the committee argue about what to do with a dead tree.  I finally had enough and said, for goddess sake, the tree is dead and is ready to fall over.  It has to be taken down or someone could get hurt.  They took it down the next day.  There are certain trees (just saw some two weeks ago) that can stand safely for a long time and even look great when dead like Cypress trees.  But they still have to be managed.  I am not a big fan of what I call “back up” trees, trees planted next to “important” trees so when the one dies the other is there to replace it.  Sometimes the idea can work but again it has to be thought through carefully.  Planting the right types and varying the species can be effective as well in this process. 


We had to remove two half dead old oak trees on our 9th hole at Lehigh.  Those trees did a great job knocking down stray tee shots from landing on the tennis courts that were of course added long after the course was built.  It is a real safety concern but the club had no choice as big limbs were coming down in heavy wind.  Someone was going to get hurt if they left them standing.  There was talk about putting up nets but it is not a simple solution.  Not sure who will make the final call. 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ok so how come I’m not upset at all of the trees at Harbour Town?
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2022, 04:50:55 AM »
THAT IS HOW THE COURSE WAS DESIGNED.


   While I’m not sure it would be my style it has its own personality and it is preserved and stands the test of time.


That’s architectural integrity and even innovation which should be admired.

You likely have much less emotional investment in Harbour Town compared to ANGC.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Dunfanaghy, Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ok so how come I’m not upset at all of the trees at Harbour Town?
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2022, 07:45:34 AM »
Is/isn’t there a distinction between trees that are indigenous to the area and species ‘imported’ from other regions?
Atb

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ok so how come I’m not upset at all of the trees at Harbour Town?
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2022, 07:54:35 AM »
Thomas,
Of course there is, but many times it is what you leave vs what you cut down as many courses with trees were routed through forests of trees to begin with.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ok so how come I’m not upset at all of the trees at Harbour Town?
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2022, 08:02:21 AM »
Terry makes a fair point ;)


I always enjoyed many of the specific holes at HT, but felt too many of the holes had the same look and the overall feeling was a bit claustrophobic and a difficult environment to maintain bermuda grass outside the winter/spring rye grass overseed season leading up to the event, leading to poor summer turf conditions-still a prime tourist season for HHI.
This analysis is dated however I have not been to HT since the early 90's and I'd like to believe they've done a lot of tree work since then, when it was sorely needed.
That said, I always preferred the variety Long Cove presented vs. the nearly one dimemsional HT.
(LC certainly has better and further away houses ;) .)


I like trees on a golf course in the appropriate setting and I enjoy treeless courses.
I don't like applying the "the original course didn't have trees" philosophy as a benchmark.
Many of our inland golf courses were built on farmland, stripped of their trees hundreds of years ago.
That doesn't mean a few specimen and strategic trees can't be replanted to their former environment.
The game has evolved massively in 100 plus years-not sure why courses themselves can't evolve as well.
ANGC had far less trees in 1930 when they were building it, but there were hundreds of saplings around in the earliest photos of the course. Somebody assumed those would grow into mature trees, and no doubt that somebody had a purpose.
Some of the most iconic areas of the course are defined by those very trees.
And yes they have gone overboard in recent years, filling the "second cut" with smaller trees with many encroaching limbs that inhibit bold and creative play, as well as making spectating far less appealing than it once was from many areas.
The good news is a few areas have had trees removed(11, right of 9) so perhaps there is hope.


No doubt trees always need management, with pruning, removal of  diseased ones, removal/pruning of trees encroaching on play or those causing shade/turf problems.


Blanket statements("cut 'em all") bother me though and fads tend to go too far.
Then the inevitable question of what to put in their place("native" gunch etc.)
It takes a long time to grow a great tree, and we are in a supposed era worldwide of increased sustainability.
Trees and vegetation also curb runoff and erosion.
They also can make interesting and satisfying vertical hazards.


Sean is right-most courses don't have the resources to manage their trees and clear cutting tends to be a rich man's issue.


Moderation seems to be key.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2022, 10:25:56 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ok so how come I’m not upset at all of the trees at Harbour Town?
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2022, 10:22:02 AM »
Jeff,
Harbour Town is in pristine conditions year round these days.  And they have done a good job managing their trees.  I also love Long Cove and play both courses routinely.  Trees play a roll in both courses but more so at Harbour Town.  Long Cove has a bit more width.  I enjoy watching the pros having to shape golf shots and play creative recovery shots under and around or over the trees.  Harbour Town makes a golfer think.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ok so how come I’m not upset at all of the trees at Harbour Town?
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2022, 11:38:06 AM »
Mark,


Have you been over to Haig Point and seen the renovation proposal?  In the last few years nature has removed just enough trees to make me happy.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ok so how come I’m not upset at all of the trees at Harbour Town?
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2022, 08:16:43 PM »
John,
I have played Haig Point numerous times the last being about two years ago.  There are still a lot of trees.  I am not aware of renovation plans.  Who is doing the work and what do they have in mind? 

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ok so how come I’m not upset at all of the trees at Harbour Town?
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2022, 08:27:03 AM »
There are few things in all of nature more beautiful than old, full-grown live oaks. I love trees in general, but coastal live oaks that have seen centuries and storms and people come and go are just special.  If I hit a golf ball that hits a live oak, I probably owe that tree an apology.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ok so how come I’m not upset at all of the trees at Harbour Town?
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2022, 09:40:35 AM »
John,
I have played Haig Point numerous times the last being about two years ago.  There are still a lot of trees.  I am not aware of renovation plans.  Who is doing the work and what do they have in mind?


As a non voting member I stay out of the politics of who, where, what and how much. There is a large poster board detailing possible work on public display in the clubhouse.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ok so how come I’m not upset at all of the trees at Harbour Town?
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2022, 04:20:42 PM »
never was a fan of Harbor Town, too tight for my game, too frustrating, too  hard to score, too repetitive
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

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