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Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #175 on: March 07, 2022, 03:23:06 PM »
Hereís the context in terms of Mickelson using the proposed Saudi tour as leverage against the PGA Tour;
I'm well aware of the context, as I'm fully aware of the fact that you're taking a guy who is full of shit at his word, when the same guy has gotten numerous basic facts dead wrong.

Listen to this podcast with Harry Higgs, and even he will jump on with several less-than-positive facts about Phil: about how he's not normal at all, about how he's looking out for Phil and Phil alone, about how he's never actually talked with other players about thisÖ etc.

Here you go: https://overcast.fm/+Bt211AE90

Now you may argue he still might have joined the Saudi tour, and I wouldnít dispute that, but I think even a febrile Mickelson hater like yourself would acknowledge that isnít his preferred outcome.
I don't hate the guy. Not even a little. I just think he's a phony, and that you're buying whatever he's selling. I think he's got a reputation that's nothing like the one he deserves. I think he'd have played on the Saudi Tour and taken their money, absolutely.

And re: that $1B or whatever the Tour is "sitting on," have you looked at their pension liability? It's high, too. Over $1B itself. So as someone else said, "Said another way, they have the cash that will pay out the players pensions in the future, currently invested in marketable securities."

« Last Edit: March 07, 2022, 03:26:09 PM by Erik J. Barzeski »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, and Lifetime Student of the Game

JohnVDB

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #176 on: March 07, 2022, 07:53:58 PM »
Peter/Kalen/John
 
And correct me if I'm wrong, but the football and basketball contracts are for a number of years and they still pay out even if the player gets injured and can't play during the period of the contract
Niall


Niall, Football contracts are not guaranteed.  So, if you get hurt, the rest of your contract can be voided.  Even if you donít get hurt, the team can cut you and your contract is done,  a lot of that is going on right now because teams have to fit under the leagueís salary cap.  They sign players to huge contracts that are back-end loaded and then cut them or restructure their contracts to get under the next years cap.


EDIT:
In looking there are some guarantees, itís complicated, more can be read here [size=78%]https://www.profootballrumors.com/2020/09/nfl-contract-guarantees-explained[/size]



« Last Edit: March 07, 2022, 08:04:54 PM by JohnVDB »

Rob Marshall

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #177 on: March 07, 2022, 08:26:32 PM »
Old article but interesting and lays out the pension plan and the potential liability.


PONTE VEDRA BEACH, Fla. ó Thanks to the largesse of the FedEx Cup, the best retirement plan in sports just got better.[/size]This year, the PGA Tourís contribution to the playersí retirement fund is expected to reach $47 million, up from $28.5 million last year and nearly nine times the amount when Tiger Woods joined the tour in 1996.ďI donít think the players appreciate it as much as they should. Itís exponentially better than any plan in sports,Ē says Dave Lightner, a partner in FSM Capital Management LLC, a Cleveland-based financial planning firm with 60 professional golfers as clients.ďIt was already a big pool, and now itís even bigger,Ē he said.Former PGA Tour commissioner Deane Beman conceived its retirement plan, which the Internal Revenue Service approved in 1983.Revenue-generating business ventures such as the tourís TPC Network of golf courses and other marketing and licensing agreements allowed the tour to defer some compensation without compromising purses.Getting a plan approved that wouldnít jeopardize the tourís 501c6 tax-exempt status was no small accomplishment.It took several attempts.Experience countsMr. Beman credits Victor Ganzi, then a managing partner at New York law firm Rogers & Wells, for masterminding a plan that would pass muster.It helped that Mr. Ganzi had experience. In 1982, he designed a deferred-compensation plan for the LPGA.As one former tour employee said of Mr. Ganziís intellect: ďYou want him for a Trivial Pursuit partner.Ē Mr. Ganzi now is president and chief executive of New York-based Hearst Corp. and has served on the tourís board since 1994.He devised a performance-based plan that rewarded players with one deferred-compensation credit for making a 36-hole cut. After the 15th cut made, the value of the credit doubles.ďThe double-cut provision at a certain level was a linchpin that helped get us approved [by the IRS], because you had to play more to get more,Ē Mr. Beman said.Any type of retirement plan must have some level of vesting and risk of forfeiture. Under current rules of the tourís plan, players are vested in the so-called cuts plan after they have played a minimum of 15 official events annually for five seasons. (Seasons need not be consecutive, but the gap between two qualifying seasons can be no longer than five years.)Incentive-based programs have been added to the cuts plan (and since eliminated) to reward players who compete more frequently.ďWe have the most unpredictable jobs in sports from a tax standpoint,Ē said Joe Ogilvie, a player director on the tourís policy board, noting that there are no guaranteed contracts in golf. ďThe tourís retirement plan gives you a sense of financial security.ĒBaseball players, by comparison, receive a pension tied to days of service. It doesnít matter whether a player has won four World Series rings as did New York Yankees shortstop Derek Jeter or is a left-handed reliever who makes a living facing one batter every couple of games. So how can Tiger Woods sock away close to $700,000 ó earned last year through three programs that comprised the tourís retirement plan ó while most professional athletes participating in ďqualifiedĒ plans canít contribute more than $44,000 (the maximum allowed by the IRS in 2006)?[/color]Independent contractorsThat is because qualified plans have funding limits and are available only to organizations, including sports teams, that have true employees. The tour isnít eligible to offer such a plan, because its members are independent contractors.But there is a drawback to the tourís non-qualified plan. Although there is no funding limit, playersí money canít be set aside in separate accounts and is held as general assets, making their retirement funds ó at least in theory ó vulnerable to tour creditors.Retirement assets, valued at $433,425,501, according to the tourís 2005 Form 990 filed with the IRS, could be at risk if the tour loses a major lawsuit or files for bankruptcy protection.Suffice to say, the tour has taken virtually every precaution to safeguard the retirement funds. It has insurance coverage and has pledged every other asset it owns (worth a combined $600 million to $700 million, according to Mr. Ogilvie) before it will sacrifice the retirement plan.He said: ďI think the only chance that money is not there is if we are hit by a meteor, and everybody dies.ĒAdam Schupak is a Golfweek senior writer. This article was reprinted with the permission of that publication.
"I used to get pissed at blowing leads until I quit having them" John Kavanaugh

Peter Flory

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #178 on: March 08, 2022, 06:56:19 PM »
The retirement plan liability is on the balance sheet.  It's part of other liabilities and is broken out on one of the schedules within. 

If you exclude that liability and the securities that the tour (through Schwab) has invested on behalf of the players that matches it, there is a remaining excess of about $1.3B. 

I'm not saying that they shouldn't have reserves, just pointing out that there is an excess from prior years of not distributing all of the net income out to the players and some of the players think the reserves are too high  Clearly they had more than they needed when you see how much more they are doling out after all of the complaining and emerging threats from competitors. 

But I think that the crux of the problem is that the board is set up in a way that takes control away from the players by design- to meet the standards for the tax-exempt status.  The players are 4 out of the 10 board seats.  They can't enact change through that channel, they can just have a minority voice and are privy to what is happening.  Phil concluded after years of dealing with them that the only way to get change was by being an activist.  He overplayed his hand with that strategy, but that was what had been working for him up until that point. 

The NFL gave up its tax-exempt status due to the annoyance of it, the mandatory disclosures, and the bad PR.  Supposedly, the taxes that they are paying is only a bit over $10MM per year.  I wonder if certain players were hoping that the Senate bill in 2017 was going to strip the tour of its tax-exempt status and force a conversion.  Presumably, they could have then made it a true collective and taken full control over it.  They would have still hired professional management, but they'd have a majority on the board and could force through changes if they ever wanted. 

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #179 on: March 08, 2022, 08:32:26 PM »
The players are 4 out of the 10 board seats.  They can't enact change through that channel
They can and have "enacted change through that channel." It's not like the other six members are against the players by rule or role - they're there to provide a business perspective to a bunch of athletes, not to oppose them in all they want to do.

Phil concluded after years of dealing with them that the only way to get change was by being an activist.
Where's your proof that Phil ever "dealt with them" let alone "after years"?
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, and Lifetime Student of the Game

cary lichtenstein

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #180 on: March 22, 2022, 07:15:21 PM »
Mickelson out of the Masters!!!! Has he been suspended? and if so, for how long?
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

A.G._Crockett

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #181 on: March 23, 2022, 08:27:34 AM »
Mickelson out of the Masters!!!! Has he been suspended? and if so, for how long?


If he has been suspended by the Tour, ANGC could do anything they wished regardless.  And vice versa; they could request that he stay away even if there was no suspension.


Unless Phil tells us, weíll probably never know; the PGA Tour and ANGC are both about as secretive as any NGO I can think of.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Jeff Schley

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #182 on: March 23, 2022, 01:09:31 PM »
Mickelson out of the Masters!!!! Has he been suspended? and if so, for how long?
For as much heat as he has taken, don't forget he won a major last year!  He isn't washed up by any means, despite all the shade he gets and yes much deservered. However, he is the defending PGA Champion.
If he missed the PGA then I'll be shocked and would be curious to know why.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Kalen Braley

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #183 on: March 23, 2022, 05:47:38 PM »
Given the Saudi tour is apparently still a go with recent announcements including dates and such, perhaps Phil just biding his time to cash in on some massive paydays. It does seem like he'd have far better opportunities to make big dollars out there playing against a few older pros, and some young no names, and whoever else they can to sign up...

At this point in his career, I've always felt this new tour makes perfect sense...for him.

Peter Pallotta

Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #184 on: March 23, 2022, 07:39:06 PM »
This whole thread reminds me of that great exchange from "Citizen Kane", which went something like:

Jedediah: You don't care about anything except you...You want to be loved, but only on your own terms.
Charles:  A toast then, Jedediah, to love: on the only terms anybody ever knows - his own.

Tim Martin

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #185 on: March 23, 2022, 08:32:13 PM »
Mickelson out of the Masters!!!! Has he been suspended? and if so, for how long?


If he has been suspended by the Tour, ANGC could do anything they wished regardless.  And vice versa; they could request that he stay away even if there was no suspension.


Unless Phil tells us, weíll probably never know; the PGA Tour and ANGC are both about as secretive as any NGO I can think of.


Itís being reported that ANGC asked him to sit it out this year.

A.G._Crockett

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #186 on: March 24, 2022, 08:37:52 AM »
Mickelson out of the Masters!!!! Has he been suspended? and if so, for how long?


If he has been suspended by the Tour, ANGC could do anything they wished regardless.  And vice versa; they could request that he stay away even if there was no suspension.


Unless Phil tells us, weíll probably never know; the PGA Tour and ANGC are both about as secretive as any NGO I can think of.


Itís being reported that ANGC asked him to sit it out this year.


After I wrote the above post, I read that same thing, reported I believe by Golfweek.  The article said that he had either been asked or told by ANGC not to come, and also reported that he is, in fact, currently suspended by the Tour.


If all of that is true, and itís certainly believable, then combined with loss of sponsors this would appear to be arguably the biggest blunder in golf history.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Kalen Braley

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #187 on: March 24, 2022, 11:01:29 AM »
Mickelson out of the Masters!!!! Has he been suspended? and if so, for how long?


If he has been suspended by the Tour, ANGC could do anything they wished regardless.  And vice versa; they could request that he stay away even if there was no suspension.


Unless Phil tells us, weíll probably never know; the PGA Tour and ANGC are both about as secretive as any NGO I can think of.


Itís being reported that ANGC asked him to sit it out this year.


After I wrote the above post, I read that same thing, reported I believe by Golfweek.  The article said that he had either been asked or told by ANGC not to come, and also reported that he is, in fact, currently suspended by the Tour.


If all of that is true, and itís certainly believable, then combined with loss of sponsors this would appear to be arguably the biggest blunder in golf history.


Or lead to a massive payday if he plays for The Shark  ;D

Pat Burke

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #188 on: March 24, 2022, 11:49:13 AM »
Re: the retirement plan
My own experience Only
I was a pga tour member with mediocre levels of success imo For 1990/92-97.  MADE 76 cuts played 150+ events.
I have exactly ZERO Retirement.
The ďpensionĒ plan is great for successful players.  If I was in any of the other major sports, Iíd have some kind of decent pension. IMO our pension is a rich get richer, but Iím certainly biased




Re Phil:
He IS different than his public persona in my experience. But NOT bad(not talking about Saudi stuff).  He is a smart ass, and certainly looks at things from his own viewpoint.  But he was also a guy that while I didnít know him that well, offered to help me out a lot when I was returning from a serious injury.  I was practicing at a course he was playing, and struggling with equipment issues.  He set up a round with me and one of the manufacturers design team, getting him to work with me on some unique issues I had after wrist surgery.


Just my experiences.




JMEvensky

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #189 on: March 24, 2022, 12:01:31 PM »
Pat Burke--thanks for taking the time to type that. Regarding PGAT issues, your opinion is more equal than others'.  ;)

David Federman

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #190 on: March 24, 2022, 01:58:59 PM »
Given Phil's stature as an all-time great, with a huge fan base, have to believe that we are privy to only the tip of the iceberg as to everything that went down. If not, the punishment seems grossly excessive to the transgression. Other than Cabrera being in jail, has there even been a revocation of a Masters invite for anyone, let alone a player of Phil's stature?

Mike_Trenham

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #191 on: March 24, 2022, 08:07:13 PM »
Given Phil's stature as an all-time great, with a huge fan base, have to believe that we are privy to only the tip of the iceberg as to everything that went down. If not, the punishment seems grossly excessive to the transgression. Other than Cabrera being in jail, has there even been a revocation of a Masters invite for anyone, let alone a player of Phil's stature?


In 1948 Frank Stranahanís invitation was revoked for allegedly hitting extra practice shots into the greens and ungentlemanly response when questioned about it. He was escorted off the 8th green never to return.
Proud member of a Doak 3.

Pat Burke

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #192 on: March 24, 2022, 11:50:56 PM »
Pat Burke--thanks for taking the time to type that. Regarding PGAT issues, your opinion is more equal than others'.  ;)


Honestly, just have fun sharing my experience in certain areas.  There are plenty of times I got in trouble when I played because Iím not disciplined enough to NOT answer questions. 


But I can say, dealing with the Commissioner and the tour with my own selfish case was the worst professional experience of my life, and Iíve worked at a ClubCorp facility in my past! :D .


The opportunities To play were amazing.  The staff I dealt with were top shelf.   Everything as a competitor was amazing.
Everything as a journeyman dealing with the business was less so. The bureaucracy at the top was just terrible for me.     

Jeff Schley

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #193 on: March 25, 2022, 12:30:07 AM »
Pat Burke--thanks for taking the time to type that. Regarding PGAT issues, your opinion is more equal than others'.  ;)


Honestly, just have fun sharing my experience in certain areas.  There are plenty of times I got in trouble when I played because Iím not disciplined enough to NOT answer questions. 


But I can say, dealing with the Commissioner and the tour with my own selfish case was the worst professional experience of my life, and Iíve worked at a ClubCorp facility in my past! :D .


The opportunities To play were amazing.  The staff I dealt with were top shelf.   Everything as a competitor was amazing.
Everything as a journeyman dealing with the business was less so. The bureaucracy at the top was just terrible for me.     
Hi Pat thank you for the insights. Was it so difficult because of lack of rules/guidelines? Interpretation of them or just callousness to journeymen on most every level?
I know you don't have a union and are independent contractors so maybe they just treat the journeymen poorly.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Kalen Braley

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #194 on: March 25, 2022, 10:57:27 AM »
Pat Burke--thanks for taking the time to type that. Regarding PGAT issues, your opinion is more equal than others'.  ;)


Honestly, just have fun sharing my experience in certain areas.  There are plenty of times I got in trouble when I played because Iím not disciplined enough to NOT answer questions. 


But I can say, dealing with the Commissioner and the tour with my own selfish case was the worst professional experience of my life, and Iíve worked at a ClubCorp facility in my past! :D .


The opportunities To play were amazing.  The staff I dealt with were top shelf.   Everything as a competitor was amazing.
Everything as a journeyman dealing with the business was less so. The bureaucracy at the top was just terrible for me.     
Hi Pat thank you for the insights. Was it so difficult because of lack of rules/guidelines? Interpretation of them or just callousness to journeymen on most every level?
I know you don't have a union and are independent contractors so maybe they just treat the journeymen poorly.


Jeff,

If I can hazard a guess before Pat chimes in

I suspect its like most other places where the stars...aka top employees... get all the best perks, promotions, attention, issues addressed, etc. and everyone else basically gets told, be happy you have a job here and get back to work. ;)

Pat Burke

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #195 on: March 25, 2022, 11:33:50 PM »
Kalen pretty well summed it up nicely.


Again, please understand, this is my experience.  But I do believe the tour is amazing. But I get frustrated when I hear how great the pension is and I know a lot of players who have no pension at all, and with  a similar career in hockey/baseball/football would have something.
I am definitely a fan of ďplay better make moreĒ, but pensions to me should be also be available a bit deeper.


Much has changed since I played though and I would likely have something with a similar career today.


But a lot of players from before my time were on the outside looking in.  Much like the NHL years back, they were dragged in to doing something to help guys that helped build the league.


Thatís a serious gripe of mine. Haha
But I do believe there were different rules for different players at times. Direct and honest from the top was not the priority all the time imo

Lou_Duran

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #196 on: March 26, 2022, 11:50:14 AM »

PB,

There was an article some time ago, I believe in Golf Digest, which outlined the Tour's pension program from information it had acquired (perhaps second hand) from an unnamed original source.  My recollection is that players "earned" points based on cuts made as opposed to actual $ made from the purse.  I thought that the threshold for the # of cuts made to vest was considerably lower than the 76 you made.  The impression I got at that time is that the plan was pretty well-balanced.  I have to wonder why the Tour is not totally transparent with this.


While I tend to fall closer philosophically with the Pareto Principle (80% of outcomes result from 20% of causes) than any number of politicians and some here who spouse the "... you didn't build that.  Somebody else made it happen.", you were an important part of competitive professional golf and some of the "riches" should flow to you and all other journeymen.  I think Football has found a way to compensate players not previously covered by current agreements.  The PGA Tour certainly has the money to be more inclusive and I hope that you and your colleagues press the matter.


I agree that Lefty is his own worse enemy- "loose tongues sink ships", but I really don't care if his motivation was mostly selfish as many seem to allege.  The PGA Tour, like any large, well-financed bureaucracy, could use a heavy prod from an alternative organization.  Tour administrators may claim that the players "didn't build that", but the apparent over-reaction to Michelson suggests otherwise.

cary lichtenstein

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #197 on: March 27, 2022, 09:20:27 PM »
I'm still curious as to the length of his suspension, anyone have inside information?
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Steve Lapper

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #198 on: March 28, 2022, 06:04:36 AM »
I'm still curious as to the length of his suspension, anyone have inside information?


A very well placed source told me later last week that it is "indefinite, with some agreement to review within a specified period of time."


Furthermore, he said Phil's quotes to Alan Shipnuck were only the "(public) tip of the iceberg and that several other salacious words were spoken with Tour officials." That along with Phil's open admission to proactively working to both further the PGL/LIV AND discredit the PGA Tour is what led to the suspension and losing his sponsors.


FWIW, the source opined that he thought Phil was easily the greediest malcontent on the Tour and mentioned that a good number of players had actually thanked senior officials of the tour for suspending FIGJAM.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith


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