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Carl Johnson

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Steve Abt

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2022, 10:44:59 PM »
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« Last Edit: February 19, 2022, 01:32:54 AM by Steve Abt »

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2022, 08:19:20 AM »
I am saddened by his selfish take and his blindness to human rights violations. It is as if he says, if I can make more money than I am ok with their poor human rights record.
Tom Williamsen
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

Bernie Bell

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2022, 08:38:20 AM »
I am saddened by his selfish take and his blindness to human rights violations. It is as if he says, if I can make more money than I am ok with their poor human rights record.


No different than the NBA, Nike, Apple, NBC, etc. with the genocidal regime in China.  It's relatively easy to strike a pose when it's the Saudis, suddenly "more complicated" for athletes and other professionals when they're dealing with the world's second largest economy.

A.G._Crockett

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2022, 09:18:11 AM »
It is amusing, and perhaps a bit pathetic, see guys like Mickelson and Hoffman generate over the top rationalizations for a pretty simple motivation.


It really makes me wonder a bit if Mickelson is in some degree of financial difficulty. He stands to gain ONLY money, while the reputational risk as well as a possible lifetime ban as an organizer, seems significant, at least to me.


For instance, I can imagine a day 20+ years down the road where Tiger is at ANGC as an honorary starter for the rest of his days. If Mickelson goes through with this, I have a hard time seeing him there on Thursday morning. ANGC can do as they please, but stillÖ
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Steve Lapper

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2022, 11:11:41 AM »
I am saddened by his selfish take and his blindness to human rights violations. It is as if he says, if I can make more money than I am ok with their poor human rights record.


No different than the NBA, Nike, Apple, NBC, etc. with the genocidal regime in China.  It's relatively easy to strike a pose when it's the Saudis, suddenly "more complicated" for athletes and other professionals when they're dealing with the world's second largest economy.
\


Haven't yet heard of the Chinese deploying a team of chainsaw artists abroad to dismember a renown journalist for his dissident opinions, but perhaps I'm early?


This is little more than sheer $$$ grab by a handful of tour pros, most of whom are past their prime or just principle-lite. I'm quite sure they've got plans to pair themselves with US venues of similar philosophy. A match made in heaven. Have at it.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

MCirba

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2022, 11:24:01 AM »
Steve,

Perhaps they could have little chainsaws as tee markers?   
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2022, 11:26:26 AM »
I am saddened by his selfish take and his blindness to human rights violations. It is as if he says, if I can make more money than I am ok with their poor human rights record.


No different than the NBA, Nike, Apple, NBC, etc. with the genocidal regime in China.  It's relatively easy to strike a pose when it's the Saudis, suddenly "more complicated" for athletes and other professionals when they're dealing with the world's second largest economy.
\


Haven't yet heard of the Chinese deploying a team of chainsaw artists abroad to dismember a renown journalist for his dissident opinions, but perhaps I'm early?


This is little more than sheer $$$ grab by a handful of tour pros, most of whom are past their prime or just principle-lite. I'm quite sure they've got plans to pair themselves with US venues of similar philosophy. A match made in heaven. Have at it.


And the Chinese arenít currently attempting coup of world golf. 


When I was a kid, my father rarely accepted the ďwhat aboutÖĒ defense for otherwise indefensible actions.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Steve Lapper

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2022, 11:42:12 AM »
Steve,

Perhaps they could have little chainsaws as tee markers?


With a bare-chested Aussie playing Paul Bunyan holding one!
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Bernie Bell

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Carl Rogers

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2022, 01:31:10 PM »
The various dictators and autocrats around the world have much of the international media conglomerates, prominent sports superstars & financial markets well pegged.


If the return on investment is good enough, then anything is tolerated.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2022, 01:45:28 PM »
I am saddened by his selfish take and his blindness to human rights violations. It is as if he says, if I can make more money than I am ok with their poor human rights record.

No different than the NBA, Nike, Apple, NBC, etc. with the genocidal regime in China.  It's relatively easy to strike a pose when it's the Saudis, suddenly "more complicated" for athletes and other professionals when they're dealing with the world's second largest economy.


Bernie,

This is easy to say but a few counter points:

1)  I don't think its even possible to participate in society in the US and not buy at least some items made in China, even if you don't know it.  A few notable exceptions could be for those who live off the grid or something and never ever go to Walmart, Target, Home Depot, etc.

2)  I don't see any of those athletes lined up to actually play in a competing league in China, which would be the case for this new tour as I understand it with several mandatory events to be held in SA.

Bernie Bell

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2022, 02:44:09 PM »
Kalen -
1/ You make my point.  It's easy to cast the stone when it's just a signal.  When it actually costs something, there's your test of principle.
2/  Take a close look at PGA China.  And turn on NBC right now to the Olympics.  I'm not defending Norman.  But if we're not applying the same yardstick to doing business with the Chinese, let's not pretend it's on principle.

Tom_Doak

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2022, 02:47:51 PM »
All of the sanctimony over these issues - whether itís in favor of boycotting a country or in favor of the individualís right to choose whether to take their money - is full of hypocrisy, but especially when it comes from people who arenít giving up anything to take their stand.


I have turned down repeated inquiries about projects in Saudi Arabia, because my family wouldnít be comfortable with me working there, and I wouldnít be comfortable sending my associates there.  Sure, the $ is tempting, and it would be easy to rationalize that Saudi people deserve good golf courses, too, and find someone who was happy to do most of the on site work on my behalf.  But if Iím not willing to go myself, I donít think itís ethical to do a workaround.


But, if I were comfortable doing so, who are you guys to police my choices?  What difference does it make whether I work for Saudi money or not, when it is all legitimized by the US government and financed by US banks?


If you want to protest the Saudi regime, tell the President not to kiss their ring, and that youíre willing to pay more for gasoline to stop propping them up.  And take your $$ out of the banks who do business with them.  Quit hiding behind a silly golf protest that wonít change anything about whatís going on over there, so that you donít have to make any tough decisions that affect your own life.

A.G._Crockett

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2022, 04:10:22 PM »
All of the sanctimony over these issues - whether itís in favor of boycotting a country or in favor of the individualís right to choose whether to take their money - is full of hypocrisy, but especially when it comes from people who arenít giving up anything to take their stand.


I have turned down repeated inquiries about projects in Saudi Arabia, because my family wouldnít be comfortable with me working there, and I wouldnít be comfortable sending my associates there.  Sure, the $ is tempting, and it would be easy to rationalize that Saudi people deserve good golf courses, too, and find someone who was happy to do most of the on site work on my behalf.  But if Iím not willing to go myself, I donít think itís ethical to do a workaround.


But, if I were comfortable doing so, who are you guys to police my choices?  What difference does it make whether I work for Saudi money or not, when it is all legitimized by the US government and financed by US banks?


If you want to protest the Saudi regime, tell the President not to kiss their ring, and that youíre willing to pay more for gasoline to stop propping them up.  And take your $$ out of the banks who do business with them.  Quit hiding behind a silly golf protest that wonít change anything about whatís going on over there, so that you donít have to make any tough decisions that affect your own life.
Tom,I won't speak for others, but I do not take the position on Mickelson that you describe.
I cop 100% to putting my own economic interests front and center; I buy Chinese goods, and I assume my bank does business with the Saudis. 

I see a very clear difference between the pros that simply say that they are going to take once-in-a-lifetime money, and guys like Mickelson and Hoffman who are concocting elaborate and over-the-top rationalizations for taking the money.
Where has Phil's outrage over the PGA Tour owning media rights been all these years?  He's 51, and has NEVER been shy about sharing his opinions.  He calls this a "once in a lifetime chance to remake the PGA Tour"; where's that been until now?  Hoffman said last week that he doesn't blame guys for leaving because he hit his ball in the water and then had a weird piece of bad luck afterwards.  Apparently he believes that the Saudi tour will NOT play by the Rules of Golf, or that he won't have to, or won't have bad luck there?  Gimme a break...
If you want (or need!) the money, then take it.  But have the onions to say so, instead of peeing on my leg and expecting me to believe you when you say it's raining.  That, in effect, is what Phil is doing, and that's MUCH more of a problem for me than the Saudis vs the Chinese, or what my bank is or isn't doing, or any of the rest of this.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Tim_Cronin

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2022, 04:34:21 PM »
Meanwhile, you'll never guess who's in line to host some tournaments in the U.S.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/02/19/trump-saudi-arabia-golf/


But of course.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +0/-1
Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2022, 04:46:12 PM »

Tom,I won't speak for others, but I do not take the position on Mickelson that you describe.
I cop 100% to putting my own economic interests front and center; I buy Chinese goods, and I assume my bank does business with the Saudis. 

I see a very clear difference between the pros that simply say that they are going to take once-in-a-lifetime money, and guys like Mickelson and Hoffman who are concocting elaborate and over-the-top rationalizations for taking the money.
Where has Phil's outrage over the PGA Tour owning media rights been all these years?  He's 51, and has NEVER been shy about sharing his opinions.  He calls this a "once in a lifetime chance to remake the PGA Tour"; where's that been until now?  Hoffman said last week that he doesn't blame guys for leaving because he hit his ball in the water and then had a weird piece of bad luck afterwards.  Apparently he believes that the Saudi tour will NOT play by the Rules of Golf, or that he won't have to, or won't have bad luck there?  Gimme a break...
If you want (or need!) the money, then take it.  But have the onions to say so, instead of peeing on my leg and expecting me to believe you when you say it's raining.  That, in effect, is what Phil is doing, and that's MUCH more of a problem for me than the Saudis vs the Chinese, or what my bank is or isn't doing, or any of the rest of this.


A.G.:


I haven't even read what Mickelson said, but I agree with your general view, which is why my first sentence read the way it did.


But I really don't give a crap what Phil Mickelson is doing, much less how he rationalizes it.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2022, 05:56:44 PM »
All of the sanctimony over these issues - whether itís in favor of boycotting a country or in favor of the individualís right to choose whether to take their money - is full of hypocrisy, but especially when it comes from people who arenít giving up anything to take their stand.

Tom, very seldom do I comment on statements that are not about golf on this forum. Folks are entitled to speak to issues whether or not they have skin in the game. When folks refrain from commenting, evil has a better chance of succeeding. I agree that it is better to be actively involved and I commend you for refraining to work for the Saudis.  You do not know what I do or have done in the international scene. I do grow weary of your holier than thou attitude.
 
Tom Williamsen
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

Bill Gayne

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2022, 07:04:47 PM »
Deleted with repeat of previous post.

John Kirk

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2022, 07:09:32 PM »
"The PGA Tour announced to its membership Monday significant increases coming to its prize money and payout structures for the new year...Total tournament prize money next year will jump from $367 million to $427 million, according to the memo."

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/pga-tour-2022-prize-money

That's a 16% increase, comfortably greater than the estimated 6-8% inflation for the year.  This simplistic analysis does not account for the actual profitability of the tour, nor the percentage of money used for overhead and support salaries.

I checked the PGA official money leaders for 2020, plus a few other years for comparison.  In 2020, 124 golfers made over $1M in prize money.

https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.109.y2021.html

Most players have significant income from various endorsements, which is reported to be equal or greater to the prize money.

The top 150 athletes in the major American sports make more than professional golfers, perhaps 3-5 times as much.  I'm just amazed at how much money is available to these athletes.  Willie Mays made $125k in 1967, the game's top salary.  That is 17.4 times the average household income of $7,200.  In 2019, the highest paid baseball player was pitcher Stephen Strausburg at $38.33M, which was 558 times higher than the average household income of $68,700.  (using Googled data)

I'm not trying too hard to make a point here.  I could, but it wouldn't be prudent.




Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2022, 07:15:48 PM »
The top 150 athletes in the major American sports make more than professional golfers
The NFL and NBA also make a lot more money than the PGA Tour.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, and Lifetime Student of the Game

JohnVDB

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2022, 09:09:36 PM »
The top 150 athletes in the major American sports make more than professional golfers
The NFL and NBA also make a lot more money than the PGA Tour.


Right.


According to reports Iíve read, the percentage of money going to the players is pretty close for the NBA, NFL and PGA Tour.


A.G.,


Regarding the Rules, Hoffman might like to know the Slugger White is the head rules official for the Saudi Tour and I am pretty sure he wonít be writing any new rules of play for them.

Carl Johnson

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2022, 10:40:05 PM »
Update, Trump courses: https://wapo.st/3sPrJqJ

John Kirk

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2022, 11:17:59 PM »
This is a tough subject to dance around because it could easily devolve into an unhealthy political thread.  This subject makes me feel patriotic and supportive of our national golf tour, and the great American players who participate in our country.  It is so easy and effective to criticize imperfections, and there will always be forces trying to tear down the institutions with the most power.


JVB, thanks for the follow up.     

Kalen Braley

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Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2022, 01:01:15 AM »
Tom D,

I agree with Tommy's comments.  How hard is it to actually turn down Saudi money, when according to your own comments over last 6 months, you already have more business than you can commit too?

As for the average joe who struggles month to month just to make ends meet, its often times far more difficult to take such stand when buying cheap Chinese goods is the only way to meet basic needs.

As John alluded to, many of the worlds problems lies not in the have nots wanting more, but in convincing those who have more than they can possibly spend in 100 lifetimes that they have enough.

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