News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, and Lifetime Student of the Game

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #376 on: June 06, 2022, 11:31:38 PM »
I have always thought PM was a fake and always cheered against him except on the Ryder Cup. Fake smile, fake thumbs up and now he will fit in well on a fake pro tour. His game speaks for itself and he's earned everything he's accomplished on the course. Outwardly he still comes off as a fake playing on a tour bankrolled by mf'n(his words) thugs. I won't miss him and will continue to wish him nothing but bad luck in the majors he does play in.


Tim, I’m confused by your post. Do you like Phil or not? ;D
"I used to get pissed at blowing leads until I quit having them" John Kavanaugh

AChao

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #377 on: June 07, 2022, 12:49:37 AM »
Just curious … would people be as bothered if the sponsoring entity was the government of Portugal or Taiwan or similar country?  Just curious if it’s Saudi Arabia that people have a problem with or a rival tour or both.

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #378 on: June 07, 2022, 01:53:14 AM »

Just curious … would people be as bothered if the sponsoring entity was the government of Portugal or Taiwan or similar country?  Just curious if it’s Saudi Arabia that people have a problem with or a rival tour or both.

Saudi money is a convenient excuse.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #379 on: June 07, 2022, 06:43:21 AM »
Saudi money is a convenient excuse.
"Excuse" implies a bit that it's not a valid reason. I think if you sub out "Saudi Arabia" for "Canada" plenty of people would have liked the idea of the Tour (gathering hopefully about 48 of the top 60 or 70 players, not the crappy field they have now), the word "sports washing" wouldn't have been used, and so on.

Is the Saudi $ and their goal of sportswashing not more than an "excuse"?

I finished the Phil/Shipnuck book. It was a big pile of "nothing new" here if you've followed Phil's career and listened to some of the Shipnuck podcasts. Too much time was spent re-counting rounds of golf or tournaments, which everyone knows and which aren't that exciting (as they require almost no behind-the-scenes access). The book is as he said: if you were a fan of Phil before, you'll like him a bit more. If you weren't, you'll have a little more ammo (though again, the podcasts give you all of that). If you're like me and don't like or dislike him, well, you'll come out of it not having changed your opinion. I recognize all the good he's done, but also how dumb he's been. Every time I start to feel like I can tolerate and start to like him a little, he slaps a ball in motion on the putting green and then tells people he did it on purpose and to get over it.  ::)  So, meh. Except for Bones, he seems to be genuinely good to the people with whom he's closest, and that's good.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, and Lifetime Student of the Game

Ben Attwood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #380 on: June 07, 2022, 07:24:58 AM »
Saudi money is a convenient excuse.
"Excuse" implies a bit that it's not a valid reason. I think if you sub out "Saudi Arabia" for "Canada" plenty of people would have liked the idea of the Tour (gathering hopefully about 48 of the top 60 or 70 players, not the crappy field they have now), the word "sports washing" wouldn't have been used, and so on.

Is the Saudi $ and their goal of sportswashing not more than an "excuse"?


Yes it is, but not more than the PGA tour sports washing for the USA.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #381 on: June 07, 2022, 07:36:01 AM »
Yes it is, but not more than the PGA tour sports washing for the USA.
Oh brother. That's a bullshit type comment to make on more than one level.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, and Lifetime Student of the Game

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #382 on: June 07, 2022, 03:08:59 PM »
  I was not aware of the term “sports washing” before this mess, but apparently it’s a thing and considered an unabashed bad thing. Today, Grahame McDowell defended his decision, patting  himself on the back, by saying he hoped he could help the Saudi’s turn their image around, notwithstanding the facts surrounding Khashoggi’s death. As I understand it, that is sports washing.

Peter Pallotta

Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #383 on: June 07, 2022, 04:11:51 PM »
I note that for 3+ decades business and government leaders of all political stripes and from every corner of the world have travelled to Beijing to 'foster ever-closer relationships' with the CCP. And every one of those leaders, when asked about the message that such visits might convey in light of various human rights abuses (Falun Gong, Tibet, Hong Kong etc), justify themselves with essentially the same words:
"Let me be completely frank. I firmly believe that best way to promote lasting human rights is not to isolate China, or to denigrate its forward-looking initiatives, on the climate change and green energy fronts for example, but instead to actively and robustly engage with Communist Party officials on a broad range of socio-political and economic issues, including the vitally important trade and investment file, and thus to expose them -- over time -- ever more fully to the very best of our liberal democratic values and traditions, such as our profound and abiding respect for pluralism, diversity, freedom and human rights".
All of which is to say: McDowell (et.al) is merely borrowing the language and rationales of the business and political class world over -- who have for decades lauded the importance to the global economy of such 'strong partnerships', and have celebrated sporting events such as the 2008 Beijing Olympics that 'bring the whole of world together'.
Do you think they've been right to do so, or instead very wrong?

« Last Edit: June 07, 2022, 04:45:26 PM by PPallotta »

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #384 on: June 07, 2022, 04:33:46 PM »
   Until I became aware of the term sports washing, it always seemed to me that anyone can do whatever they want for whatever money they can make, so long as it’s legal. The public relations fallout is just part of the decision making process. But trying to use the “washing” as a virtue just seems dumb and objectively wrong.

Peter Pallotta

Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #385 on: June 07, 2022, 05:05:56 PM »
Excuse me, Jim - I realized after I posted that it looked like I was referring to you (without the courtesy of mentioning you by name), and asking you those questions specially.
I wasn't. I was just posting a related thought after 16 pages of thread talk, and asking a rhetorical question to us all.


Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #386 on: June 07, 2022, 06:07:21 PM »
Delete
« Last Edit: June 07, 2022, 06:16:00 PM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +0/-1
Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #387 on: June 07, 2022, 07:22:59 PM »
I just thought it was funny that the USGA released a statement today that they'd decided not to disqualify guys from the U.S. "OPEN" based on their Tour affiliation . . . as if they had seriously considered any other choice . . . and as if they are not the most litigation-averse body in the game.


Those "golf leaders" have spent a lot of time around each other the past few years, but I think the TOUR has been counting on more support than they're going to get from the owners of at least three of the four major championships.  They might be able to lean on the PGA of America, especially since so many of the guys who have signed up for the LIV so far are overseas players, but I believe that's all they've got.

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #388 on: June 07, 2022, 07:33:59 PM »

Do you think they've been right to do so, or instead very wrong?


Does not matter what I "think". I disagree with Phil's decision due to my closeness with the family of Ensign Joshua Watson who maybe saved my son's life, and certainly saved other's lives, when a Saudi Flight Student opened fired at NAS Pensacola in December 2019: https://usnamemorialhall.org/index.php/JOSHUA_K._WATSON,_ENS,_USN

That said, this is the USA, Phil is protected by the US Constitution, and I support our system that allows Phil to make a bad decision - in my view. From Rome & Berlin in The Olympics, to now London for golf, international sport has always been a safe and controversial way to engage in conversation with enemies, allies, and sort of allies. (Edit - I forgot Munich '72 in terms of "safe")

Ignatius of Loyola preceded the US Constitution when he said:

“It is dangerous to make everybody go forward by the same road: and worse to measure others by oneself.” ― Saint Ignatius (of Loyola)
« Last Edit: June 07, 2022, 07:36:14 PM by Mike Sweeney »
"We need to allow people to make decisions for themselves and their local communities and families. Trying to tie everything into one package simply does not work." 5/11/21

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #389 on: June 07, 2022, 08:15:05 PM »
It is not inconceivable that Phil is an idiot.


Bogey


An idiot that will soon be $200 million richer. ;D

Peter Pallotta

Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #390 on: June 07, 2022, 08:52:27 PM »
People here and over the years have criticized Phil as a fake and a fraud. But in his comments today he came as close to openly talking about significant mental health issues and full blown addictions as any big star ever has; and as anyone who has grappled with addictions and mental health issues knows, it's not a matter of intentionally fooling people or of being a hypocrite, but instead of trying desperately to hide (sometimes especially from yourself) what feels like a dark and ugly secret, and of overcompensating for the feelings of shame and self-contempt always threatening to overwhelm you so that you might be able -- through your outward successes and achievements -- to somehow makes amends, especially to those you love most and who have stood by you. That's what I think, anyways; Phil is no more -- or less -- a moral failure than I am. What separates PM from many other addicts and troubled souls is only that he has a talent and is in a profession that society has decided to reward incredibly handsomely, and to treat with kid gloves. I won't hold that against him.


« Last Edit: June 07, 2022, 09:02:07 PM by PPallotta »

Jim Sullivan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #391 on: June 07, 2022, 10:25:30 PM »
Great couple of posts my Friend.


I need to get to BC!

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #392 on: June 07, 2022, 10:29:53 PM »
   I understand that an addiction to a drug or tobacco can be caused by a chemical dependence and become a disease and not necessarily a matter of free will. Is addiction to gambling of the same ilk?

Jim Sullivan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #393 on: June 07, 2022, 10:37:49 PM »
In that there becomes a complete severing from reality, I’d say yes…

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #394 on: June 07, 2022, 11:30:02 PM »
   I think I’m asking a science question, not an opinion question.

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #395 on: June 07, 2022, 11:31:43 PM »
   I understand that an addiction to a drug or tobacco can be caused by a chemical dependence and become a disease and not necessarily a matter of free will. Is addiction to gambling of the same ilk?


Don't quote me, I'm not a psychologist, just a biologist turned writer, but there are plenty of chemicals produced by your body that are addictive in one way or another.


Dopamine, for instance.  It's a factor in real addictions like drugs, but exercise can produce it, and it's one of best ways to get out of mild depression.  I have suffered for long time, and my wife will sometimes say, "Go for a bike ride, you need it."  three or four hours on a bicycle work wonders for me.


Gambling, and the thrill of it, absolutely have to produce chemicals that make some people feel alive.  Being a risk-taker on the golf course would as well.
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #396 on: June 08, 2022, 05:51:28 AM »
People here and over the years have criticized Phil as a fake and a fraud. But in his comments today he came as close to openly talking about significant mental health issues and full blown addictions as any big star ever has; and as anyone who has grappled with addictions and mental health issues knows, it's not a matter of intentionally fooling people or of being a hypocrite, but instead of trying desperately to hide (sometimes especially from yourself) what feels like a dark and ugly secret, and of overcompensating for the feelings of shame and self-contempt always threatening to overwhelm you so that you might be able -- through your outward successes and achievements -- to somehow makes amends, especially to those you love most and who have stood by you. That's what I think, anyways; Phil is no more -- or less -- a moral failure than I am. What separates PM from many other addicts and troubled souls is only that he has a talent and is in a profession that society has decided to reward incredibly handsomely, and to treat with kid gloves. I won't hold that against him.


Peter,


Good morning. That was a really insightful post. Thanks for your thoughtfulness.
"We need to allow people to make decisions for themselves and their local communities and families. Trying to tie everything into one package simply does not work." 5/11/21

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #397 on: June 08, 2022, 08:01:28 AM »
 ;D Lot of good stuff here guys , thanks to all.  Gambling is an addiction for sure , seen lots of it here in Atlantic City over the years. Moderation of course being the need. It's fun to have some action on the course but limits you know


Phil doesn't deserve a lot of sympathy in my eyes. His life has been full of success and joy along with the suffering most of us see at one time or another. He's a great player for sure. I'm all for playing wherever you want but if it's a political problem with the toour address it publicly. He's certainly got a podium to speak from.


It sure looks like a money grab by Norman , Phil and all the leaders for sure. If Pablo Escobar had a tour with cartel money many of these guys would "sign on" , just saying

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #398 on: June 08, 2022, 11:20:39 AM »
If we were to review all sponsors on all major tours, how many do you think we’d find that have sone business or investment ties to Saudi Arabia?


If sone do but we don’t know about it, is it ok?

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
« Reply #399 on: June 08, 2022, 11:30:48 AM »
If we were to review all sponsors on all major tours, how many do you think we’d find that have sone business or investment ties to Saudi Arabia?


If sone do but we don’t know about it, is it ok?


Business in or investment ties to the S.A. Kingdom are very different than being wholly sponsored by the country's sovereign wealth fund. Several different degrees make quite the difference.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back