[Forrest Richardson]

I visited Moundbuilders 20 years ago. Mike Hurdzan added the second nine and explained that it was the whole idea of golf that preserved the ancient mounds. Without the golf course the mounds would have been bulldozed long ago. Interesting now that it may be the end of the golf course...one reason could be that the club never allowed access to the intensity it should have. I recall a very lame viewing stand off to the edge where people could come and "see" some of the mounds from a distance. Probably should have been a more robust trail system and interaction, which would have been good for both the mounds — and golf.

https://www.newarkadvocate.com/story/news/2019/05/13/moundbuilders-country-club-plans-appeal-ruling-octagon-mounds/1188321001/

[Ronald Montesano]

Is there one area of mounds, in the northeast corner of the property? That's what I see from the aerial on Google Maps. It's odd, then, that the public memorial is directly opposite, adjacent to the southwest corner of the property. My guess is, OHC needed leverage to build access. Now that they have it, the club will acquiesce and create an access point off W Church street, just beyond City Barbeque.

[Joe_Tucholski]

Weird stuff.  I played in 2018 with C Sturges and E Fliescher as part of the Midwest knockout.  The course was a unique experience and I found my ball on the mounds on more than one occasion.  The back 9 near the river had some nice holes.  If they could get a reasonable amount of money ($800,000 is not reasonable) moving could result in a better course.


As far as the mounds go it looks like there are less than 10,000 visitors annually.  They aren't particularly impressive.  Folks want to remove the golf course because the site isn't being considered for world heritage designation unless the golf course is gone.  The site would likely see an increase in the number of visitors with such a designation because people chase lists like that but I can't imagine it will ever be a real tourist draw.  There are other mounds that have the designation in Ohio as well.

[Forrest Richardson]

I believe the location of the mounds is correct.

Find it interesting in many situations that the rounds of golf often surpass the non-golfers in parks settings. This is a good example...very likely MORE GOLFERS ENJOY THE MOUNDS than visitors to the historical park itself. How ironic. Apparently annual rounds by golfers "enjoying" the mounds and park setting do not count.

We had a similar situation at Baylands Golf Links (Palo Alto) when at a hearing it was suggested that the golf course landscape was of paramount importance since people from the trail running along side the course would "have to look at the course when hiking and jogging," to which I asked how many people used the trail each day. The answer was about 75 per day, and each trail user would spend about 45 minutes on the trail during their hike. To which I pointed out that more than 150 golfers would be using the course each day, and that they would be spending about 4 hours playing golf...and ultimately it was actually the landscape of the trail that should be made to look as good as possible from the golf course, not the other way around.

Of course, we made the golf course look as good as possible. The point is really that golfers using the outdoors for recreation are seldom given the weight they should be as equal users of recreation space. Double standard.

[Chris_Blakely]

I really Moundbuilders is not lost.  I really enjoyed this course and found the course very sympathetically plays in and around the mounds.


Chris

[Tom_Doak]

It would be a shame if Moundbuilders went away, but from the time I visited there 3 years ago, they've appeared to be headed in that direction . . . they called me the year after to ask what it would cost to build a new course a few miles away, if they had to.


It's a small town club and they don't generate a lot of outside revenue, so they face the same pressures as many small clubs do.  Except they also have some vultures looking on.



Forrest's point is excellent that more GOLFERS enjoy the mounds, than actual visitors to the mounds.  The place is a great example of how golf can preserve a landscape and interact with it in a meaningful way.  No wonder the "conservationists" want it gone.

[Forrest Richardson]

"Conservationists" typically focus on a micro point of view. It amuses me to hear of "conservationist" movements, while realizing these same individuals think nothing of the massive amount of square miles of roads, streets and highways that they take for granted every day to get to and from their homes, public hearings and activist meetings. All that built environment is "OK" and acceptable because THEY use it and expect it to yield THEIR quality of life. Rarely do they consider the many others outside their cocoon, or the pursuits and lives of anyone who may have a different perspective.

I believe you can be a "conservationist" in many ways, not just per a one-sided definition .

[Ian Andrew]

OK, I guess I'm the contrasting view on this.
There are places golf shouldn't be ... and for me this is one of them.

I'm glad the golf course saved the mounds.
But I'm also glad that they finally realize that this should be handled differently than it is.
It's never too late to do the right thing with a culturally important site.

How can you believe in the preservation of golf of historic courses and not feel the same way about important landscapes that are not golf.

[Forrest Richardson]

Well, the ancient mounds need to be covered with something, or they will blow and erode away. To me, 25,000 golf rounds at Moundbuilders — along with a nice park, trails and viewing platform for non golfers — probably does more to educate the population in general than closing the area and letting it cater to perhaps 5,000 annual visits of just non-golfers. BTW, those are my "guesstimate" numbers. I truly have no idea, except that Mike Hurdzan told me that not many non-golfers ever went to visit the mounds.

I wonder how many more people know about the mounds at Moundbuilders because there has been a golf course there for nearly a century — than would have known if there were no golfers, sweaters with "MOUNDBUILDERS" embroidered on them, proud club members, neighbors, etc.

Interesting: Our work in Sweden has an ancient burial mound (different than Moundbuilders, yet still involves "mounds"). There are so many in Sweden that they are regularly farmed around and built around — they simply become part of whatever needs to be built in that area. Different viewpoint.

[Josh Bills]

The Ohio Supreme Court today ruled that the Ohio History Connection can proceed with its efforts in the trial court to transform the Octagon Earthworks into a public park through eminent domain and extinguish the Moundbuilders CC lease on the land.  Looks like this course will be going away. 


https://www.supremecourt.ohio.gov/pdf_viewer/pdf_viewer.aspx?pdf=231702.pdf&subdirectory=2020-0191\DecisionItems&source=DL_Clerk

[Forrest Richardson]

Calling Mike Keiser — Along with the re-creation of a vision of one of the greats of golf design, perhaps it would good for the game to re-create Moundbuilders — the work of a golf course architect AND ancient peoples. Imagine the goodwill, not to mention how that goodwill would extend long beyond "golf" and our "inside the game" mentality.

[Tom_Doak]

Calling Mike Keiser — Along with the re-creation of a vision of one of the greats of golf design, perhaps it would good for the game to re-create Moundbuilders — the work of a golf course architect AND ancient peoples. Imagine the goodwill, not to mention how that goodwill would extend long beyond "golf" and our "inside the game" mentality.

Unfortunately that might be seen as "cultural appropriation".


I will be sad to see the course go, even though I wouldn't say it is a great course.  It was a unique course, though, and I'm all for those.


As to the cultural issues, we had a similar feature on the new project in New Zealand, a Maori pa [fortress] up by the 6th tee of Te Arai North.  It was pretty much hidden by the planted pine forest until you got right up on it, but I wanted to clear out all of the pines and put the tee up on the edge of the defensive earthworks, so golfers could appreciate what it was.  It was the tribe who actually sold the land to my client, so we had a meeting with their leader, and he was fine with showing it off as long as we just stayed on the edge of the feature and access to the top of it was restricted.  He even volunteered to come and cut all the pine trees down personally so that everyone would see it!

[Brad Tufts]

I'm glad I got to this one.  I feel like one could sort of see the writing on the wall...conditions were good but not amazing, the clubhouse looks tired, the shop only had a smattering of items.


The course is unique for sure, but the best holes skirt the ravine/river on the far side of the property, save for the one wow hole with the green within the earthen ring.


You could argue chicken vs. egg with the course preserving the mounds or vice-versa, but it is sad that the club will likely get little recognition for their logistical preservation.


In terms of a new course, will the club have the money?  Might be a cool concept to build the same mounds on a new property and use them more strategically for golf on a new course...they are generally used on the margins or as carry hazards on the current course.

[Tom_Doak]

In terms of a new course, will the club have the money?  Might be a cool concept to build the same mounds on a new property and use them more strategically for golf on a new course...they are generally used on the margins or as carry hazards on the current course.

If it's taken by eminent domain, there will be a payout, but there are doubts whether the payout will be enough to build a new course, considering the costs these days.  It could be that the club will just fold.

[Forrest Richardson]

If its "cultural appropriation" then we [golf] owe a lot to hunting...after all, golf is the "hunt", only revised on modern [c. 1500s] terms and by using a ball to represent the prey...and a hole to represent the conquest. Our fairways are the savannas, our clubhouses the outposts and shelters. Our foursomes the hunters, our caddies the guides.

I don't give a wit if someone thinks its cultural appropriation...it would be recreating what exists now. Would it be better to recreate the moundbuilder's work as a small scale model, set behind glass with a pushbutton to trigger an endless narrative of what they did, how they did it, etc? To me, sending kids and adults out across the open land — actually on the mounds — is a far better education, and homage to the ancient "art", symbolism and shrines of these people.

Still have my Moundbuilders shirt. I'll wear it tomorrow

[Charlie Goerges]

If its "cultural appropriation" then we [golf] owe a lot to hunting...after all, golf is the "hunt", only revised on modern [c. 1500s] terms and by using a ball to represent the prey...and a hole to represent the conquest. Our fairways are the savannas, our clubhouses the outposts and shelters. Our foursomes the hunters, our caddies the guides.

I don't give a wit if someone thinks its cultural appropriation...it would be recreating what exists now. Would it be better to recreate the moundbuilder's work as a small scale model, set behind glass with a pushbutton to trigger an endless narrative of what they did, how they did it, etc? To me, sending kids and adults out across the open land — actually on the mounds — is a far better education, and homage to the ancient "art", symbolism and shrines of these people.

Still have my Moundbuilders shirt. I'll wear it tomorrow

Try not to minimize the issue of cultural appropriation, Forrest. There are many aspects that must be considered including issues of finance, power, and consent. That said, it's possible that it can be accomplished if it's approached in good faith. Doesn't mean it will be though.

[David_Tepper]

BBC article about the mounds:

https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20221204-the-us-2000-year-old-mystery-mounds?utm_source=pocket-newtab

[Richard Hetzel]

Another good story. I am going to try and play there in the Spring, assuming they are still open.


 https://abc6onyourside.com/news/local/moundbuilders-country-club-fights-state-to-keep-golf-course-on-historical-newark-licking-county-site-lease-not-up-until-2078-ohio-history-connection-octagon-earthworks-unesco-world-heritage-site

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Article from The Golf Business UK :
Golf course built on ‘America’s Stonehenge’ must surrender lease

https://www.thegolfbusiness.co.uk/2022/12/golf-course-built-on-americas-stonehenge-must-surrender-lease

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