[Joel_Stewart]

Ron's implied point is well-taken. 

Probably not extensive restoration/renovation work needed.  My understanding is both WW courses have decayed over the years -- which has kept me away. Always wondered why routing, of both PB & RO, were not more walker-friendly.   

The property is a mess, mainly because the owner hasn't been on property for 5 years and has run it into the ground.


It's never had a clubhouse, instead opting for a double wide trailer. There's never been accommodations despite plenty of land.


Water runs downhill from Rolling Oaks onto the Pine Barrens course causing flooding.


The equipment is 20 years old and they can't find enough help to maintain the courses.


The unique 360 degree range built 25 years ago is now too short and needs to be expanded.  The par 3 course gets virtually no play.


The rough lines, grassing, sandy waste area and bunkers have all deteriorated and need to be completely rebuilt. 


The irrigation and drainage systems all need to be replaced at a cost of $2-$4 million. The course needs at least $1 million in tree work.


I agree with Tom that Rolling Oaks is missing something???  I thought Pine Barrens could be the best course in Florida. There's land for a 3rd course but that's probably going to be turned into a real estate development.

[Tom_Doak]

Interesting.


For a group of people who consider it sacrilege to modify Golden Age courses, everyone is sure eager to take out the scalpel (or bulldozer) to something a little more recent.  Since WW was ranked in the top 100 for many years, it's not because of the quality of the course, but because of changing tastes. 


Will all of you be so eager to hack up the current favorites in 20 years when rugged bunkers are no longer in style and trees regain their popularity?

I don't think that the imperative to change the two courses would be as strong if they were had been built to be walkable.  Walkability is not just a changing taste, but one of the principal trademarks of the new ownership team, so that implies that changes will be necessary, and it's not solely about drawing renewed attention to the place.

[jeffwarne]

Ron's implied point is well-taken. 

Probably not extensive restoration/renovation work needed.  My understanding is both WW courses have decayed over the years -- which has kept me away. Always wondered why routing, of both PB & RO, were not more walker-friendly.   

The irrigation and drainage systems all need to be replaced at a cost of $2-$4 million. The course needs at least $1 million in tree work.

I get that maintenance has been deferred for years....and that a fancy irrigation salesman could find a way to sell $4 million worth on 36 large scale holes....(there's a chasm between "2" and "4" MILLION as well)


but I'm a little stunnned to hear $1 million(at least) "needs" to be spent in tree work...in the ruralburbs of Brooksville?
not denying tree work needs to be done.

[Kyle Harris]

Pine Barrens may be the *only* candidate in the world that qualifies for the *strictest defintion* of the word restoration.

[Steve Lapper]

I suspect the new ownerships' golf DNA will lead to a good number of positive changes.


The play to own this facility appears to be a very smart one. Florida is a rapidly growing state both for relocation and tourism traffic. It is most likely the single biggest state for new golf facility growth as well and although primarily focused on the East Coast today, land prices and development opportunity are far more reasonable on its West Coast. Proximity to the elaborate and highly accessible Tampa/St. Pete transportation infrastructure is highly attractive.

 Couple the above with what may best one of the most valuable golf-travel databases and voila....you have a highly opportunistic situation. Hats off to what should be a shrewd purchase of a tired asset that can, and likely will, be swiftly rejuvenated.

FWIW...I too strongly doubt the expected tree work would amount to $1M, the hard and softwoods down that way are valuable in and of themselves and could be farmed out to a local/regional lumber company for a fraction of the price that a tree-service firm might charge.

[Bryan Izatt]

I haven't been for a couple of years because of Covid, but they were doing tree work in the years before that. 


So, the main issue with PB is the green to tee walks through the central nexus of 1-2, 6-7, 11-12, and 17-18?  How do you fix that without rerouting the whole course?

[Bryan Izatt]

I played golf with Ryan that day. We only played Pine Barrens and his critiques of the golf course are similar to mine.


The routing is just plain bad.


Why is the routing bad?  Anything other than the sometimes lengthy green to tee distances befitting a cart ball course?


The greens are often divorced from anything going on from the tee (the 6th hole is among the more egregious examples).


Could you expand on what you mean?  For the 6th, a par 5 heading west that's a three shot hole for most of us, what's going on from the tee is a straight away drive across a shallow valley and up to a small ridge in the fairway with waste area left and slope off to the trees on the right.  The second is also a straight away shot down a gentle slope to a low area in front of the green.  The green is small and circular and displaced a bit to the right.  I suppose if you're a long skilled player you could hug the waste area on the left and try and hit a high cut to the green.  I don't understand how you would want to "marry" what going on at the tee with the green.  How is the hole set up "divorced".  Granted there isn't a whole lot of strategy here, but  I don't get the divorced comment.   


The much spoke of Strategy of the 4th hole lays down if you can carry a tee shot 250 yards. A hole where the best play is 250 down the middle is hardly strategic. The more strategic Par 5 is the 14th… by far.


I guess if you're a long skilled player then there's one obvious way to play the 4th - hit it over the quarry to the right fairway and then hoist it over the next quarry area to the green.  For those of us less log and less skilled there are other options that may be safer and more doable.  Where to place the 2nd shot if you don't go for the green provides a number of options.  I agree the 14th is a better hole but there really isn't a whole lot more strategy.  Keep it long and right off the tee and you have a relatively open second shot.  Drive left and you're pretty much forced to hit it up to the higher ground on the right.


PB has the best Par 3 (10), Par 4 (8th), and Par 5 (14) on the property yet fails to remain cohesive enough to capitalize on that.


Could you give more insight on the "cohesion" that is lacking between the good holes that you mention.  What would you have done that would have made it better.


Pine Barrens does not pass the “walk in the park” test. Rolling Oaks does.  I'm not sure what your walk in the park test entails, but I've always enjoyed the walk for the parts I've walked, given it's primarily a cart ball course.  I always get a good feeling in the quiet pine forest environment.  Rolling Oak is certainly a harder walk, but then I don't understand your definition of a walk in the park.  Certainly the Spanish moss draped oaks are attractive for those of us from northern climes.  The back nine of Rolling Oaks is as good of a routing that can exist on a golf course. I’ll often play Rolling Oaks back to back on visits. I’ll never play Pine Barrens twice in a row.  Back in the day when I played twice a day I did PB twice to the exclusion of RO.  Different tastes I guess.  C'est la vie.

[Tim Gavrich]

I walked both Pine Barrens and Rolling Oaks when I visited WW in November 2018. If you're looking for poster-children for unwalkable golf in Florida, there are hundreds of better examples, IMO.


The routing issue with PB, at least for me, mainly revolves around the consecutive long walks to finish: from 16 green to 17 tee, then from 17 green to 18 tee. Some flow does materialize in the walk before that point, but the finish is awkward.

[Tom_Doak]

I walked both Pine Barrens and Rolling Oaks when I visited WW in November 2018. If you're looking for poster-children for unwalkable golf in Florida, there are hundreds of better examples, IMO.


The routing issue with PB, at least for me, mainly revolves around the consecutive long walks to finish: from 16 green to 17 tee, then from 17 green to 18 tee. Some flow does materialize in the walk before that point, but the finish is awkward.

Pine Barrens has a LOT of 100- to 150-yard walks because of that Gordian knot crossover from 1-2, 11-12, and 6-7, and really just because they weren't trying to get the tees close to the greens at all.  It could be routed much better.  But to do that, you'll have to blow up a lot of things, taking away from its legacy as one of Fazio's best designs.

[Joe Bausch]

I’ve played WW on buddy trips many times and it has always been a fave.


A tune-up would be welcome and I think a ginormous success.


My last visit was in March 2018.


Photo albums:


http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/WWPineBarrens/index.html

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/WWRollingOaks/index.html

[John Foley]

Like Joe I've played it many times. While never a lets get there place it's solid. Could it be better, absolutely!!!


I remember hearing about it from a FL friend in around 90-91. Think about that. How many multi-course developments that draw people to it have been built since then? Bandon, Sand Valley, Streamsong, Whistling Straits. Each of them are much much better than WW today. It's got good bones, they could both be better.


In the end fast forward 4 years, were all going to see what they've done but are we going there rather than the previous list? It's a high bar to hit.

[Kalen Braley]

Looking at Google Earth, is the Dunes Club just west of it still open?  Looks like it could be a sister course to the resort and perhaps  a better candidate for a redo?  Anyone played it?

[Kyle Harris]

Looking at Google Earth, is the Dunes Club just west of it still open?  Looks like it could be a sister course to the resort and perhaps  a better candidate for a redo?  Anyone played it?

Not open anymore and a real loss. Very good. Four different, all excellent, Par 3s.

[Daryl David]

Will all of you be so eager to hack up the current favorites in 20 years when rugged bunkers are no longer in style and trees regain their popularity?

Most of us will be dead, so it won’t matter. 

[Mike Hendren]

This thread suggests conditions and amenities are more important than most would let on.   WW is - or was a few years ago a darned good value and a solid group destination coupled with accommodations at The Chaz. The criticism of its "frumpiness" and walkability arguably serve as a litmus test for golf architecture snobs. 


I guess it's only a "great big world" if you belong to a tony private club somewhere.  Guess what:  the "great big world" is its biggest at the lower end of the Doak scale.  Some of you guys need to get out of the stream and swim in the ocean. 


Some of us are just "good old boys out making noise:"


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/ambush-whiskey-fiber


Mike
A Pretty Lousy Golfer

[Mike Feeney]

This thread suggests conditions and amenities are more important than most would let on.   WW is - or was a few years ago a darned good value and a solid group destination coupled with accommodations at The Chaz. The criticism of its "frumpiness" and walkability arguably serve as a litmus test for golf architecture snobs. 


I guess it's only a "great big world" if you belong to a tony private club somewhere.  Guess what:  the "great big world" is its biggest at the lower end of the Doak scale.  Some of you guys need to get out of the stream and swim in the ocean. 


Some of us are just "good old boys out making noise:"


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/ambush-whiskey-fiber


Mike
A Pretty Lousy Golfer

Whew, a lot to unpack in this rant.
Everything OK at home?

[Jerry Kluger]

The important thing about WW is that it is an inexpensive trip for winter golf somewhat like Myrtle Beach during other seasons. I agree that improved conditioning would be great and a nice clubhouse would be good but if it then approaches Streamsong prices it would be a shame to the guys who cannot afford Streamsong prices.

[Mike_Young]

This thread suggests conditions and amenities are more important than most would let on.   WW is - or was a few years ago a darned good value and a solid group destination coupled with accommodations at The Chaz. The criticism of its "frumpiness" and walkability arguably serve as a litmus test for golf architecture snobs. 


I guess it's only a "great big world" if you belong to a tony private club somewhere.  Guess what:  the "great big world" is its biggest at the lower end of the Doak scale.  Some of you guys need to get out of the stream and swim in the ocean. 


Some of us are just "good old boys out making noise:"


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/ambush-whiskey-fiber


Mike
A Pretty Lousy Golfer

Whew, a lot to unpack in this rant.
Everything OK at home?

Sounds like Michael H is spot on....what do you think he needs to unpack....the only issue I see with his comments is that most on here that talk of the "toney private clubs" could not get in...

[Ronald Montesano]

I didn't take Bogey Hendren as ranting at all. He is a barometer to remind us that there are many on this site who don't sniff out invitations to the elite of the elite, and that many of us should reassess what golf is. In fact, I've never known Bogey to rant on GCA. He states his case, in the manner that an efficient and successful barrister would do. A collection of his observations would serve us all well.

My friend just returned from WW, and indicated that this was not a banner week for the courses. Splotchy greens running at 1890 speeds.

[Bryan Izatt]

Well said Michael and Jerry - from someone who has never been on one of the private top tier US courses.


RoMo, that's sad to hear as I hope to be there next week.  Maybe they'll desplotch the greens by then.  I'm sure I'll enjoy the peace and milieu of standing on PB's 1st tee anyway.  And the greens on my home course were no great shakes before they got covered in snow.

[Mike_Young]

I didn't take Bogey Hendren as ranting at all. He is a barometer to remind us that there are many on this site who don't sniff out invitations to the elite of the elite, and that many of us should reassess what golf is. In fact, I've never known Bogey to rant on GCA. He states his case, in the manner that an efficient and successful barrister would do. A collection of his observations would serve us all well.

My friend just returned from WW, and indicated that this was not a banner week for the courses. Splotchy greens running at 1890 speeds.

Agree....except for the "barrister" part...

[Mike_Young]

Interesting.


For a group of people who consider it sacrilege to modify Golden Age courses, everyone is sure eager to take out the scalpel (or bulldozer) to something a little more recent.  Since WW was ranked in the top 100 for many years, it's not because of the quality of the course, but because of changing tastes. 


Will all of you be so eager to hack up the current favorites in 20 years when rugged bunkers are no longer in style and trees regain their popularity?

I don't think it will take 20 years...

[David Kelly]

I played WW a number of times in the first year or two after it opened  and back then, while the owners still had delusions of grandeur, the conditions were impeccable and as good as any public courses in Florida. PB, was also in the top 3 or 4 Fazio courses I've ever played.  I remember it being $100 for 36 holes with a guy grilling hamburgers and hot dogs at the turn.  Almost 30 years later I don't think the price has gone up by much, if at all.


10 years after opening I went out there with a friend and the greens were running at about a 5 on the stimp meter and the conditions were so bad that it was the closest I ever came to asking for my money back at a golf course.  In the short term after that I heard conditions had improved but then began going steadily downhill over the years. 

[Kyle Harris]

Bryan Izatt,

Let's be clear that I am a fan of both courses. Pine Barrens looks sexier and I think that distracts from the concept that it truly is the lesser of the two offerings at World Woods. It's a bit of a strange concept really because it is most certainly the course to play if you're going to play only one of them.

It wears thing after about the 4th round, though.

When you have null space in a routing - there better be a reason. I don't expect a walk along the Pacific a la Cypress Point 14-15-16 but there needs to be something other than "I had a quarry and couldn't do anything other than parallel holes through it, only two of which are really noteworthy."

Which explains the acre-plus null space you find between 1-2, 6-7, 11-12, and 17-18. Four times. Same flat boring spot.

And now to your question: what else can you do? The answer is probably nothing. And that is why the golf course simply isn't as good as the other. It's hamstrung by a few noteworthy holes and one too many transition holes that exist at the expense of cohesion.

The "walk in the park" simply isn't all that compelling.

The crescendo also peaks much too early at 15 and the outro is but a frustrating-to-hear whisper. Can you remember much of 18 other than it's exceptionally difficult? How about 17?

Do you remember 13?

Is there a point to the right side green on 12? Is the left side green playable with that carry over a "waste area" from which you get relief?

And that's where things have deteriorated. The golf course in it's previous iteration became unmaintainable by it's owner. So much so that you had to cease playing golf in order to make it through the round. Guess what? Compelling, sandy, golf costs money. Pine Barrens costs money. The more understated Rolling Oaks is what helps keep it affordable AND it's a superior routing.

I'll revisit the greens lack of strategy in a subsequent post.

[Kyle Harris]

So we must accept the premise that NO design can really defend against well-struck, high, long, accurate shots. In doing so, strategy becomes the application of the limit of our skill to the question posed by the golf course as an equal to/slightly less than equal alternative to the howitzer onslaught of a player playing at peak.

Pine Barrens, in my ways, appears to provide this alternate for the clever player. That is, until one gets to the putting surface.

#4: Is there really any better approach to this green than from the flat part of the fairway, in the middle of the corridor? Is the left accessible? Side hill lie to side hill green?


#6: There is a compelling move to the left here, especially on the second shot. Maybe the green could offer a bit of a run up and back stop to the player willing to trade a little distance for a better run-up shot? Nope. The camber of the green rejects anything from this left side.

#12: Pick a green. Both aren't terrible conducive to a particular play.

#13: Could be all world with that approach area. Instead it's just carry and carry.

#14: Okay, this one is good.

#15: All world driveable Par-4. But it's just a make/buy decision. Once you lay up, it doesn't really matter. Pick a yardage/duck... everyone's a winner.

#18: High. Straight. Maybe you can bounce youre third shot in.

Easy comparisons:

#4 Rolling Oaks: Outside the dogleg and the green angles DIRECTLY to the golfer. Try to cut the corner and you have a shorter shot to a smaller target.

#5 Rolling Oaks: Challenge the bunker left and have a clear view of the green in two. Play safe down the right and tack around the tree. The safe tee shot does offer an out down the right side if you can curve the ball. Compelling stuff...

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