[ed_getka]

Tom,
 What do people count at night to help them sleep? Its north of us.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Mike - Believe it or not, I think the five years is still their rule (I'll find out).  The Digest panel exempted the Bandon courses from the 5-year rule because on the day they opened, either could of passed for one day old or 100 years old.  There were no trees to grow in, no maturing required.  Basically, the Bandon courses in 5 years will look like they do today so GD decided to waive the rule. - JC

[David Wigler]

Dan,

I did not realize you were a GCA'er.  Congratulations on your work at Kingsley.  The fescue is phenominal and you really treat that course like your baby.  You should be very proud of what you have done there.  I hope I didn't yap your ear of so much over the nine holes we got together, that you decided to play all remaining rounds with GW'ers with ear muffs on.

[David Wigler]

Matt,

Sorry, I missed your question.  I think that Kingsley should probably be 1st in Michigan for modern courses (Ahead of Arcadia, but it is very close and I would not argue strongly if they were reversed) and possibly 4th overall behind Crystal Downs, Oakland Hills and Franklin Hills.  I would give it a slight edge over Pointe O' Woods but again would be hard pressed to defend that edge.

[THuckaby2]

JC - gotcha my friend.  You remain the best and most reliable source for this, but so many people keep getting it wrong... or at least making claims contra to what you state... that lil ole peon me just doesn't know what to believe.  

I had to figure TKC was ineligible for ranking... it is such a seemingly shocking oversight... but they are on our list of courses "nominated"... so again, me so confused!

Oh well, what the hell.  Patience and they will get their just due.

And to Ed. G. - got it.  Shhhhh!

TH

[Mike_Cirba]

I guess I'm more confused!   :-/

GD evidently "rated" Kingsley Club for it to have finished 22nd in the state.  Jonathan states that some rare courses get "passes" from the 5-year rule because of their natural maturity.  

So, the question I'd ask is this.  What if Kingsley, instead of finishing 22nd according to the polling of GD raters, instead finished 2rd, and with a total score that would place it within the Top 100 in the country?  And then, what if the 3rd best course in Michigan also placed in the Top 100.

If what I'm hearing is correct, the "Best in State" listing might hypothetically look like this;

1) Oakland Hills
2) Kingsley Club
3) Crystal Downs
4) ....etc.

while the "Greatest 100" would only include the 1st and 3rd.

Seems strange, but seems true.  

[THuckaby2]

We need JC to sort this out.  I am beyond confused and moving into clueless.  

TH

[Tom_Doak]

I do not believe there is any "waiting period" for a course to make DIGEST's top 100 anymore, as long as enough panelists have seen it.  (Well, actually I guess it's a year and a half; they won't list a course before it's been voted on for "Best New," which is why Friar's Head is not among the top 25 in NY.)

As for the state listings, GOLF DIGEST has never listed a course ineligible for the "100 Greatest" ahead of a course which made that list.  If a new course got higher numbers than a "top 100" course from the same state, they just listed it in the state rankings immediately after the top-100 courses.  So if you saw that, the chances were fair that the course had the votes to make the top 100.

But if there is even one older course in the state between a new course and those that made the top 100, then the new course doesn't have high enough votes, at least among those people who have voted so far.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Doak;

From what you're saying about the placement of a new course that has a high enough ranking (but not enough votes) for the Top 100 "just under" the Top 100 candidates in the "Best of State", then my guess is that Greg Norman's "Shark Tooth" in FLorida is a top 100 contender!

One thru five are all Top 100 courses, followed by Norman's.

Florida
1. Seminole G.C., N. Palm Bch. [1]*
2. TPC at Sawgrass (Stadium), Ponte Vedra Beach [2]*«
3. Jupiter Hills C. (Hills), Tequesta [4]*
4. Pine Tree G.C., Boynton B. [7]*
5. Black Diamond Ranch G.C. (Quarry), Lecanto [3]*
6. Shark's Tooth G.C., Lake Powell*

Might the "new" Atlantic City CC fall into the same category?

New Jersey
1. Pine Valley G.C. [1]*
2. Baltusrol G.C. (Lower), Springfield [2]*
3. Somerset Hills C.C., Bernardsville [3]*
4. Plainfield C.C. [4]*

First four all Top 100, and then;
5. Atlantic City C.C., Northfield *

[Tom_Doak]

Mike,

If you look more closely there are probably a dozen "contenders" identifiable by this method ... although it's more likely to work for a course in a large state (such as Florida or Michigan) than for one in a small state.

[THuckaby2]

Great stuff, guys.  But I remain a little slow out here in CA (hey, it is 7:06am), so would someone quantify this re TKC and Michigan?  What's the bottom line there?

Thanks.  

TH

[David Wigler]

Tom,

If that is correct, then my original premise in the other thread holds true and Kingsley finished somewhere around 700th in GD's rankings.

[THuckaby2]

OK... and if TKC did finish app. 700th, it would just plain have to be because very few GD raters saw it, and of those who did, too many were guys like the one who was pissed his car got dirty.

Patience... more right-thinking raters will come....  

TH

[Matt_Ward]

The bottom line on Kingsley is that the course got hosed on the "best private" by GD -- at the VERY, VERY minimum it should have beeen included within the top ten in that particular category.

In addition, how TKC finished 22nd in the Wolverine State is completely laughable and a testament to the wisdom of those entrusted with ratings.

I agree with David W and see TKC among the stat'e top five --I will admit, though, that my experience with the state is not as thorough as others but I've seen the many top ones often mentioned. TKC doesn't disappoint one iota -- I see TKC as one of my top 100 courses I've played in the States and it's one any lover of the game must incude on their "must play" list.

I'll say this again I believe the qualities you find at TKC are very close to the elite status that so many rightly ascribe to Sand Hills and Pac Dunes. Just my opinion. TKC doesn't have the fanfare just YET!

[Jonathan Cummings]

I just talked to Topsy Sideroff at GD who told me the Digest rating panel 5-year waiting requirement was recently changed to a 2-year waiting period.  This was first implemented for last month's published top100 list.  My apologies, for as TD points out, my above post is based on dated information.

JC

[Dan_Lucas]

Tom H.

I have tried to make contact with raters whenever time permits when they play Kingsley (or the other courses I've been at). I like to see my course through other perspectives and there is no better way than to talk to players.

Many raters I've met have been very representative of the people in this DG. They have a great respect for the traditions of the game and are actively pusuing some knowledge of Architecture.They kneel at the Shrine of St. Andrews and Our Lady of Pine Valley, Cypress Point, NGLA, and Merion. On the other hand, there are others who hold courses that are Augusta green (heavy on the flowers please), have lots of beautiful trees, and have soft greens that will hold whatever shot you hit into them in highest esteem.

I've had them tell me "My 7 iron landed 10 feet in front of the pin and rolled all the way over the green. You are just not rewarded for hitting good shots out here." To which I would like to reply "If it rolled over the back, it wasn't a good shot. This course was not designed to fly the ball to the pin."

Most I have met have been good people who cared about what they are doing and trying to do it right. Others are using their position to travel and play free golf. That's the way it is.

Mike C.

Topsy was called as soon as that rater left the course, which was the first year we got rated and ended up ineligible. She was told the whole story. She apologised for him (there was even more to the story). Then she sent him back to rate the course again last year.

Joe H.

I wish I had the weather control you do. If I remember right it was about 45 degrees when we played your place last fall.

Dave W.

It was a real pleasure to join you for the last nine. I really enjoyed the conversation. That Joey Kocur/ Bill L. story is one I'll remember for a long time. Next time I hope my game matches the quality of the company.

[Joe Hancock]

Dan,

Ah, yes...a warm 45 degrees though! The way I see it, we should find a way to split the temprature difference....that would be ideal!

By the way, I was honored to have your dust on my boat trailer...I also stole a divot from the fabulous #3/ #5 tee complex to replant on my course to see if the concept was contagious!

On a serious note, I didn't miss any flowers...the waves of wispy brown fescues are all the flora needed at you're place.

I would love to hear some more of the side comments you've heard from raters...that is if there is anything of interest here.

Thanks, and have a great season!

Joe

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