News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Why is Lawsonia Links better than Arcadia South?
« on: September 07, 2021, 11:21:22 PM »
I mean, it is, right?
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Lawsonia Links better than Arcadia South?
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2021, 11:24:50 PM »
No way. Not this late with that view.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Lawsonia Links better than Arcadia South?
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2021, 08:15:03 AM »
Give it some time to discover whether it’s puppy love, or the real thing….was it your first date?
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Lawsonia Links better than Arcadia South?
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2021, 09:16:38 AM »
Lawsonia is $75.00 and has about the most chill vibe about it as any course Ive ever played.
Beers are $2.50 there and hot dogs are $3.00.


It is an orginal Langford/Moreau course from the 1930's while AB South is a modern gimic replica course, albeit (from what I have heard) very well done.


Reports I keep hearing about ABS say it's a 5+ hour round and $160+ (still not bad $ I guess.)


I'll take Lawsonia in the am and then an easy 75 minute drive from there to Sand Valley for a PM round.


We played Lawsonia last in mid-June, 2020 on a Sunday am at 9:30. Played in 3:45 and it was all locals there.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Lawsonia Links better than Arcadia South?
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2021, 09:49:03 AM »
Lawsonia is all locals for a reason. I found no redeeming qualities in the course or amenities worthy of a road trip to get there. If Lawsonia could switch sister courses with ABS I'm sure I would feel differently.


I've been told that Lawsonia no longer pushes their religious views on visitors so that is a good thing.





John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Lawsonia Links better than Arcadia South?
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2021, 10:01:24 AM »
Lawsonia Links is $120 to play this weekend. I do pray to my God that they don't comp raters.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Why is Lawsonia Links better than Arcadia South?
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2021, 10:18:37 AM »
Give it some time to discover whether it’s puppy love, or the real thing….was it your first date?


Note that I'm just asking a question because I'm interested in hearing thoughtful answers. It's not rhetorical, and I'm not making some sort of declaration by asking.


Ian, Lawsonia is my favorite place in the world of golf for reasons like the ones you cite. I love good cheap beer. It's also one of my favorite courses, and I'm interested in the architectural reasons for its superiority more than a discussion of its concessions. If we're going the latter route, I should mention that the cherry bbq chips I got at Arcadia South were the best chips I've ever tasted.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Lawsonia Links better than Arcadia South?
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2021, 10:58:57 AM »
Lawsonia is all locals for a reason. I found no redeeming qualities in the course or amenities worthy of a road trip to get there. If Lawsonia could switch sister courses with ABS I'm sure I would feel differently.


I've been told that Lawsonia no longer pushes their religious views on visitors so that is a good thing.


Horses for courses I guess.
But a comment like the one above kinda disqualifies you from being taken seriously on most GCA matters... ;D


A guy I was with who has a VERY high golf IQ (and belongs to 4 "top 100" courses) stated that if Lawsonia was on Long Island  (with same topography) and had a $2M+ maintenence budget, it would be top 50 in the world.


Maintenance budget there is around $600K we heard.


But, it does NOT have bridges under which trolls may lurk or reside...;-)


Jason, I hear you. I played ABN but not ABS. Was one and done for me but I would do ABS if in the area again and had a day to kill...;-)

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Lawsonia Links better than Arcadia South?
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2021, 11:05:11 AM »
No one cares about how great a course would be if it were at a different location. I am a member and own a home on an original L&M course. I am fully aware of their design philosophy and find it repetitive and boring. I think the market for their work has given an accurate indication of the quality. Reminds me of the Foulis brothers.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Why is Lawsonia Links better than Arcadia South?
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2021, 11:23:57 AM »
Give it some time to discover whether it’s puppy love, or the real thing….was it your first date?
I think first dates are different these days, Joe -- whether with people or with golf courses. If we discounted puppy love and demanded the real thing, maybe all the Top 100 lists would be turned upside down, or at least all mixed up!
« Last Edit: September 08, 2021, 11:27:45 AM by Peter Pallotta »

Mike Treitler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Lawsonia Links better than Arcadia South?
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2021, 11:28:44 AM »
I just don't understand how somebody can play Lawsonia Links and say it has no redeeming qualities.


I personally think the two hole combo of #6 and #7 is one of the best in the world and I don't think I've played a golf course that has a better set of green complexes.


To each his own but perhaps you caught it on a bad day?   When it plays fast and firm it's one of the most fun courses to play. 


Every hole "feels" like a birdie hole yet it protects par extremely well due to the creativity of the greens. 


There is great variety, its beautiful, its fun.  I just don't understand having such extreme criticism for it.


For the money it may be the best course in the midwest and money aside its well deserving of its praise and place in the top 100 IMO.


Back to the original post... I really enjoyed Arcadia South and think it is quite similar to Lawsonia.  It's just not as memorable to me and doesn't have the "all world" holes like Lawsonia. (6,7,13 on Lawsonia)

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Lawsonia Links better than Arcadia South?
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2021, 11:39:22 AM »
I mean, it is, right?


Yes it is. I liked AS better than I thought I would but it would be at least 7-3 LL for me, luckily its not that far out of the way for me on my way to Madison or Chicago.
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Lawsonia Links better than Arcadia South?
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2021, 11:50:57 AM »
Cheap hyped up GCA courses that I have played. Rustic, Wild Horse and Lawsonia. Lawsonia is the most expensive. Can't wait to see Rustic again.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Why is Lawsonia Links better than Arcadia South?
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2021, 02:21:30 PM »
Back to the original post... I really enjoyed Arcadia South and think it is quite similar to Lawsonia.  It's just not as memorable to me and doesn't have the "all world" holes like Lawsonia. (6,7,13 on Lawsonia)


This point resonates to me, but I do wonder if we're going to consider holes at South to be All World sooner or later. 9 is tremendous, for one. I think there are other contenders.


It's hard for me to be definitive about them because the course just has so much going on. The courses have similar land, aesthetics, and character in some ways, but the challenges at Lawsonia feel a little more conventional to me. It doesn't take too many plays or too much thought to generally understand the central challenge of 6, 7, 10, and 13 at Lawsonia, all of which I consider truly exceptional holes. But less complex to take in than, say, 2, 3, 4, 6, 9, 10, 15, 17, and 18 at the South, all of which seem potentially pretty exceptional to me after a single play.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Lawsonia Links better than Arcadia South?
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2021, 05:10:53 PM »
There are only a handful of courses I finish and can’t wait to get back to the first tee again.


Lawsonia is certainly one of those courses.


Ken

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Lawsonia Links better than Arcadia South?
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2021, 06:52:05 PM »

AB South is a modern gimic replica course, albeit (from what I have heard) very well done.



Kind of like Old Mac and the new Lido course? 

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Why is Lawsonia Links better than Arcadia South?
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2021, 07:26:50 PM »

AB South is a modern gimic replica course, albeit (from what I have heard) very well done.



Kind of like Old Mac and the new Lido course?


Right?


Also, whereas Old Mac and the Lido really are modern replica courses, Arcadia South has a style that mirrors CGC's shaping but a totally original set of holes. If it's a modern gimmick replica course because it looks sorta like one other course, then I think that means every course is a modern gimmick replica. I mean, Pac Dunes is a total County Down knockoff and even Lawsonia is just a lesser NGLA without the ocean.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Lawsonia Links better than Arcadia South?
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2021, 08:24:30 PM »
Why does one have to be better than the other? What is the purpose of this thread?
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Why is Lawsonia Links better than Arcadia South?
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2021, 09:32:10 PM »
Ron, as a guy who's played quite a lot of heralded public courses around the Midwest, it's just really hard to play Arcadia South and not see shades of Lawsonia. They present very similarly in terms of shaping, character of property, and strategic challenge.


I'm not really one to get hung up in "Which course is better?" discussions. I know which of the two I prefer, and recognize that my opinion may change for any reason at any time. But I think they're interesting to discuss together. One is well known. The other is new and, I think, pretty overlooked relative to its quality. And despite the similarities, they're also markedly different. I hoped the topic would stimulate some discussion on that front and shine a light on some of the preferences that inform different takes.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Lawsonia Links better than Arcadia South?
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2021, 03:25:20 PM »

To each his own but perhaps you caught it on a bad day?



Seems like every day is a bad day for JK. A stronger source of negativity is unbeknownst to me. :'(


Cheers

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Why is Lawsonia Links better than Arcadia South?
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2021, 10:22:42 PM »
If you wanted to make the case for Arcadia, you’d say it’s more challenging and more complex and in prime condition.


For Lawsonia, you’d say the topography is much more dramatic and it’s got an awesome set of greens.


John, I don’t know why but it sounds like you do not remember Lawsonia’s greens very well.  They are much more varied than the Rayner templates, and there are a few (5, 6, 12) that belong in a sculpture museum.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Why is Lawsonia Links better than Arcadia South?
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2021, 12:36:05 AM »
If you wanted to make the case for Arcadia, you’d say it’s more challenging and more complex and in prime condition.


Yes! It's a lot to take in. And maybe it's a little too much in spots. In hindsight, I'd have been a lot more selective about the club I chose off the tee and played for position more often. It's almost a "target links" with landing areas defined by bunkers on practically every par 4/5. But it's really cool to think how the ideal position would change with different pins, and it's augmented by the way the squared off putting surfaces create so many different sharply angled pin positions that, in turn, influence the proper target from the tee. It's a remarkably cerebral chess match and the course's unrelenting firmness really takes it up another notch on that front.

Quote
For Lawsonia, you’d say the topography is much more dramatic and it’s got an awesome set of greens.


So, in fairness, I think Arcadia South has an awesome set of greens all its own. But I do think Lawsonia has the better set, because of all the microcontours. I keep thinking about the first holes. It seems so obvious that Arcadia South has the better opener, because it's an awesome hole and Lawsonia has that awkwardly undefined tee shot. And the green at Arcadia South is incredible - huge with enormous slopes. But Lawsonia's is equally interesting on the approach with the way that it feeds balls to the left, but so much harder to putt once you're on it because even though it's smaller and doesn't have the same boldness of shaping (within the surface itself...), it's also full of microundulations that make even 3 footers really tough.


I do think the topography of the courses is very similar though. I'll grant that Lawsonia has a little bit more drama, but I wouldn't call it "much more." Although certain transcendent holes at Lawsonia like 6 and 13 are really bolstered by their topography and I'm not sure Arcadia South has anything that quite matches them. Overall, though, I found the topography of the courses really similar.

Quote
John, I don’t know why but it sounds like you do not remember Lawsonia’s greens very well.  They are much more varied than the Rayner templates, and there are a few (5, 6, 12) that belong in a sculpture museum.


Agreed again here. But we should put respect on greens like 2 and 9 at Arcadia South too. There are others that I think might be world-class contenders. At risk of contradicting The Fried Egg, I also thought 17 was pretty exceptional.


But there's a consistent excellence to the greens at Lawsonia that Arcadia South might not quite match (?). It's sorta funny - Lawsonia is so much more straightforward tee-to-green, and that's exactly what makes it such a fabulous example of strategic architecture. The short answer to the question "How do I play Lawsonia strategically?" is "put your ball near the hazards, and you'll enjoy better angles into the greens." Whereas the strategy at Arcadia South will vary daily depending on pin position and wind and tees you're playing and it's just a lot more complicated tee-to-green. But once you're on the green, the surfaces at South are challenging but usually a little more straightforward. You might have a 150 ft putt, but it's unlikely you'll be reading more that one or two primary slopes while a 20 footer at Lawsonia might change direction 3+ times as it traverses a primary ridge along with a couple secondary ones.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Lawsonia Links better than Arcadia South?
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2021, 09:57:55 AM »
If you wanted to make the case for Arcadia, you’d say it’s more challenging and more complex and in prime condition.


For Lawsonia, you’d say the topography is much more dramatic and it’s got an awesome set of greens.


John, I don’t know why but it sounds like you do not remember Lawsonia’s greens very well.  They are much more varied than the Rayner templates, and there are a few (5, 6, 12) that belong in a sculpture museum.


On any course I only remember what I felt. What I saw comes up blank.


Can’t believe I’ve been spelling Rayner wrong all these years. Thanks!!!

Bret Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Lawsonia Links better than Arcadia South?
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2021, 10:07:34 AM »
Len Rayner was a golf architect, but he didn’t build that many templates, at least not famous ones. Windham Country Club in the Catskills has 9 holes by Rayner, but I don’t remember any templates.  He did quite a bit of work in upstate New York.  Wolfert’s Roost is another Len Rayner design.  What’s interesting about Wolfert’s Roost is that Charles Banks actually bid on the Wolfert’s Roost job, but lost the bid to Len Rayner.

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Lawsonia Links better than Arcadia South?
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2021, 11:11:08 PM »
Why does one have to be better than the other? What is the purpose of this thread?
exactly
how stupid
folks just like to be unhappy in the name of "study"
rank the Bandon courses, and why? LOL
as if it matters to someone who plays golf
life is good, so much golf so little time
« Last Edit: September 12, 2021, 07:49:18 AM by William_G »
It's all about the golf!

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back