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Sean_A

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Re: Jaunty JCB G&CC: 1-15
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2021, 05:26:50 PM »


Perhaps the highlight hole, the short, drop shot 17th plays to an island green. 
...... Like most of the greens, this one is also compelling. There are sort of four quadrants set on a slope from rear left to front right. I can imagine most hole locations will be challenging.


An homage to Braid?  He did this a few times, there's an old thread somewhere.

Interesting. I haven't seen a Braid green like the 17th.

It's a simple thing, but tilting the green toward the tee I think makes drop shot par 3s more attractive. Possibly the bunkers fit better and thus look more attractive. Its certainly a more welcoming look.

Ciao

Maybe its just the way they are described but you (and Robin)  have played to (uphill) greens with 4 sections.

I did poorly describe the green. It is four quadrants. The three right quadrants combined are about the size of left quadrant.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

Robin_Hiseman

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Re: Jaunty JCB G&CC
« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2021, 05:04:31 AM »
My sincere thanks to Sean for putting together this photo tour. It's an honour to get an official Arble review and a star!


Let me explain the access issue, because I do get asked about it quite often. I don't have membership or playing privileges at JCB. If I want to play I have to request access for myself and anyone I want to take along. I have to use this very sparingly and they have been very good at allowing me to take guests every once in a while.


Sean has always been very generous in inviting me down to Burnham on a regular basis, so when I did some 'pro bono' work for JCB earlier this year I was granted a fourball in return. Sean was always going to be the first person I asked along. I'd love to take you all there, but I can't. I hope you can find a way, like Duncan Cheslett did, if you are curious to see it for yourself. As and when I do get the chance to take some other folks on, then I shall be considering the GCA crowd for sure.



2022: Al Mouj; Cleeve Hill, Painswick, Minch Old, Weybrook Park, The Astbury, Silloth, Royal Balfron, Strathendrick, Archerfield (Fidra), Roxburghe, Stoneham, Woburn (Marquess), JCB, Pyrford, Hayling, Clandon, Wentworth (East), Ashbourne, East Sussex National (West)

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Jaunty JCB G&CC
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2021, 06:38:08 PM »
Sometimes your wishes do come true and so a big thanks to JR and ID. Even 24 hrs torrential rain (which only stopped as we reached the turn) couldnít kill the fun.
 
Even the full name, JCB Golf and Country Club, is not your typical of the GB&I experience. It has the smallest Car Park Iíve ever seen at a GC and the changing room is positively minute, a few padded bench seats and complimentary lockers,  but with plentiful showers etc. The common area are comparatively  spacious and the service is efficient but never overbearing.   I was really surprised that a world beating firm having built this right by their HQ did so little to promote their brand Ė to the point where I was a tad disappointed not to learn more. Warm up facilities are nearer at hand than anywhere else I can think of.  Everything was ďjust soĒ. Its what I want from somewhere ďexclusiveĒ, I want to feel comfortable.
 
As the first is a hundred yards away it is readily apparent this is a cartball course. However I had never previously appreciated the relief from the rain they provide, so I wonít moan too much.
 
Without going into detail Iíll just say I loved every hole. Thereís lots of visual distractions some holes play easier than they look with large landing areas and others more difficult e.g as we are tempted by the thought of taking on the doglegs. Loved the use of centreline bunkers. The  greens are very large and have some surprisingly severe definition of discrete areas within them e.g. 17 and 18.  Really a great set of greens that define the course, without any feeling of repetition or the dreaded scalloped edge construction. Some of the areas in front of greens have to be seen to be believed and  the run off areas surprised and delighted me. Chipping off short grass gives a chance to recover (or make a fool of oneself). The colour of the sand seemed just right. The whole flowed seamlessly, offering a series of interesting challenges.
 
The 11th seemed almost like an homage to the 10th at the Belfry?(thatís meant as a compliment)
 
Negatives?  Still not 100% convinced that the style of bunker edging is perfectly suited to inland Britain.  Whilst the before photo's in the clubhouse show what a great job has been done creating "naturally undulating" fairways, in one or two places the mounding in the rough is a little obvious - including either side of the  drive in.  Aesthetics aside, the only criticism I'd offer of playability is that the 18th is unremittingly difficult from drive to green. Could not the left hand fairway bunker in front of the green,  be filled in and a flat area be created allowing The Rabbit a chance to safely negotiate a path to get on in 3? I probably would still have got myself in trouble, but there was no choice but to try and play off pretty severely sloping lies. On the whole the course coped really well with the deluge but our group did lose 2 balls Ė presumably plugged in the rough.
 
But back in the clubhouse thatís not what I was thinking of.  A warm glow banishing the cold of the day. The Renaissance Club is the only new that I've seen can compare to this, and that has much better land.

Thanks Robin. A very fine job, well done.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2021, 07:02:04 PM by Tony_Muldoon »
on 29th May I am riding 100 Miles to help raise funds for Dementia Research. All donations are welcome.
https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/ridelondon-tonymuldoon

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Jaunty JCB G&CC
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2021, 03:52:35 AM »
Tony,


I greatly enjoyed our visit to JCB yesterday and concur with your thoughts. A second play confirms the quality that Robin has brought  to such unpromising land.


I donít think the 18th is unreasonably difficult, though. Itís a long uphill dogleg par 4 which few will be able to reach in two. As a golfer of modest length but reasonable accuracy I am accustomed to playing long par 4s as three shotters and the 18th is fairly straightforward if approached with that mindset.


The low road offers a decent lay up area short of the bunkers either side. My well judged 9iron from there left me with a 6ft uphill putt for par.


I think itís a great hole, which punishes the greedy and less than perfectly accurate but offers a safe bogey for the steady strategic player.


If only Iíd made the putt! 🤣
« Last Edit: November 02, 2021, 06:44:45 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Robin_Hiseman

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Re: Jaunty JCB G&CC
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2021, 10:20:20 AM »
Please don't say you were there on Sunday? What rotten luck with the weather.


Tony: Delighted that you got there and had an enjoyable time. It's obviously a bit late in the season to see it at its best, but hopefully it was still in decent shape for you.


On 18, are you talking about the large central bunker or the one to the left? I did delete a bunker on the approach to 13, but left the shaping of the swale in place. You can see what remains on Sean's photo. 18 would be the same sort of thing, but that bunker is perhaps the most frequented on the course and I think is fitting for the final hole. It is a tough hole for the handicap golfer, but Duncan seems to have worked out that the way to take the stress out of it is to play it as a Par 5 and take the nett par the SI will give you.


The clubhouse is supposed to be much closer to the 1st tee and was planned to be located around the ruins of Woodseat Hall. Maybe one day it will happen, but the Academy clubhouse is a comfortable base for the time being. None of us involved imagined that a view of the driving range was what we were aiming to give you before and after golf, but it sure works for tempting you to have a warm up beforehand, which given the 1st tee shot, is no bad thing.


I hope you will see it in the summer next time.


Cheers
Robin
2022: Al Mouj; Cleeve Hill, Painswick, Minch Old, Weybrook Park, The Astbury, Silloth, Royal Balfron, Strathendrick, Archerfield (Fidra), Roxburghe, Stoneham, Woburn (Marquess), JCB, Pyrford, Hayling, Clandon, Wentworth (East), Ashbourne, East Sussex National (West)

James Reader

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Re: Jaunty JCB G&CC
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2021, 11:43:44 AM »
We were actually there on Monday Robin.  It was pretty grim for the first 10 holes but brightened up after that.  I thought the course stood up really well considering all the rain itíd had.  The greens were still in really good shape and, apart from a very small number of low spots, the fairways were also remarkably dry.  Going a few yards into the rough (as Iím afraid I did on a few occasions) showed just what a great job youíve done with the drainage.


I think I probably triggered the debate about the 18th as, stood on the tee and having seen it 5 or 6 times before, I said that I thought it was the most difficult par 4 Iíd ever played and i stand by that.  Iím not saying thatís a bad thing; I actually think itís a very, very good hole.  The bunker Tony is talking about is the one on the left of the fairway.  For the vast majority playing it as a par 5 it does force the lay up down that side to be much further from the green than one would like.  Iíve been guilty every time of trying to get as close to the green as I can (itís a par 4 after all, the voice in my head says) rather than taking my medicine.  In that case, it becomes very easy to take 6! Duncan was much more sensible.


The more I play the course, the more impressed I am by the greens and the run-offs around them (and I really liked them the first time!).  They are in a completely different class to any other Ďmoderní course that Iíve seen.

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Jaunty JCB G&CC
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2021, 04:29:45 PM »
I think the eighteenth is an epic hole, one of the best long par fours I've ever seen. The only problem with it is the knowledge that when the pros get there, the epic hole will be a drive and a nine iron. But that's not Rob's fault.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Jaunty JCB G&CC
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2021, 04:36:45 PM »
18th Hole2 by Duncan Cheslett, on Flickr

Most players seem compelled to take on the bunkers visible from the tee on the 18th. It requires an uphill shot of 250 yards to clear them from the yellow tees. The more direct shot over the trees is simply not possible for the vast majority of golfers.


As you can see though, the more conservative 200 yard drive laying up short of the bunkers leaves a similar distance to the green, and one that has the benefit of not following a line directly over a chain of bunkers.


3 wood, 6 iron, wedge.


Old man's golf has a lot to recommend it!



Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Jaunty JCB G&CC
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2021, 06:29:40 PM »
I was channeling my inner Frasier Crane and needed something to criticise something just to show ...what a clever chap I am. But just like Frasier hubris often follows.


Driving into the wind I finished just short of the centreline bunker.  I was faced with one of the most difficult lies I've ever encountered. Ball 12" above my feet and on a severely downhill slope! I laid up but chose the 'high' rd(sic).  This left an ideal distance in but with the ball 18" above my feet. Just catching this a little fat, left an impossible up and down.


I really didn't fancy the the look of the left hand 'lower' route. A harder shot off that lie and  it looked downhill all the way to the bunker, with the best you could hope for was a blind approach. Fooled once again apparently.


Tutto nel mondo Ť burla ... Tutti gabbati!...Ma ride ben chi ride La risata  / "Everything in the world is a jest ... but he laughs well who laughs the final laugh".  You should be smiling Robin.
on 29th May I am riding 100 Miles to help raise funds for Dementia Research. All donations are welcome.
https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/ridelondon-tonymuldoon

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Jaunty JCB G&CC
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2021, 12:21:40 AM »
Tony,


The pitch from 100 yards out on the lower left hand route may be semi blind, but it is up the slope of the green.


From the right hand fairway the viciously tilted green is canted across and away from you.


Much like at the 3rd at Cavendish the low road offers the best chance of getting a short approach close.


This is not a green you want to be trying to hit from 200 yards out. Not only is it fiendishly protected by sand all the way, keeping the ball within 2 putt territory even if you make it is in the lap of the gods.


Iím going to stick to dinking it up the middle of the low roadÖ 😎
« Last Edit: November 04, 2021, 12:32:11 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Sean_A

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Re: Jaunty JCB G&CC
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2021, 02:44:35 AM »
We played the forward tee on 18. The hole was more right side and I approached from the right with no bunker to carry as the hole was on the right side. It looked to be much better to approach from right with our hole location. Could see the entire flag. The putt from the right was fine. However, if I played from the island tee I would probably stay left. Its likely not worth trying to get right on the drive or second to set up the short approach if the hole is on the right. I would need to see the hole again to be sure though.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

David Jones

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Re: Jaunty JCB G&CC
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2021, 03:46:39 AM »
Here are a couple of pictures from the drone that may or may not help! I don't think that too many of the average golfers playing JCB will be able to get over the bunkers successfully and as James says it plays for the vast majority as a par 5.


The view from the tee. Many will end up right of the bunkers and from there it's definitely a par 5.



The layup short and left of the next set of bunker as Duncan suggests means you are not really worried about the sand with your second. You should try and get it as close as possible to them though or face a long third.





Here's one from a little closer to the green. As always, the drone flattens things but if you have played 'The Cheslett Line' you have a semi blind uphill shot and a horrible bunker short to deal with. But I think I agree with Duncan, it's the sensible way to keep your score down to finish your round.





« Last Edit: November 04, 2021, 03:50:44 AM by David Jones »

Robin_Hiseman

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Re: Jaunty JCB G&CC
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2021, 05:49:11 AM »
David


Many thanks for chipping in with the drone pics. You've saved me from trawling through my archive for vastly inferior photos.


For what it is worth, I will plan my route to the green based on whether the hole is cut to the left or right of the lion's mouth bunker. We give you a preview of the hole location as you walk from Green 16 to Tee 17. If it's to the right, I like to get up to the high road with my second shot and if its to the left I'll stay low. This is if i'm playing it as a 3-shotter, which I am unless i've hit a career draw around the corner.


The bunker that Duncan lays up short of is the 'Merion' bunker, in honour of the bunker to the left side of their 18th in that famous Hogan photo. The incline struck me as being very similar.


Tony got snagged on the hillside that gets me quite often too. For a long time I asked them to mow the fairway up to the central bunkers , as it was thick semi-rough for the first few years. With the improved fairway drainage they did it this year.


Sean and I played from the forward tees earlier this year, and from there it is a very sporty 346-yard Par 4. The second string of central bunkers equally works as the strategic hazard from that tee, as well as a potent one on the long second shot. The third bunker up the chain is actually a mistake. There was a small island of semi-rough on the grading plan, which our shaper Bob Harrington mistook for a bunker. When I saw it I thought it looked good, so we kept 'Bob's bunker'.


Lots of space was left to the right of the green for tournament grandstands and hospitality pavilions, if they are ever needed. The white house is where course manager Euan Grant used to live. It's been converted into a luxurious pair of apartments for JCB guests.


I'd like to trim off the end of that hedgerow which pokes out into the line of sight from the tee and soften the angle of the steep bank that you drive over, but the main power cable for the JCB factory runs under the fairway there and we definitely don't want to snag that!
2022: Al Mouj; Cleeve Hill, Painswick, Minch Old, Weybrook Park, The Astbury, Silloth, Royal Balfron, Strathendrick, Archerfield (Fidra), Roxburghe, Stoneham, Woburn (Marquess), JCB, Pyrford, Hayling, Clandon, Wentworth (East), Ashbourne, East Sussex National (West)

Niall C

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Re: Jaunty JCB G&CC
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2021, 05:55:43 AM »
I think the eighteenth is an epic hole, one of the best long par fours I've ever seen. The only problem with it is the knowledge that when the pros get there, the epic hole will be a drive and a nine iron. But that's not Rob's fault.

Yes it is. He could have made 200 yards longer. What was the man thinking ?!  ;)

Niall

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Jaunty JCB G&CC
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2021, 06:52:40 AM »
I think the eighteenth is an epic hole, one of the best long par fours I've ever seen. The only problem with it is the knowledge that when the pros get there, the epic hole will be a drive and a nine iron. But that's not Rob's fault.

Yes it is. He could have made 200 yards longer. What was the man thinking ?!  ;)

Niall


He'd have had to extend the island where the tee is by quite a lot to do that...
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Robin_Hiseman

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Re: Jaunty JCB G&CC
« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2021, 07:08:01 AM »
I think the eighteenth is an epic hole, one of the best long par fours I've ever seen. The only problem with it is the knowledge that when the pros get there, the epic hole will be a drive and a nine iron. But that's not Rob's fault.

Yes it is. He could have made 200 yards longer. What was the man thinking ?!  ;)

Niall

He'd have had to extend the island where the tee is by quite a lot to do that...


I've investigated it, but it would spoil the look of the 17th hole to have the 18th tee in the background.
2022: Al Mouj; Cleeve Hill, Painswick, Minch Old, Weybrook Park, The Astbury, Silloth, Royal Balfron, Strathendrick, Archerfield (Fidra), Roxburghe, Stoneham, Woburn (Marquess), JCB, Pyrford, Hayling, Clandon, Wentworth (East), Ashbourne, East Sussex National (West)

Ben Stephens

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Re: Jaunty JCB G&CC
« Reply #41 on: November 04, 2021, 11:22:25 AM »
I think the eighteenth is an epic hole, one of the best long par fours I've ever seen. The only problem with it is the knowledge that when the pros get there, the epic hole will be a drive and a nine iron. But that's not Rob's fault.

Yes it is. He could have made 200 yards longer. What was the man thinking ?!  ;)

Niall

He'd have had to extend the island where the tee is by quite a lot to do that...


I've investigated it, but it would spoil the look of the 17th hole to have the 18th tee in the background.


Robin


Not sure if you have thought of having the pro tee on the other side of the island on 17th which straightens up 18th hole and makes it probably more visible to see more of the fairway and green - it would be hidden from view from the 17th tee - a nice modern crossover hole :) however the tour probably say too much interference and safety issues


Cheers
Ben

Robin_Hiseman

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Re: Jaunty JCB G&CC
« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2021, 11:25:38 AM »
I have that idea tabled Ben. It would require another bridge crossing though to avoid walking back across the green or through the bunker. It's quite a nice view from there, but only of relevance to the very best golfer. Too far to the fairway for the amateur.
2022: Al Mouj; Cleeve Hill, Painswick, Minch Old, Weybrook Park, The Astbury, Silloth, Royal Balfron, Strathendrick, Archerfield (Fidra), Roxburghe, Stoneham, Woburn (Marquess), JCB, Pyrford, Hayling, Clandon, Wentworth (East), Ashbourne, East Sussex National (West)

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Jaunty JCB G&CC
« Reply #43 on: November 04, 2021, 11:29:12 AM »
 Chain ferry! Chain ferry! Chain ferry!
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Ben Stephens

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Re: Jaunty JCB G&CC
« Reply #44 on: November 04, 2021, 11:54:50 AM »
I have that idea tabled Ben. It would require another bridge crossing though to avoid walking back across the green or through the bunker. It's quite a nice view from there, but only of relevance to the very best golfer. Too far to the fairway for the amateur.


You could have a floating tee at that end :) so you could vary the distance of the hole


Chain ferry is an option however you could have a drone taxi instead

Niall C

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Re: Jaunty JCB G&CC
« Reply #45 on: November 05, 2021, 08:42:47 AM »
Do you remember when you used to get a goody bag at these places, usually full of tees, a ball marker and sometimes a strokesaver ? Why not hand out a snorkel and pair of flippers instead ?

Niall

Sean_A

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Re: Jaunty JCB G&CC
« Reply #46 on: November 06, 2021, 05:10:44 AM »
I have that idea tabled Ben. It would require another bridge crossing though to avoid walking back across the green or through the bunker. It's quite a nice view from there, but only of relevance to the very best golfer. Too far to the fairway for the amateur.

I noticed you eyeing up that tee shot during our round. My first thought was about crossing the water and how an added bridge may spoil the scene of 17.

Ciao
« Last Edit: November 06, 2021, 06:51:17 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

Thomas Dai

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Re: Jaunty JCB G&CC
« Reply #47 on: November 06, 2021, 06:29:12 AM »
Robin Island and Pooh Sticks while walking across the bridge to/from it?:)
Atb

Sean_A

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Re: Jaunty JCB G&CC
« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2022, 03:47:21 AM »
Sometimes your wishes do come true and so a big thanks to JR and ID. Even 24 hrs torrential rain (which only stopped as we reached the turn) couldnít kill the fun.
 
Even the full name, JCB Golf and Country Club, is not your typical of the GB&I experience. It has the smallest Car Park Iíve ever seen at a GC and the changing room is positively minute, a few padded bench seats and complimentary lockers,  but with plentiful showers etc. The common area are comparatively  spacious and the service is efficient but never overbearing.   I was really surprised that a world beating firm having built this right by their HQ did so little to promote their brand Ė to the point where I was a tad disappointed not to learn more. Warm up facilities are nearer at hand than anywhere else I can think of.  Everything was ďjust soĒ. Its what I want from somewhere ďexclusiveĒ, I want to feel comfortable.
 
As the first is a hundred yards away it is readily apparent this is a cartball course. However I had never previously appreciated the relief from the rain they provide, so I wonít moan too much.
 
Without going into detail Iíll just say I loved every hole. Thereís lots of visual distractions some holes play easier than they look with large landing areas and others more difficult e.g as we are tempted by the thought of taking on the doglegs. Loved the use of centreline bunkers. The  greens are very large and have some surprisingly severe definition of discrete areas within them e.g. 17 and 18.  Really a great set of greens that define the course, without any feeling of repetition or the dreaded scalloped edge construction. Some of the areas in front of greens have to be seen to be believed and  the run off areas surprised and delighted me. Chipping off short grass gives a chance to recover (or make a fool of oneself). The colour of the sand seemed just right. The whole flowed seamlessly, offering a series of interesting challenges.
 
The 11th seemed almost like an homage to the 10th at the Belfry?(thatís meant as a compliment)
 
Negatives?  Still not 100% convinced that the style of bunker edging is perfectly suited to inland Britain.  Whilst the before photo's in the clubhouse show what a great job has been done creating "naturally undulating" fairways, in one or two places the mounding in the rough is a little obvious - including either side of the  drive in.  Aesthetics aside, the only criticism I'd offer of playability is that the 18th is unremittingly difficult from drive to green. Could not the left hand fairway bunker in front of the green,  be filled in and a flat area be created allowing The Rabbit a chance to safely negotiate a path to get on in 3? I probably would still have got myself in trouble, but there was no choice but to try and play off pretty severely sloping lies. On the whole the course coped really well with the deluge but our group did lose 2 balls Ė presumably plugged in the rough.
 
But back in the clubhouse thatís not what I was thinking of.  A warm glow banishing the cold of the day. The Renaissance Club is the only new that I've seen can compare to this, and that has much better land.

Thanks Robin. A very fine job, well done.

JCB gives Renaissance a serious run. I wouldn't be surprised if loads of well travelled folks think JCB is the better course.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

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