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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Goodness of GULLANE GC 1 New
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2022, 11:59:58 AM »
Believe it or not, I think #3 will be better for the changes, but they are relatively minor. Although, losing the 15th is a blow.

Who knows about #2? About a third of the course will be radically altered. It all depends on the quality of the design. This would require a walk through with the plans in hand.  That said, losing the 3rd is a major plus. I don't think losing 7 & 8 is a big deal either.

With an increase of 400 yards on #1 I have to believe this was a priority. That kind of added length doesn't just happen. Like David, the proposed opener sounds like a slog to me, but I have an anti-par 5 bias as a natural position. Besides this, the setting for 1 & 18 should not be altered. This area is one of my favourites in Scotland.

I didn't realize the 17th was disliked...I like it. However, coming at the 17th green from Course 2 17th fairway sounds very interesting to me. 

Ciao
« Last Edit: January 15, 2024, 03:43:23 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, Minehead, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Goodness of GULLANE GC 1
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2022, 02:13:54 PM »
This should gets things rolling!!! ;D


The club's secretary has given me permission to share the member's video presentation of the proposed changes to the three courses. I assured him that this group would be respectful in their comments ( ;D ;D ;D ) and that we might glean some worthwhile insights from your analysis. (Fingers crossed!)


In any case... here is the link:  https://vimeo.com/750433259/1269f7e691


By the way... NOTHING has been decided and there will be a LOT of discussion amongst the members before anything is etched in stone.


I personally like most of the ideas, especially the change to #15 on G3 which I consider the worst hole on the property. The combining of #1 & #2 on G1 is controversial, but not a deal breaker for me. I like a par 5 opener and this would make the trek up the hill much more interesting as #1 on G1 is an easy hole and will never be used in any kind of meaningful competition. #2 on G1 is a tough hole for most players, but the greensite has real issues with drainage and light. Moving the green to a better location farther back on the current hole would just make it too difficult for nearly everyone, so changing to a par 5 seems an all around good compromise to me. I also like the new potential location for the 18th green on G1 that this change would allow. The hollows near this new greensite mentioned in the video are fantastic and would make for a truly memorable finish to the round.


Dropping #17 from G1 is not a surprise. While I do like the view from the tee, it is really not a good hole and plays extremely difficult for the weaker golfer who cannot carry the cross bunkers. 


I look forward to your comments!

"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Goodness of GULLANE GC 1
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2022, 02:26:53 PM »
The Scottish Open has obviously changed all that and when I was through this summer I was taken aback by the change. Not so much in the changes to no.3, the new practice short game area and the upgraded visitor clubhouse, but by the feel of the place. It looked like there was a couple of coachloads from Perry Golf milling about, complete with the obligatory caddy following behind everyone. Maybe they are trying to turn Gullane into the Pinehurst of Scotland ?!
Niall - when you visited this past June the club was in the middle of trying to clear three year's worth of visitors that had backed up due to COVID restrictions. Last summer I hardly saw a visitor or a coach. This summer it was constant. Folks who had booked for 2020 and 2021 were rolled over on top of those who booked for 2022. It was an EXTREMELY busy summer at Gullane, to say the least, with players and caddies filling the courses most afternoons (not so much in the mornings).


Sorry you were "taken aback" during your two visits. Due to your travel schedule, you weren't able to experience the club in the morning when it was less crowded. I hope you come down again in 2023 and see if the club returns to a more favorable environment. I think it will.  ;)
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Goodness of GULLANE GC 1
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2022, 03:20:29 PM »
Mike


No need to be sorry, I had a great day, and in case you were in any doubt I thought the new par 3 finish on number 3, the practice chipping area and the changes to the visitor clubhouse were very well done and an improvement.


We will see what happens with overseas visitor numbers but I tend to think the genie is out the bottle and judging by some of the comments on the video (thanks for sharing BTW) the changes seem to be aimed at giving them more of a championship challenge.


As to the actual changes, I think it's a bit of a mixed bag and there are a few distinctly Gullane-like holes that I will miss in the 15th on number 3 and the 17th on number 2 although I don't doubt the holes that will replace them will be good.


In terms of the proposed new 1st on number 1 and the proposed new 3rd on number 2, it appears to me that in both instances they have simply replaced a short slog with a longer one.


The one proposed change that definitely gets my vote is losing the uphill par 3 11th with the benched green on number 3. I'd question though why you'd need to do anything with the previous hole (10th) as you could simply play from the existing 11th tee to the 12th green.


Niall 

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Goodness of GULLANE GC 1
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2022, 04:15:20 PM »
.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Goodness of GULLANE GC 1
« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2022, 04:15:51 PM »
I don't think there are any changes proposed to #10 on G3.


The proposal is to move the tee box on the current #12 down to the green area on the current #11 to straighten out the hole a bit... not a bad idea with the camber of the hole always an issue.


I think the changes are primarily motivated by trying to eliminate the truly awful holes on the three courses... and, there are a few awful holes... replacing them with something much better. I think the plan does that, but I kind of question that it might remove too much of the quirky "charm" of playing Gullane. I don't think G1 is ever going to be thought of in the same league as the Open Rota courses, so that is a fool's dream IMHO.

I absolutely HATE #4 and #15 on G3, so that is a great move to me... and, removing the current #2 on G2 (liked by Sean) makes that possible, so I'm OK with those changes as a whole.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2023, 07:38:12 PM by Michael Whitaker »
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Goodness of GULLANE GC 1
« Reply #31 on: November 07, 2022, 04:19:42 PM »
What many people overlook with these proposals is that although the concept may look good / work, no-one really has any idea whether the detailing will be appropriate to the rest of the links until it is in the ground.


For all the greens that are getting replaced, will the new ones fit? You tell me. That bit is on trust or an intimate and experienced knowledge of the architect’s previous work and values.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Goodness of GULLANE GC 1
« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2022, 06:08:46 PM »
I don't think there are any changes proposed to #10 on G3.


Mike


I've had another look and they are definitely looking at dog-legging the 10th left so that the new green will be closer to the new 11th/old 12th tee. It's a kind of blink and you'll miss it moment on the video.


Niall

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Goodness of GULLANE GC 1
« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2022, 06:15:04 PM »
I don't think there are any changes proposed to #10 on G3.


Mike


I've had another look and they are definitely looking at dog-legging the 10th left so that the new green will be closer to the new 11th/old 12th tee. It's a kind of blink and you'll miss it moment on the video.


Niall


In addition to 10 doglegging left to a green site sitting underneath the present 11th green, the 12th will have its dogleg softened by having its tee move down to occupy the present 11th green.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Goodness of GULLANE GC 1
« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2022, 06:43:49 PM »
I don't think there are any changes proposed to #10 on G3.


Mike


I've had another look and they are definitely looking at dog-legging the 10th left so that the new green will be closer to the new 11th/old 12th tee. It's a kind of blink and you'll miss it moment on the video.


Niall


In addition to 10 doglegging left to a green site sitting underneath the present 11th green, the 12th will have its dogleg softened by having its tee move down to occupy the present 11th green.

The ideas are good, it's just down to execution.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, Minehead, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Goodness of GULLANE GC 1
« Reply #35 on: November 08, 2022, 06:46:36 PM »
I’ve very recently seen the M&E Goswick front 9 proposals. They’re pretty interesting! Separate thread or offline maybe though…
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Goodness of GULLANE GC 1
« Reply #36 on: November 08, 2022, 07:00:33 PM »
I’ve very recently seen the M&E Goswick front 9 proposals. They’re pretty interesting! Separate thread or offline maybe though…
F.

I'm still waiting to see the Seaton Carew proposals. M&E are leaving their fingerprints everywhere!

Ciao
« Last Edit: November 21, 2022, 03:54:48 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, Minehead, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Goodness of GULLANE GC #1
« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2023, 05:45:14 PM »
All

See the updated photo tour on page 1. Gullane never fails to deliver.

Ciao
« Last Edit: September 29, 2023, 12:11:43 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, Minehead, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Goodness of GULLANE GC #1
« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2023, 08:06:42 PM »
Wanted to report that the M&E proposal to alter the three courses at Gullane will NOT be pursued. In an email letter from the captain the members were informed:

The Committee have therefore concluded that the Club should not proceed further with the course improvement proposals developed with Mackenzie & Ebert. We will, however, continue to explore ‘in-house’ options to enhance the layout of our courses, e.g. replace the 11th hole on No.3.

The club ran into serious opposition from the members for a good portion of the proposed changes, and NatureScot (the government agency in charge of overseeing SSSI’s) put the quash on using any of the land adjacent to G2 & G3 for new holes. So, it seems the Gullane courses will remain mostly “as is” for the foreseeable future.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Goodness of GULLANE GC #1
« Reply #39 on: September 28, 2023, 08:37:35 PM »
Wanted to report that the M&E proposal to alter the three courses at Gullane will NOT be pursued. In an email letter from the captain the members were informed:

The Committee have therefore concluded that the Club should not proceed further with the course improvement proposals developed with Mackenzie & Ebert. We will, however, continue to explore ‘in-house’ options to enhance the layout of our courses, e.g. replace the 11th hole on No.3.

The club ran into serious opposition from the members for a good portion of the proposed changes, and NatureScot (the government agency in charge of overseeing SSSI’s) put the quash on using any of the land adjacent to G2 & G3 for new holes. So, it seems the Gullane courses will remain mostly “as is” for the foreseeable future.


Brilliant.


God save Gullane.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Goodness of GULLANE GC #1
« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2023, 04:26:55 AM »
Wanted to report that the M&E proposal to alter the three courses at Gullane will NOT be pursued. In an email letter from the captain the members were informed:

The Committee have therefore concluded that the Club should not proceed further with the course improvement proposals developed with Mackenzie & Ebert. We will, however, continue to explore ‘in-house’ options to enhance the layout of our courses, e.g. replace the 11th hole on No.3.

The club ran into serious opposition from the members for a good portion of the proposed changes, and NatureScot (the government agency in charge of overseeing SSSI’s) put the quash on using any of the land adjacent to G2 & G3 for new holes. So, it seems the Gullane courses will remain mostly “as is” for the foreseeable future.


Brilliant.


God save Gullane.


Congratulations Gullane.
With The West Links at NB slamming the offer from the Royal Engineers of an attempted toe in the door, is this a revival of the traditional rivalry betwen the Lothians and Fife?
Well done the Clubs for swiming agianst the tide. Other service providers are available.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Goodness of GULLANE GC #1
« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2023, 03:10:27 AM »
I recently played Gullane 1 again and for some reason the 1st tee and 18th green area bleeding into town struck me as one of the great spots in golf. The recent proposal called for the 1st tee to be moved up the right of the fairway. I applaud the club for retaining the age old setting of 1 tee standing shoulder to shoulder with 18 green, the town and magnificent tree. Some things are more important than chasing professional events.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, Minehead, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Goodness of GULLANE GC #1
« Reply #42 on: October 03, 2023, 09:26:11 AM »
I recently played Gullane 1 again and for some reason the 1st tee and 18th green area bleeding into town struck me as one of the great spots in golf. The recent proposal called for the 1st tee to be moved up the right of the fairway. I applaud the club for retaining the age old setting of 1 tee standing shoulder to shoulder with 18 green, the town and magnificent tree. Some things are more important than chasing professional events.

Ciao


Completely agree, Sean.


Losing / altering that area was one of the major negatives in the proposal for me.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Goodness of GULLANE GC #1
« Reply #43 on: October 03, 2023, 10:19:35 AM »
I recently played Gullane 1 again and for some reason the 1st tee and 18th green area bleeding into town struck me as one of the great spots in golf. The recent proposal called for the 1st tee to be moved up the right of the fairway. I applaud the club for retaining the age old setting of 1 tee standing shoulder to shoulder with 18 green, the town and magnificent tree. Some things are more important than chasing professional events.

Ciao

Completely agree, Sean.

Losing / altering that area was one of the major negatives in the proposal for me.

Ally

The proposed change didn't really hit me until I saw the area again after reading the report. I hope that 1&18 scene never changes.

Ciao
« Last Edit: October 08, 2023, 04:37:55 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, Minehead, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Goodness of GULLANE GC #1
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2023, 12:41:38 PM »
When we were there during Walker Cup the amount of play was extraordi.nary but not frantic. Well organized and even I was impressed with how the club organized a lot of play for any place; member and visitor both.Can it be that many of these clubs are simply collecting so many visitor fees that they have that money burning a hole in the pocket syndrome and look to "course " alterations as legacy outlets for that itch.
Very hard for me to see how they can "improve" Gullane materially!!!!
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Goodness of GULLANE GC 1
« Reply #45 on: October 15, 2023, 02:13:54 AM »
Clubs are starting to bank meaningful amounts of cash. It does seem like some projects are at least partially about "because we have the money". The new Dornoch house is a prime example. To date, the Gullane big spend has been tasteful and aimed at servicing members and visitors. I may not agree with all of it, but I understand it and can see why it makes sense. I didn't get anything like that impression for the radical M&E proposals. Unless, the real goal was to add significant yardage to #1 for the purpose of chasing big events to host. Whether or not that possible goal justifies the radical changes is another matter.

Ciao
« Last Edit: October 15, 2023, 03:02:02 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, Minehead, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Goodness of GULLANE GC 1
« Reply #46 on: October 15, 2023, 02:44:58 AM »
I said it up in Reply 31 but I’ll say it again: It’s about the detail and these beautifully presented concept glossies never show that.


Sometimes it should just boil down to “Am I going to lose any greens?” in these renovations. That’s certainly where my focus is going to be when the inevitable starts knocking at my club’s door in the coming couple of years.

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