[Michael Dugger]

You go Tommy.  But on that piece of land, even if it was Sandpines next door (which Bandon surely isn't) I have a hard time buying into your 10-0 theory.

Part of the allure of BANDON DUNES RESORT, looking at it as a golf complex is the stunning property.  Overlooking the Ocean, dunes land and grasses.  Blah blah.  If a player was to make the trip to this magical place and not take in the view from Bandon #16 tee (not to mention some others) I would say that they have missed out on something really neat.  NOw whether or not this makes a case for 9-1, well I'm not sure.  Pacific is THAT incredible.  Almost every hole there is world class.  NOt a weak hole out there.  The routing makes for a moving experience.

Bandon, on the other hand, IMHO, has quite a few dogs.  I thought #6 was a little overrated.  #9 is ok, I thought 10 was actually sort of dumb.  I had no idea where the fairway was in relation to the green, bunkers.  Maybe the second or third time around this becomes a better hole.  #11 I almost can't remember except for a nice sod wall bunker.  But one sod wall bunkers makes a great hole not.  Tell you the truth I didn't really like any of the one shotters on Bandon except for #2.  I agree with Tommy about the long 15th.  BORING fake undulation leading up to a green that reminds me of Pumpkin Ridge or something.  

Pacific, on the other hand.  #3 and #12 are probably my least favorites.  But then Doak should be commended for using two par fives to take up the "bad" parts of the land.  I honestly think every other hole on that course is world class.  Take the pepsi challenge with anything.  #2, #7. #9(for the tee shot alone) #13, #14, #15 #17 and #18 all deserve two !! on the Doak scale, IMHO.

Bandon, on the other hand....I'd give two !! to #16 and that's about it.  I'd give #1, #4, #5  one !

Sorry if that's harsh.  Just my opinion.  I'd do a lot of uncomfortable things to be able to play either of those courses the rest of my life.

[Paul Richards]

Tommy:

Thanks for the follow-up.  The only really mis-placed bunker I found on Bandon was the one short and right of the first green that looked like - well, I'd rather not say that it looks like a puckering ##$%#^$!  

Also, am I missing something here?  What are the negatives to the seventeenth at Bandon?  It is a fantastic hole.  In fact, it would be a better 18th than the 18th that they play now!  My biggest complaint about Bandon is that the 18th is a bit of a let-down.  It is so undefined.  I watched where each of the 8 guys in my 2 groups hit the ball, and almost no one played on the fairway at 18 because it is so undefined.

To add to this, the 18th at Pacific is a good finisher, not a great one either.

The complaint I heard most about Pacific is that because of so much wind-damage since it was opened, the bunkers have lost most of their shape.  Because of that, you often-times get an unplayable lie that wasn't intended by Tom Doak and company.

[Brad Klein]

Just a personal preference here, but while Pacific Dunes is technicaly a better, more strategically diverse and interesting course, I also came to enjoy Bandon (again) a lot more this time as well for its use of land contours and more open shot-making feel. This was my fourth time there, and I've come full circle here.

Pacific is more demanding; Bandon is more fun. Pacific is harder work; Bandon is more relaxed and enjoyable and scenic along the coast. I think Pinehurst No. 2 is incredibly hard and well-designed, which is precisely why I don't like playing it too often - too much work. Why should golf be demanding all of the time? So just because Pacific Dunes gets rated higher doesn't mean a 10-0 vote for playing it exclusively, or even predominantly. I actually prefer a 4-6 balance; switching off, playing 36-holes one day on PD and 36-holes the next on BD.

In 1999 the caddie crew was a bit rough; they've improved steadily. I had the same caddie for four days last week and found all of the loopers in our groups to be well-informed and interesting characters who didn't speak up too much and they were part of the experience, which, by the way, is always a pricey one. But definitely worth it.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Something like 50-75 GW raters have seen PD and BD.  They have voted these two courses as top 10 modern out of 9000 or so courses in the US.  I think this is a pretty strong indication that these raters consider both courses to be modern masterpieces with a very fine line between them.  JC

[THuckaby2]

Jonathan has it right here - they are both modern masterpieces without a doubt.

Thus Tommy, while well-intentioned, is patently full of shit, and I say this with all love, affection and respect.  Insert the proper number of smileys here:  

I can understand and even agree with everything you say, Tommy - and still I'd say it's 6-4 max in terms of how one should spread his 10 rounds.  That's what you're full of shit about - not any of your assessments - those are spot on - but your leap that then one should take it to 10-0 and not even bother playing Bandon Dunes is what lands you in the dung heap on this issue.

See Tommy, man does not live by architecture alone.  Damn I love and respect your passion, always have... but there are different ways to take this and you are unique to say the least.  OK, I'll grant this:  maybe, just maybe, for the budding architect, or passionate student of the game, 9-1 might be a way to treat this.  I still think Bandon needs to be seen, as "resort" courses have a place in this world and if we are to call Bandon that, then it's the damn well best made in recent times, so it needs to be seen as a good example... but if study is all one is after, then yes, I suppose more time would be better spent trying to decipher the nuances and mysteries of Pacific.

But if you are there to PLAY the game, well... it's 6-4 max, and no one would be disappointed at 5-5.  Brad has it right, Bandon is damn fun to play.  I'd have to guess that's the aim of 99% of visitors there, and that's about whom my question was addressed.

So you know your stuff Tommy, as always, but in terms of this question, as posed, you remain full of shit.

But then again, I'm sure you were taking it with the "student" in mind, in which case, LONG LIVE THE EMPEROR!

TH

[Paul Richards]

Tom:

You said it all very well.

[THuckaby2]

Thanks, Paul.  And thanks for taking this in the spirit intended - that is, all in good fun.  Tommy and I have these little battles from time to time and I am guilty of taking them way too seriously myself.  This time I swear it is all good, all happy.  I only call people "full of shit" that I like and respect, if that makes any sense!

TH

[THuckaby2]

Very well said, great stuff redanman.  Bandon does suffer by proximity most definitely, and that's why I've come to be its pied piper, trying to make sure people don't completely short-shrift it in favor of Pacific.

TH

[Dan Grossman]

Brad Klein -

I am really interested to hear you say that you find Bandon "fun" and Pacific "demanding."  About 2 or 3 months ago after coming back from a BD/PD trip, I said the complete opposite.  As an average golfer (7 or 8 handicap) who plays the black tees at both courses when goes there, I think the opposite is very true.

Bandon Dunes
1.  All the par threes (at least in the winter) play really long and are very demanding
2.  #4 and #5 are extremely penal holes.  If you miss your drive on either hole or your second shot on #5, you will not find your ball and take at least double bogey
3.  Coming into many of those table top greens with a 4, 5 or 6 iron in a steady breeze is no easy task (#7 and #11 specifically)
4.  I just find very few birdie holes out there.  The holes where I might have a wedge into the green (#8, #10, and #11) are either blind or contoured such that it is difficult to get it close.  Exception - #3.  That hole is easy.
5.  I don't know what it is - but I found myself constantly playing from the bottom of a hole in the middle of the fairway.  It started to grate on me by the end of my 3rd round.

In contrast - Pacific Dunes
1.  I found that PD has easy and extremely hard holes.  Unlike Bandon, where there seems to be something difficult about most of the holes.
Easy - #1, #2, #3, #6, #11, #12, #16
Extremely hard - #4, #5, #7, #18

You certainly won't birdie or par all of the easy holes, but it takes a lot of bad shots to make double.

2.  It isn't nearly as demanding off the tee (IMO) as Bandon.  Its very difficult to lose golf balls unless you start pounding them in the ocean.
3.  On the extremely diffucult holes, it is only par that is extremely difficult.  If you choose to not go for the green on #4, #7,  or #13, there is ample room to layup and should make for an easy bogey.  Contrast this with #5 at Bandon, where there is no bailout.
4.  The par 3s at PD vary in length, I seem to hit the same damn club on each one at Bandon.  

Maybe its the wind that I have always played the courses in (Winter wind always), but I always feel like I have had fun at Pacific, regardless of what I shot.  At Bandon, whether I shot 78 or 85, I leave the course feeling like I got the crap beaten out of me.  

[Doug Wright]

Dan,

I had exactly the same reaction as you to Brad's comment about Bandon being more "fun." Your comments are spot on IMO. Bandon=demanding; Pacific=pure fun. Not to say I didn't have a blast playing both; the challenges are different at both but the opportunities to play a wider variety of shots are manifestly better at Pacific.

Maybe it is the wind?? I too have only played there in the winter...[Don't think so though]

All The Best,  

[JohnV]

Tommy,  is this the same person who was calling me in 1998 and raving about this new course in Oregon?  I know you said that you felt that you (and possibly others) over rated it early.  I don't believe it was over rated.  There were faults to begin with and I'm afraid that some of the changes have been for the worst also, but it is still a top 10 modern course in my book and I don't see how it will fall out of that unless a whole bunch of other Pacific Dunes' get built.

From what I heard Tom Doak say last Saturday night, he didn't turn down the offer to build the first course, it was already promised to David Kidd when he went there.  He also said that he was lucky in that he got the better piece of land which it undoubtedly is.  When Kidd was asked what he would change about Bandon, he said he wished he could have gone second.

As for the bunkers, I think they do look like a lot of links bunkers I've seen, especially those at Muirfield.  Sure they aren't the scraggely kind you prefer, but they are deep dark pits that effectively penalize most players.  Also, they cross the line of play in more places than the bunkers at Pacific I believe.

As for changes that I've seen that I don't like at Bandon, I don't like what they've done to the 1st fairway.  The new bunker on the right is totally out of place and the elimination of the one on the left definitely hurts.  The changes to 16 were unneccesary in my opinion, but I know a lot of others think they are good.  I don't understand the little chunk of fairway surrounded by bunkers on 17 which seems useless and I think they made 18 a much less enjoyable hole by removing the trouble on the right side.  It used to be that you had to hit in the fairway or you were dead.  Last Saturday, I almost hit it over the cliff and still got a 3-wood on the ball easily and made birdie.

Dan Grossman, if you think the par 3s are tough in the winter, go back in the summer and try them.  2 is much tougher as it plays in a cross wind rather than downwind.  6 is straight into the wind, 12 is cross, but it knocks the ball down real hard and it plays very long and 15 is almost unreachable in the summer.  I do wish there was a shorter par 3 to make things a little more interesting, but otherwise I like them a lot.  

The par 5s all have a different character, but #18 has been hurt by the changes as I said above.  The par 4 are all varied and I can't think of one I don't like, although 4 might be my least favorite because the tee shot has very little interest in the summer wind being just a long iron layup to keep it in play.  I think the 17th green is one of the features I like the most and I'm torn between 7 and 14 as to which one is my favorite hole.

I also like the fact that Bandon has more cross wind holes while Pacific is mostly up or down wind holes.

All in all, I'd probably go 60-40 if I were there all the time, which just happens to be what I did last weekend.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Tommy, well said and I love the attention to detail in your discussion. I do find 2, 5, 11, 12 and 14 to be superior golf holes on Bandon notwithstanding the wind direction. I like 1 if somewhere else on the course, 4, 6 or 15(too much alike) and 7 too. You notice I feel all the par 5's are very average. Your general observations on Bandon refects my own feelings. Naturally I am with you on Pacific 100%. I love every square inch of the course. If I were incharge the lower green on 9 as well as the lower tee on 10 would be played and eliminate the other.

[THuckaby2]

JB - I too agree with most, if not all, of what Tommy says about both courses.

The question here is, however, even if you agree with it, do you say play 10 rounds on PD and ZERO on BD, as the Emperor maintains?

I'll be very surprised if you agree with that.

TH

[John_D._Bernhardt]

That is true Huckster. I did play 3 to 1 Pacific this trip. That really is my about my playing preference. Bandon in the winter wind is a much better course and might get me to 2 to 1 Pacific if i were there more. There are alot of just great golf holes in the Bandon Dunes Resort. 10 to zip is too strong.

[Tom_Doak]

Two corrections:

First, as John V said, I did not turn down the site for Bandon Dunes, nor would I have.  It was already promised to David.  Moreover, when that call was made, Mike didn't even own the land for Pacific Dunes, which is why David didn't get to choose it.

(I say the land is better because the inland contours and vegetation are so much better, and because we didn't have to clear as much gorse out to build our course, enabling us to keep more of the natural contours.)

Second, while the bunkers are changing because of the winds (and will continue to change, as Sand Hills' bunkers do), they haven't changed all that much.  We did intend for golfers to occasionally get a lie where they had to go sideways or backwards from a bunker.  They're meant to be hazards.  It's a short course, but you have to play controlled golf.

I guess I'm lucky that people blame those tough lies on the wind instead of on me!

[Dan King]

I was also surprised to see Brad Klein say he thought BD more fun than PD, I thought the opposite.

I'd also put my ratio closer to redanman's, around 7-3 or 8-2, perhaps getting closer to 9-1.

To me, BD is like an American interpretation of links course. It has built-in fairness and encourages the aerial game. There are a few courses in Northern California comparable to BD. I'm not going to make the trek to Bandon, Oregon to play Bandon Dunes.

There is nothing like PD that I've played on this side of the Atlantic. To me, when I first played it, I thought it was revolutionary. I wanted to stay and learn everything there was to learn about it.

BD shoots its wad the first few times you play it. PD will keep on showing you new things, new strategies.

I liked BD the first time I played it. I liked the look, feel and maintenance of the course. I fell in love with PD.

I'm not going to travel all the way to Vegas for a $200 hooker. The $200 wench is great and all, and if in Vegas, if the table isn't being good to me I might spend some time with the streetwalker. But I'm not travelling to Vegas just to be with her. If I travel to Vegas I want the 2G call girl.

Dan King

"Even as the fairways grow into their contours, even as the greens grab hold of the sand, even before anyone pays a penny to play it, Pacific Dunes looks ancient, as though it's been there all along."
 --Tom Chiarella, Esquire

[tonyt]

From somebody who is coming over in a year to take in these two tracks among others, I've learnt a lot from this thread. Only time for two games? I'd go 1-1, mainly because otherwise, I couldn't compare, or appreciate the better of the two if I have no point of reference. A third game would always have gone to PD, and now perhaps a fourth.

I'm just delighted that a pair of Doaks are going in an hour down the road from me, and I already know two signed up members. Yay!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Dan, Thankfully, I'm not the only one that understands the difference between GREATNESS and Good.

John, You and I will always remain bloodbrothers, no matter if Tom Huckaby places you against me in a competitive round or not! Remember, he placed our other "Brother" against me first round last year. I held my ground, and then the GREATNESS of the Armenian won out. I think I left a mark though because my putting has never been better since! You, the ARmenian and myself do know the defintion of Greatness, and an officeful of people at Clorox can fight it!:)

Tony, If you want to see more GREATNESS then you must come to LA.

[tonyt]

Trust me Tommy, if I were to make three visits to the US in the next ten years, I will play a LOT of different courses. And not waste one game I hope, on a course without any significance. And I can't avoid LA, it being the entry point from Oz  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tony, Look for a hopefully by that time, THIN (Or at least thinner!) man in a Dark Metaliic Gray 2003 Chevrolet Silverado truck that will pick you up!

Right George?

[THuckaby2]

Dan, Thankfully, I'm not the only one that understands the difference between GREATNESS and Good.

John, You and I will always remain bloodbrothers, no matter if Tom Huckaby places you against me in a competitive round or not! Remember, he placed our other "Brother" against me first round last year. I held my ground, and then the GREATNESS of the Armenian won out. I think I left a mark though because my putting has never been better since! You, the ARmenian and myself do know the defintion of Greatness, and an officeful of people at Clorox can fight it!:)

Tony, If you want to see more GREATNESS then you must come to LA.

Mr. Naccarato:

The pairings at Barona last April were done BY REQUEST OF THE PARTICIPANTS, for the purpose of FUN.  Your pairings particularly were done in that light.  I believe you know this, but I also believe in setting the record straight.  Also, if you call that a "competitive round", jeez you need to play some real competition.  This was as low-key and fun as any round in which one keeps score can get.  The same spirit occurred a few weeks ago at Pasa and Pajaro... of course you would known this if you would have graced us with your presence!  Our loss, oh well.

I gather this is all tongue in cheek but I never know with you, Tommy.  It is on this end anyway!  

I also believe I know greatness, but of course I am the only one in this office at Clorox who does.    The point here is not to say that Pacific Dunes isn't great - IT IS, IT IS, IT IS, how many times do I have to say that??  I agree with you, I agree with Dan (and note even Dan didn't say do it 10-0!!!)  No, the point here is that to trek all the way to Bandon and NOT play a damn fine course right next door at all, ESPECIALLY when one has allotted time for TEN ROUNDS, is completely silly.  Cypress Point is great beyond argument, but if I'm there for 5 days and have unlimited access, do I play all my golf there, or do I venture over to Pebble, Spyglass, MPCC?  Sorry, but I'm gonna get around a bit - especially if I haven't played those others already.

I guess that's the fundamental difference here... which I tried to explain before.  Man does not live by architecture alone.

That's really all I'm trying to get at here, and a room full of electricians isn't going to convince me that your take is anything but completely.... er.... different from mine!   

To each his own.

And JB is MY blood-brother, you can't have him.  I've played some great ones with him... Neener-neener-neener.  

TH

[jhaley]

Tommy,
For a guy who knows everything about everything you missed it pal. A very talented guy named Roger Sheffield shapped all the bunkers at Bandon....Jim

[Norbert P]

Jim, thanks for that info.  My hats off to Mr. Sheffield and the crew that built Bandon.  They have presented the land with golf challenging grace.    

Bless this man Sheffield.  I'm in his corner.  Terrific work throughout.  (He didn't do the new bunker on BD 1 did he?)

  That said, Placek, et al, did some terrific work on PD.  

Tommy Nac, what say you on the fairway bunkers on PD 15?

  (Someday, I hope, courses will have a roster for giving credit to the prolatariat where credit is due.)  


One question I always wanted to know, comparing the two courses was...  

  With Doak having an established team and Kidd having to assemble his, why do we give more fanfare to Doak than Kidd?  

[Tom_Doak]

Because what you're really comparing is the end product, not me vs. David.

And because I put together the team!

P.S.  The man who shaped most of the bunkers at Pacific Dunes was not one of my own staff but Tony Russell, a native of the area and the brother of Bandon Dunes' superintendent, Troy Russell.  Of course Tony had the advantage of having me and Jim and Don flagging out exactly what he was supposed to dig, and supervising as he did it; but none of us can run the trackhoe the way Tony can.

[jhaley]

Slag,
I was in Bandon for the most recent of modifications a little over a year ago however, Roger was busy on the Big Island and the bunker was built by Tony Russell...Jim

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