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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bandon/Pacific
« on: March 23, 2003, 08:09:45 PM »
Just walked in the door from my visit to Bandon and Pacific.

Just wanted to report to y'all that they both really are as great as we've heard!! :) :) :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2003, 08:14:46 PM »
Paul:

   It truly IS an extraordinary place, isn't it?

I didn't want to leave; all was perfect!

Mike Keiser poured his heart and soul into every square inch of this place.

A wonderfully pure golf experience. I'm very happy for you.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

David Lott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2003, 09:38:44 PM »
The caddies are a big part of what makes the place--skilled and arrogant. They are a big reason why the pace of play is reasonable, notwithstanding the difficulty and the fact that many players are unfamiliar with the track. I gather they will be building some more courses that will have carts, but Bandon and Pacific are unimaginable without the fine caddies.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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David Lott

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2003, 07:25:59 AM »
David:

The caddies must have improved a lot since they opened.  I was shocked at the crew they had when we were there.  A few may have been good - just not the ones I saw.  Glad to hear it has improved.  In their defense, most were new to golf.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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THuckaby2

Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2003, 07:36:32 AM »
I'm with John - when I was there caddies were not much more than fatigue-fighting bag carriers.  A pull cart at 1/10th the price was a much better idea!

It is good to hear they've improved - the courses do justify arrogance from the caddies!

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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David Lott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2003, 08:11:23 AM »
I must have gotten lucky. I had great caddies all the way. All older guys who were not new to the game. The other caddies in my foursomes (I was there by myself and picked up games daily) were also good.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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David Lott

THuckaby2

Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2003, 08:13:36 AM »
When were you there, David?  I went shortly after Pacific opened and well... experienced caddies were few and far between.  I didn't even see any....

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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David Lott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2003, 08:15:51 AM »
Probably they were pretty bad at the start. Bandon/Pacific has made a point of hiring the locals--its a point of pride--and probably they needed the training.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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David Lott

THuckaby2

Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2003, 08:24:40 AM »
Fair enough - makes sense - that must have been the case when I was there.

BTW, the courses worked just fine without caddies at all!

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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THuckaby2

Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2003, 08:40:48 AM »
redanman:

Not to be difficult, but is the inference that you find Bandon Dunes not worth playing under those conditions?  No hassles, most would agree with you and most would say NO course is worth playing in that kinda weather!  Just want to get our terms clear here... I've very curious as to how the esteemed GW folks are gonna assess PD v. BD.

BTW, I had been checking the weather reports ever since our interpid travellers left the Bay Area last week.  I want no complaints from any of them about a little warm rain at Pajaro... they got 3 great days besides that... and compared to what was faced at Bandon, well...  ;)

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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David Lott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2003, 09:01:12 AM »
I was there last September--late in the month after the college students had left, and the caddies were all older guys. I'm a bit of a caddie snob, having been one, and playing at a club here in Chicago that has a wonderful caddie program. Our caddiemaster was courted by Bandon/Pacific to go out there and work but they could not match our deal. He did consult with them (flown out in the private jet!) and says they are serious about having a good caddie program.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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David Lott

THuckaby2

Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2003, 09:29:50 AM »
redanman:

Oh, no one's ever going to change the order of the ranking - PD is a better course than BD, and that's pretty clear.  

The discussions are fun in the DEGREE of separation between the two; ie, if you have ten rounds, how many get played on each course?

There are some here who would make it 10-0, which I find, well, I'm gonna be nice, "incorrect."  I'd say 5-5 would be fine with me, but 6-4 in favor of PD feels right.  PD isn't THAT much better than BD, by my reckoning.  They're both great.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2003, 10:12:51 AM »
BD over PD or visa versa.  I find the argument moot.  The beauty of the resort at Bandon is that Kidd created a power course while Doak built a finesse course.  A great one two punch.  

All they are missing is a parkland low wind course, which rumor has it will be constructed next by Crenshaw/ Coore.  Any further discussion on that topic?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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JohnV

Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2003, 10:20:36 AM »
Matt Allen from Bandon told us that they had 350 caddies for this year.  The started a 1 credit course at the local community college to train the caddies and most go through it.  I know they were rough in the beginning, but they are much better now from what I've heard.  Back in August of 1998 we had a caddie who was a high school kid who didn't play golf and had been driven around the course that morning.  He couldn't find the 4th tee (not an easy task in those days when there were no signs).  If they hadn't given us a map, we might have been lost out there forever which wouldn't have been a bad fate. ;)

A great weekend for all who attended and it was great to put a few more faces to the chatter in this group.

I did speak with two members of the group this weekend who did like Bandon a little more than Pacific so I guess it is different strokes for different folks.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Ben Cowan-Dewar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2003, 11:10:00 AM »
The only downside of my visit in August was the poor caddies. I had three, each was disappointing.

I elected to carry my bag for the remaining two rounds.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2003, 02:04:16 PM »
Sorry to hear so many had such poor experiences with the caddies there. :'(

My experience this week was just wonderful!  I recommend that you ask for a really excellent caddie by the name of Tom Olson.  He was a real treat and I enjoyed our time together (all four rounds!).  Call ahead and talk with the caddie-master and ask for Tom! ;) :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Grant_Willing

Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2003, 04:31:43 PM »
I also just returned from a trip to Bandon yesterday, it's really great.  I carried my bag while I was there but I got some local knowledge from the other caddies in my group.  The caddies seemed like they really knew what they were doing.  They knew how to play the wind, where to land your shots, what to avoid, etc.  I think this place is awesome, it shows that you don't have to push around a lot of land to create a great course.  And the elements present more than enough of a challenge, you don't have to build a 7200+ course to make it difficult.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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John_D._Bernhardt

Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2003, 06:32:27 PM »
TH I found the caddies to be much better than at most places I find them. The caddie program is serious. I saw a group of 12 being given lesson Saturday afternoon. I did not use one, but someone in my group did much of the time. Theweather actually turned out better than one would have expected. Thursday was heaven. Friday was August winds from the winter direction with rain most of the day. Saturday was heaven again after 11:00 am(rain before) and Sunday was great too. I would guess that 80/20 PD is the probable result. Bandon stacks up much better in the winter wind. 16 and 17 become good holes rather than architecture failures. There has been a change to 16 so you can now hit the upper deck and run into a second fairway giving one a shot at the green. Both are great courses but Pacific is just a stronger better designed course on a better piece of land.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Yancey_Beamer

Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2003, 08:30:32 PM »
I've played PD&BD in 2002 and this year. Caddies were great on both trips.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2003, 08:50:58 PM »
John:

I really enjoyed 16 and 17 at Bandon.  You had mentioned that they weren't great holes.  Can you please explain?   ???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

THuckaby2

Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2003, 07:12:54 AM »
Paul:

JB and I battled with Slag Bandoon and others for many pages here in previous times about #16 at Bandon.  From Slag's and now JB's description of the recent changes there, it appears they have rendered our complaints moot, which is a great thing!  The complaint was that in the summer wind there was nowhere to leave a tee shot - if layed up on bottom ledge, it wouldn't have room to stop, and if played to the top, there was also not enough fairway for it to find any.... As you can tell it has been fixed.

There were other battles about 17... but I didn't join those, I always found that to be a very fine hole.

And re caddies, again, good to hear they are taking it seriously now.  They surely didn't when I was there.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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THuckaby2

Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2003, 08:05:33 AM »
Fair enough, redanman.  That does seem to be the party line for GW raters!

Sorry, had to say that.  It's not really true, it was just fun to say. ;)

It's also interesting to me that PD comes out higher on course rating and slope - but understandable - and yes, illustrative.  I'm a course rater for NCGA - these Oregon courses are two very good examples for sharpening one's skills in that area.  I believe they need to send me up there for calibration, instead of Cinnabar Hills here as currently planned.   ;D

In any case, I tend to find less conventionality and more to like at BD than you do, while I agree with everything you say about PD - thus for me, it comes out 6-4 while not "dissing" PD one iota.

But people do tend to have different takes on this... and it does make for good chatter over Grandma Thayer's meatloaf.

TH

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »
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THuckaby2

Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2003, 08:32:19 AM »
redanman, that got audible guffaws.  Well done.

They are both great courses, that's the point.  To be serious for a moment, I must say I find "interesting" the take of those who would say PD 10, BD 0, that's all.  Oh I'm not naming any names, I can't because if he's given his proper IMPERIAL respect one can't write or say his name anyway.   ;)

This is all great stuff, and it's making me REALLY want to get back up there... some day....

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2003, 08:55:37 AM »
Paul, Tom mentioned the main problem with 16. It was a summer wind issue. The hole plays great in the winter wind. there has been an attempt to correct this by having a gap to hit toward so the ball can run through giving one a shot at the green. I find 17 really is a summer wind issue too. It is very difficult to keep the ball on the fairway in a crossing left to right 5 plus club wind. The right side is a red staked hazzard and the fairway slopes slightly in the direction to in the landing area. You end up hitting a punch draw with  a long iron or 3 wood to keep the ball in play. I like them in the winter but they are seriously flawed holes in the summer. There is a perfect natural par 3 for 16 to the lower fairway and there is a lot of space to the left of 17 to make a great strong par 4 or risk reward 5. This would improve the course tremendously during the summer and for match play in general.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2003, 01:49:50 PM »
Tom and redanman:

I'm going to have to go against you on this one.  I really loved Pacific, having played it twice first.  I fully expected to like Bandon much less, especially based on what I have heard and what I have read here.  So I was shocked to find that Bandon, although different than Pacific, was, in most every way, just as good! :)

Therefore, I will have to say it would be 5-5 in my book! ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG
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