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Garland Bayley

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Re: The Wrong Tees
« Reply #125 on: July 14, 2021, 01:06:13 AM »
Due to the obvious high quality of the collected data below, I would assert that driving distance goes down, as skill goes up. ;D

Korn Ferry Tour (lessor skilled)
1   Brent Grant   323.5
2   John Somers   322.9
T3   Taylor Pendrith   321.8
T3   Kevin Dougherty   321.8
5   Jordan Niebrugge   319.8
TOUR AVERAGE   300.9

PGA Tour (higher skilled)
1   1   Bryson DeChambeau   63   321.9   38,631   120
2   2   Rory McIlroy   57   318.7   34,422   108
3   3   Cameron Champ   63   317.6   37,480   118
4   4   Wyndham Clark   76   315.5   45,438   144
5   5   Will Gordon   84   314.9   51,648   164
Regardless of the year, an average driving distance of around 290 yards is typical.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: The Wrong Tees
« Reply #126 on: July 14, 2021, 12:07:01 PM »
Since no one answered my question about how Braodie obtained his data, I did a little bit of searching online and found this article: https://golf.com/travel/the-man-with-two-brains-stokes-gained-guru-mark-broadies-pioneering-analytics-have-radically-altered-the-game/
He collected tens of thousands of rounds. Maybe you should read the book before you comment so much on it? You're speaking from a place of ignorance.

It is my contention that he is overstepping when he makes statements like "Longer hitters tend to be straighter. Driver distance and driver accuracy improve with golfer skill."
And your contradictory information is… entirely anecdotal?


1) His measurements are made by shots taken on course. Since the longest shots will be those that land in short grass and stay in short grass, taking measurements on course automatically skews the data to show inaccurate shots are shorter. Driver shots that land and run out in the fairway are in almost all cases going to go farther than those that do not. So how does he know driver distance improves with skill based on this data?
No, because he measured the average drives against the SKILL LEVEL of the players. Look at the chart - the X axis isn't average length with the Y axis being average degrees offline. It's player ability level versus drive length and accuracy.

2) He has not randomized the subjects from which he collects data. The subjects are skewed towards those willing to keeps stats about their game. I would guess that these would be the same people that are interested lowering their scores through stats gathering. I would also surmise that these golfers are throttling back their swings to bring their stats inline with their goals, one of which would be to improve their accuracy.
Yeah, uhhhh, no.

If he wants to make assertions about longer hitters tending to be more accurate, he needs to allow his random sample to include smash mouth golfers that don't care much about how well they are aimed at the target, and others that might upset the apple cart of his premise. Furthermore, he needs the experiment to be set up to treat all struck balls equally, and not be set up to penalize the offline shots so that it produces an essentially self fulfilling prophecy.
Right. So now that you're off your dumb Pythagorean theorem idea, you're now telling one of the leading stats guys in golf how to collect and summarize statistics.

Oooooooookkkkaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy.

Occam's Razor, dude: the "smash mouth" golfers are rare, and the bad smash mouth golfers don't average anywhere close to 300 yards because they mis-hit it 80% of the time or something.

Better players tend to be both straighter and longer. If you were to define the game of golf and come up with the requisite skills, "accuracy" and "distance" would be near the top of the list, so I am not sure why it befuddles you so that the better the player, the "more" they have of BOTH of those things… particularly since a straight ball hit more flush goes farther than a ball hit with the same clubhead speed but which goes sideways 30 or 60 yards or whatever.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

Robert Mercer Deruntz

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Re: The Wrong Tees
« Reply #127 on: July 14, 2021, 01:52:03 PM »
At least in San Diego, there are many poor golfers who carry the ball 300 yards and usually crooked.  My buddy has two sons who are exceptional baseball players, and during Covid last year they got the golf bug, and they routinely hit it 350.  There is are houses on the 11th st Pauma Valley that they usually bombard off the 15th tee, and those houses are 300 yards carry and are close to 100 yards from the middle of the fairway.  More concerning, is that quite a few houses on the 11th are being hit off the 15th tee, even though the course was built with very big fairway corridors. This is not an isolated issue   Good athletes with modern equipment are hitting it very long and wild, and teeing forward based upon their handicaps may result in even more problematic  outcomes.

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: The Wrong Tees
« Reply #128 on: July 14, 2021, 02:03:15 PM »
At least in San Diego, there are many poor golfers who carry the ball 300 yards and usually crooked.
I'd take that bet.

I'd either win, or learn that your definition of "many" is pretty far off from how most people would define "many."

We're talking about the average drive. Bad golfers generally DO NOT average 300 yards. They may pop one occasionally, but they're not doing it very often, owing to their mis-hits, their slices, their heel jobs, etc.

"Anecdata" doesn't trump actual data.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

Rob Marshall

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Re: The Wrong Tees
« Reply #129 on: July 14, 2021, 09:33:20 PM »
What’s the definition of “better player”?
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The Wrong Tees
« Reply #130 on: July 14, 2021, 10:41:41 PM »
I'm thinking about it, and the last time I played with a consistently 300 yard but wild driver who fit the stereotypes was about 1981.  I can think of 1 or 2 others tops.


I think most of those stories are urban or golf legend, i.e. "A,guy I know said] his friend knew a guy who knew a guy who......"
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jim Sherma

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Re: The Wrong Tees
« Reply #131 on: July 14, 2021, 11:32:49 PM »
Jeff - I’ve played with three guys in tournaments over the past 2 months that carried their drivers 285-300. One was a junior in high school and a good player. The other two were ok, capable of low numbers when they found their misses, but very wild when it went south. There are more of these young high club-head speed guys out there than you might think. Not common amongst average daily fee guys maybe, but still definitely not negligible.

jeffwarne

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Re: The Wrong Tees
« Reply #132 on: July 14, 2021, 11:41:27 PM »
At least in San Diego, there are many poor golfers who carry the ball 300 yards and usually crooked.
I'd take that bet.

I'd either win, or learn that your definition of "many" is pretty far off from how most people would define "many."

We're talking about the average drive. Bad golfers generally DO NOT average 300 yards. They may pop one occasionally, but they're not doing it very often, owing to their mis-hits, their slices, their heel jobs, etc.

"Anecdata" doesn't trump actual data.


I know of  the golfers Robert refers to(pretty sure I work with their father on air) and sure, it completely depends on your definition of "many" but if 150 rounds ae played and 2 windows are broken does it matter how "many"?
I'll play along---poor golfers usually don't carry it 300 yards on wild shots as you mention, often because of oblique strikes.
But can't we agree that a house that once was safe, is less safe now because higher club and ball speeds are being generated by longer, lighter drivers with faces that rebound and balls that spin less?
If a ball struck 30 degrees off line by an athletic infrequent player was capable of flying 225 yards in 1985, wouldn't it follow that a golfer of similar ability with a modern driver and ball could hit it 30 degrees off line and have it go 260?
Which would put more property/people in danger than previously?


I see young athletic players flying it into our grass tennis courts 320 yards away(downwind) that also propel balls that nearly go that far into our first fairway(110 yards right of the center of our range)
Perhaps they could hit a wooden driver that far offline before, but never that far.


Watching the recent IKE  Amateur played at The Bridge, there are plenty of long drivers around-shockingly many carrying it 300, but there were many, many multiples of lost balls and provisionals on corridors averaging 80-100 yards wide, and with a field average well above 80, a lot of lost balls which would be in backyards on housing courses.


« Last Edit: July 15, 2021, 06:27:35 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Robert Mercer Deruntz

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Re: The Wrong Tees
« Reply #133 on: July 15, 2021, 12:11:24 AM »
Eric seems to mostly see golfers with major LOFT issues.  Out here in SD, there are a lot of incredible athletes playing golf.  And most baseball players out here play so golf, and SD probably has the best high school baseball depth in the country.  I know my friend's son was clocked at 134 to 137 on Trackman last fall, and his misses were more a function of path rather than contact.  When hitting balls at couple local ranges, I see a lot of kids who have speed and pretty good contact, but path and clubface issues.  Of course there are the usual LOFT types chopping away, but on the local courses, I don't see too many short hitters hitting from back tees.

jeffwarne

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Re: The Wrong Tees
« Reply #134 on: July 15, 2021, 06:30:14 AM »
Eric seems to mostly see golfers with major LOFT issues.  Out here in SD, there are a lot of incredible athletes playing golf.  And most baseball players out here play so golf, and SD probably has the best high school baseball depth in the country.  I know my friend's son was clocked at 134 to 137 on Trackman last fall, and his misses were more a function of path rather than contact.  When hitting balls at couple local ranges, I see a lot of kids who have speed and pretty good contact, but path and clubface issues.  Of course there are the usual LOFT types chopping away, but on the local courses, I don't see too many short hitters hitting from back tees.


Well Robert, when those guys are playing baseball,"path" issues result in shorter distance to left and right field fences, and spray hitting doubles and triples on mishits ;)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: The Wrong Tees
« Reply #135 on: July 15, 2021, 07:07:34 AM »
But can't we agree that a house that once was safe, is less safe now because higher club and ball speeds are being generated by longer, lighter drivers with faces that rebound and balls that spin less?
Sure, but I haven't argued against that. People generally swing the driver faster these days.

Eric seems to mostly see golfers with major LOFT issues.

No, I have seen the data from thousands upon thousands of golfers. I'm not referring to anecdotal evidence.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

Kalen Braley

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Re: The Wrong Tees
« Reply #136 on: July 15, 2021, 11:25:10 AM »
What’s the definition of “better player”?


My impression is a single digit or better HC.  Regularly shooting scores in the 70s or better, with a few low 80s sprinkled in...

Thomas Dai

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Re: The Wrong Tees
« Reply #137 on: July 15, 2021, 02:47:45 PM »
What’s the definition of “better player”?
My impression is a single digit or better HC.  Regularly shooting scores in the 70s or better, with a few low 80s sprinkled in...
Still someone for whom the course is too hard …. coz if the course wasn’t too hard for them well, they wouldn’t need a handicap! :)
Atb

Kalen Braley

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Re: The Wrong Tees
« Reply #138 on: July 15, 2021, 02:59:36 PM »
What’s the definition of “better player”?
My impression is a single digit or better HC.  Regularly shooting scores in the 70s or better, with a few low 80s sprinkled in...
Still someone for whom the course is too hard …. coz if the course wasn’t too hard for them well, they wouldn’t need a handicap! :)
Atb


Yes Thomas good point.

But when I read better, i usually just add two words to the end for context.. "than most".  Of all the golfers on the planet, I'm guessing maybe 10-15% of them are legitimate single digit cappers or "better"

P.S.  Let us not forget the generally accepted context for par : "For golf purposes, the USGA defined "par" as, "the score that an expert player would be expected to make for a given hole. Par means expert play under ordinary weather conditions, allowing two strokes on the putting green."

Garland Bayley

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Re: The Wrong Tees
« Reply #139 on: July 15, 2021, 03:47:40 PM »
...
It is my contention that he is overstepping when he makes statements like "Longer hitters tend to be straighter. Driver distance and driver accuracy improve with golfer skill."
...
... the "smash mouth" golfers are rare, and the bad smash mouth golfers don't average anywhere close to 300 yards because they mis-hit it 80% of the time or something.
...

You may be talking about a golfer's average, but he did not make that qualification in his statement. Therefore, "It is my contention that he is overstepping" in his statement.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: The Wrong Tees
« Reply #140 on: July 15, 2021, 05:04:37 PM »
You may be talking about a golfer's average, but he did not make that qualification in his statement. Therefore, "It is my contention that he is overstepping" in his statement.
He's not over-stepping. He has the data of tens of thousands of golfers and is an expert in precisely this type of stuff.

Better players tend to be both longer and more accurate (as measured by degrees offline). The R^2 is not 1.0, but it's strongly correlated to both values.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

A.G._Crockett

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Re: The Wrong Tees
« Reply #141 on: July 15, 2021, 05:38:59 PM »
When I was a student some years back, Mrs. Pate gave me an F on a book report that I thought was well-written.  I went to her after class to ask why I had received an F, and she answered that I got an F because F was the lowest grade that she was allowed to give.  I didn't understand, and she explained in no uncertain terms that no matter how good my writing was, it was quite obvious that I had not read the book I was reporting on.  And she was right, of course.

From that time on, I've made it a point not to discuss books that I have NOT read in a voice that implies that I know what I am talking about.  It has been a good policy, I think, and one I intend to continue for whatever time I have left.

Oh, I forgot to mention one thing.  Mrs. Pate was my 5th grade teacher; I was 10 years old at the time.  Even that may have been late to learn the lesson that one should read books before one critiques said books. 
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Tim Martin

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Re: The Wrong Tees
« Reply #142 on: July 15, 2021, 06:04:52 PM »
Oh, I forgot to mention one thing.  Mrs. Pate was my 5th grade teacher; I was 10 years old at the time.  Even that may have been late to learn the lesson that one should read books before one critiques said books.


A.G.-I agree and would say the same rule should apply for critiquing golf courses. It’s not fair to the architect if someone hasn’t played or walked the holes.

A.G._Crockett

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Re: The Wrong Tees
« Reply #143 on: July 16, 2021, 07:04:52 AM »
Oh, I forgot to mention one thing.  Mrs. Pate was my 5th grade teacher; I was 10 years old at the time.  Even that may have been late to learn the lesson that one should read books before one critiques said books.


A.G.-I agree and would say the same rule should apply for critiquing golf courses. It’s not fair to the architect if someone hasn’t played or walked the holes.
Tim, I agree 100%.  Back in the days of Pat Mucci and Tommy Naccarato and Tom Huckaby a host of others that brought this site to prominence, that was gospel.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Rob Marshall

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Re: The Wrong Tees
« Reply #144 on: July 16, 2021, 08:55:35 AM »
Oh, I forgot to mention one thing.  Mrs. Pate was my 5th grade teacher; I was 10 years old at the time.  Even that may have been late to learn the lesson that one should read books before one critiques said books.


A.G.-I agree and would say the same rule should apply for critiquing golf courses. It’s not fair to the architect if someone hasn’t played or walked the holes.
Tim, I agree 100%.  Back in the days of Pat Mucci and Tommy Naccarato and Tom Huckaby a host of others that brought this site to prominence, that was gospel.


I miss Pat. He was a wealth of information.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Garland Bayley

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Re: The Wrong Tees
« Reply #145 on: July 17, 2021, 12:35:46 AM »
When I was a student some years back, Mrs. Pate gave me an F on a book report that I thought was well-written.  I went to her after class to ask why I had received an F, and she answered that I got an F because F was the lowest grade that she was allowed to give.  I didn't understand, and she explained in no uncertain terms that no matter how good my writing was, it was quite obvious that I had not read the book I was reporting on.  And she was right, of course.

...

I guess I have to give you and Erik an F, as neither of you have made the slightest attempt at answering a simple question about the book. Dare i surmise you haven't read it? ;)

Erik at least claims it was from tens of thousands of rounds of golf, but criticizes my suggestion that his method was described in the article I linked. Yet still he does not state how the data was collected.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

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Re: The Wrong Tees
« Reply #146 on: July 17, 2021, 12:48:44 AM »
...
We're talking about the average drive. Bad golfers generally DO NOT average 300 yards. They may pop one occasionally, but they're not doing it very often, owing to their mis-hits, their slices, their heel jobs, etc.
...

There, you see you said it. Golfers capable of long hits are inaccurate. A very nice refutation of Broadie's "Longer hitters tend to be straighter." ;D

Thank you for your support!
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: The Wrong Tees
« Reply #147 on: July 17, 2021, 06:46:05 AM »
I guess I have to give you and Erik an F, as neither of you have made the slightest attempt at answering a simple question about the book. Dare i surmise you haven't read it? ;)
Surmising that would be on point for you and as accurate as anything else you've said in this topic. You've offered nothing but anecdotes, but sure, you know more about this than a guy who has made a name for himself doing just this stuff.

Again, of the skills you could list that make for a better golfer, distance and accuracy would be at the top. It makes sense that better players hit it both farther and more accurately than worse players. There will be exceptions, but they aren't as prevalent as many seem to believe by their anecdotal evidence.

Pretty simple.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

Garland Bayley

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Re: The Wrong Tees
« Reply #148 on: August 08, 2021, 11:57:08 PM »
When I was a student some years back, Mrs. Pate gave me an F on a book report that I thought was well-written.  I went to her after class to ask why I had received an F, and she answered that I got an F because F was the lowest grade that she was allowed to give.  I didn't understand, and she explained in no uncertain terms that no matter how good my writing was, it was quite obvious that I had not read the book I was reporting on.  And she was right, of course.

...

I guess I have to give you and Erik an F, as neither of you have made the slightest attempt at answering a simple question about the book. Dare i surmise you haven't read it? ;)

Erik at least claims it was from tens of thousands of rounds of golf, but criticizes my suggestion that his method was described in the article I linked. Yet still he does not state how the data was collected.

I can see why A.G. and Erik made no attempt to answer how the data was collected based on having read the book. Other than stating he used Shotlink data from the PGA Tour, Broadie says little about how the data was collected, other than to say he has lots of it. However, they have no excuse for not answering whether the research was published in peer reviewed journals. The book has no bibliography, nor does it mention any published research. So there was no reason to omit stating that other than perhaps it would upset their apple cart of idolizing Broadie.

I thought of raising their grades to C, but their utter failure to recognize that Broadie himself disputed his own assertion suggests though they may have read the book, they don't seem to remember or comprehend much from it. On page 102, Broadie wrote, “For a 90-golfer who hits wild 300-yard drives, accuracy is the weakness that needs to be addressed.” So Broadie admits that it is possible to hit it long without having accuracy! Furthermore, he discusses how Arnie learned to hit it long before learning to hit it straight by stating on the same page that Arnie's father’s advice to Arnie was: “Hit it hard boy. Go find it and hit it hard again.” So Broadie was making the same arguments that length and accuracy don't go hand in hand that I was making, and A. G. and Erik either didn't retain this from their reading, or avoided it, because it didn't mesh with their idolization of him.

Broadie further directly contradicts his highlighted assertion that A. G. and Erik have been defending here with his further statement on page 102, “Junior golfers who hit it long can often learn to hit it straight later.”

Finally on page 103, Broadie highlights the assertion, “Longer hitters tend to be straighter hitters.
This is a strange assertion since it appears on the same page as his statement “For tour pros, there’s little relation between distance and direction.” One has to wonder if he himself has been reading what he has been writing. ???

If this were a book review, I would have to give the book a thumbs down. It appears to be simply an effort monetize a simple (in his own words) calculation. It only takes subtraction to come up with the stats given the database of averages compiled from Shotlink. I found quite boring all the added fluff to fluff the content up to book size. I would recommend the Cliff's Notes (if one exists) version over the full book.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: The Wrong Tees
« Reply #149 on: August 09, 2021, 07:07:57 AM »
I can see why A.G. and Erik made no attempt to answer how the data was collected based on having read the book.

Because at a certain point (which I keep moving earlier and earlier into any conversation with you), wasting time engaging with you is just that: a waste of time. You've got absolutely nothing to stand on here.

What data have you got, Garland? Does it include millions of shots?
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

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