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Jeff Kallberg

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GCA and classical music - some interesting parallels?
« on: June 22, 2021, 08:12:40 PM »
In a separate thread, Tommy Williamsen began by observing:


"Two days ago, my wife and I drove the eight hours from our daughter’s home in Ann Arbor to our home in Virginia. On the car radio I mostly listened to Symphony Hall on XM. I listened to a Beethoven Symphony, a Rachmaninoff piano Concerto and loved them. The drama and intensity of Beethoven and the soaring melodies of Rachmaninoff thrilled me. Then a number by Phillip Glass was played. The music was busy, the harmonies disjointed, and the theme repeated ad nauseum. I turned the radio off. My sister loves Glass because he is “more interesting” than the old masters. I can appreciate that even if I’d rather have the flu than listen to most of his stuff."


Tommy drew this comparison between varieties of classical musical in order to raise a question about homogenization of taste among aficionados of golf architecture.  But it drew my attention for another reason, namely that through one of my professional roles (among other duties at Penn, I'm a music historian) I've been struck by some interesting similarities in the debates and concerns in the two areas.  For example, music historians have spent a lot of time in recent decades "restoring" works by major (and minor) composers to versions that we think more closely resemble what the composers intended, as compared to the variously modified versions of the scores that have come down to us over the centuries.  The debates over how we can establish a composer's "intention" are strikingly reminiscent of some of the debates I've read on this site about what it is that happens when we attempt to restore, say, a George Thomas design from the 1920s.  And the practices of musicologists and performers in going back to look at original documents with a view toward recapturing some element of the original is not too different from an architect consulting original Flynn drawings.  (I don't know who played the Rachmaninoff concerto that Tommy alluded to in his post, but before Krystian Zimerman recorded the First and Second Concertos, he visited the Stokowski and Ormandy collections here at Penn, because Rachmaninoff's favorite orchestra was the Philadelphia, and Zimerman wanted to look at the performing parts from when Rachmaninoff played with the orchestra to see if he could glean any "original intentions.")


I could go on, but I have a specific question about how all this might relate to golf architecture.  When a music historian "restores" a score, a basic principle (in the better editions) is that it will be clear to the performer which marks in the score definitely derive from the composer, and which derive from the modern editor - the idea being that a performer has the option to ignore or embrace what the editor added.  Now obviously a golf course is not a music score:  you have to play the course as it is presented to you, and you can't decide to ignore what Hanse added to Ross.  But do modern architects engaged in restorations ever find ways to make it clear to the golfer what aspects of the renovations are "theirs," and which reproduce (as closely as might be feasible) the original design?




mike_malone

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Re: GCA and classical music - some interesting parallels?
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2021, 10:13:04 PM »
Jeff,


 You have wandered onto a golf architecture discussion group. You realize that people like Jim Coleman read things here and comment, right?


  So, we like to start discussions with a simple question or an outrageous statement.


How can we turn this erudite beginning of yours into something that has a life?


I don’t think architects tell you which part of a restoration is theirs. But I think you want more.




What do you think is worth discussing?




I’m interested in your take on the dilemmas of restoration.





AKA Mayday

Jim_Coleman

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Re: GCA and classical music - some interesting parallels?
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2021, 11:30:57 PM »
   I’ve always felt the quality of the participants here is very high.  Kallberg’s presence raises the bar.

Peter Pallotta

Re: GCA and classical music - some interesting parallels?
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2021, 01:24:48 AM »
Welcome, Jeff.

I hope the architects tackle your good and multi-faceted question, and from many different angles.

From my (unlettered) perspective, based just on reading about 'restorations' here on this site, I think of the current era of restorations like this:

a. The best/award-winning restorations are akin to Glenn Gould's interpretations of Bach: i.e. reverent, insightful, sensitive, and technically & emotionally brilliant -- but also highly original and unique, and thus enjoyed and celebrated as much for the "Gould" as for the "Bach". [Though I think some architects would strongly disagree with me there.]

b. The overall discussion & debates about modern-day restorations (here and elsewhere) are akin to the famous disagreement that Gould and Bernstein had in the early 60s -- when, before Gould-the-soloist played a Brahms' piano concerto, Bernstein-the-conductor took to the podium to very publicly disavow the very interpretation that was to follow!

« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 01:38:54 AM by Peter Pallotta »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: GCA and classical music - some interesting parallels?
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2021, 10:19:59 AM »
The restoration catch phrase is usually, "I don't want golfers to know I was here."  Your concept probably applies more to what I call a sympathetic renovation, but what do I know.


We have had threads here comparing designing golf courses to composing songs.  I think Crenshaw said something like that.  I compare the creative design process to comedy as well, where the comedian starts with common everyday situations, and in the end substitutes something totally different and unexpected.  Like the Steve Martin routine where he laments that he "kind of blames himself for his girlfriend's death" and after the setup, follows with the punch line that "I shot her."  Or after talking about why you put your name on your skis, he tells us he rode the lift chair with some guy named "rental."


Short version, I believe creativity resides in the ability to continually consider different combinations of things, in whatever your field, rather than follow a straight line progression to solve (in this case) a design problem.


I have also commented that unlike music, movies, television, or nearly any art form where you can skip, say, action movies to avoid them if you don't like those, golfers really can't skip a hole they don't like, so in that way, golf course design is more important than pure art.  How many bad holes does it take to ruin a round?  One bad one decreases joy by 5.5%, two by 11%, etc.  If I am paying anything other than a nominal green fee, I think I deserve more than 89% quality golf holes!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff Kallberg

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Re: GCA and classical music - some interesting parallels?
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2021, 06:32:54 PM »
Jeff Brauer's notion of "sympathetic restoration" is an interesting one, and certainly makes a lot of sense from the standpoint of whoever funded that kind of restoration, who presumably wants to attract the golfer (or club-member) with a kind of "seamless" experience that harks back to some period in the course's past.  (FWIW, there's a kind of music editing that seeks to achieve something similar, so "no listener will know that the editor was here".)


Maybe my question has to do with how golfers who care about architecture understand/experience/process something like "authorship" when restoration takes place.  In Jeff's "sympathetic restoration," I assume the goal is to have the golfer think "Maxwell," and not whoever else might have been brought in for restorations or renovations over the years.  But other times it seems to be a point of pride for courses to list every architect who has had a hand in shaping the course, where (sometimes) the last name in the chain of architects is the one who garners the attention of the aficionado?

mike_malone

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Re: GCA and classical music - some interesting parallels?
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2021, 07:07:16 PM »
Many sympathetic restorations happen where archival material is scarce.  Very few clubs have extensive documents like designs and rich aerial photo collections. Where these are available reverent restoration is achievable.
AKA Mayday

Jim_Coleman

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Re: GCA and classical music - some interesting parallels?
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2021, 12:41:29 PM »
   Correct me if I'm wrong.  Aren't today's musicians playing with the same equipment as the musicians of 200 years ago?  Indeed, aren't some of the best players playing with literally the same equipment?

Bernie Bell

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Re: GCA and classical music - some interesting parallels?
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2021, 01:03:01 PM »
   Correct me if I'm wrong.  Aren't today's musicians playing with the same equipment as the musicians of 200 years ago?  Indeed, aren't some of the best players playing with literally the same equipment?
Jim, I'm no expert but I don't think this is correct.  May be true that some instruments haven't changed much, but there's a whole sub-set of musicians that perform on period instruments.  Kind of like the hickory crowd, if I understand correctly.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2021, 01:10:38 PM by Bernie Bell »

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: GCA and classical music - some interesting parallels?
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2021, 01:24:00 PM »
The instruments are similar but many produce a very different in sound. Bach and Handel wrote for the harpsichord. When I was playing Bach's first invention (which I never really mastered) it was on a piano. It is almost as different as hickories and steel. I wonder how either of them might hear their music on what is essentially a different instrument. Similarly, how would Flynn or Raynor feel about some of the changes to their courses that modern agronomy and clubs bring to their designs?
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

BCrosby

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Re: GCA and classical music - some interesting parallels?
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2021, 02:22:22 PM »
Jeff -


Delighted you started this thread. I have often thought there are parallels between music history and the history of golf architecture. In both cases the issue of authorial 'intention' is a gnarly one. I think about the issue a bit differently than you do.


Both art forms are fundamentally performative. Mozart had a clear idea about how he wanted, say, a piano concerto to sound to an audience in Vienna circa 1785. His written musical text tells us a lot about that. The instruments in use in the era would be a factor. Playing practices of the period would be another. (Trying to recapture the way Mozart's music was played in his lifetime is, I take it, at the heart of the original instruments movement.) The idea being that playing Mozart with older instruments and staying as close as possible to his score brings us, presumably, closer to Mozart's musical intentions than Thomas Beecham in 1960 conducting the London Symphony and a soloist playing a modern grand piano.


Golf architecture is also fundamentally performative. Golf architects design golf courses for people to play golf on them. And like Mozart, architects have certain ideas about how the game should be played on their courses. We have schools of gca that parse (in a rough way) such preferences among architects. Where bunkers are placed, ground contours utilized, the location of hazards and so forth are not random. An architect arranges those features in ways he thinks (sometimes knowingly, sometimes not) will encourage (or maybe discourage) certain ways of playing the game. At the heart of the course restoration movement and to some extent the popularity of using hickory clubs - not unlike the original instrument movement in music - is to return to a way of playing the game that matches up better with the intentions of the original architect. Again, like the original instrument movement, the rationale is that returning a course to its original design and playing it with older implements makes it a more interesting, challenging, hence better game to play. (That's why you go to the expense and trouble of restoring a course, no? And also why Trevor Pinnock, Nickolaus Harnoncourt and others devoted their musical careers to playing music that tries to recapture the way it sounded at the time it was composed, no? They thought it made for a better, more interesting musical performance.)


So it is the performative aspect of both disciplines that, I think, overlap in interesting ways. Getting back to original scores or architectural drawings is a part of recovering the performative aspect of both disciplines, but doing so is only an aspect of a larger project.


Again, delighted you joined in. I hope you will hang around.


Bob
       

Steve Lang

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Re: GCA and classical music - some interesting parallels?
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2021, 03:48:20 PM »
 8)  Jeff,


So who's a parallel candidate gca to Schoenberg?
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

BCrosby

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Re: GCA and classical music - some interesting parallels?
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2021, 04:24:41 PM »
Desmond Muirhead.




Peter Pallotta

Re: GCA and classical music - some interesting parallels?
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2021, 05:42:57 PM »
If a restoration aimed to provide us the exact experience of our golfing ancestors, many would be in for more than we bargained for: the 6500 yard classic they played in the 20s with hickories might have to be 8000+ yards for us, using modern equipment, to play in the same way. Luckily for the 'purists' among us, no architect is actually trying to replicate that earlier playing experience when restoring a golden age great; at best/most, they are trying to recreate the golf course itself, at least in its externals.
As Tommy notes, Bach composed not for the modern-day piano and the sounds we love and are accustomed to hearing, but instead primarily for the organ & harpsichord (as well as the early pianos) of his day. But if I had to listen today to the Bach canon on harpsichord or organ -- so as to share most closely in the experience of my listening ancestors -- I think it too would prove more than I bargained for.
I'm happy to hear Bach's essential music (or is that, essentially Bach's music) on a Steinway instead.

« Last Edit: June 24, 2021, 06:19:48 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Steve Lang

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Re: GCA and classical music - some interesting parallels?
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2021, 09:04:50 PM »
Desmond Muirhead.


ATONAL BINGO, at least for 12 notes
« Last Edit: June 24, 2021, 09:46:16 PM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Jeff Kallberg

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Re: GCA and classical music - some interesting parallels?
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2021, 08:41:48 PM »
Thanks for all the comments (and for taking the music side of the question seriously, for which you all get extra credit!). 


Bob draws interesting comparisons between the goals of the Historically Informed Performance (aka "HIP") movement, and those of classical course restoration.  I particularly like the notion that both seek to make the experience for the player more interesting, while also lending insight into a particular era from the past.  There's been an argument made on the music side that this aspect of HIP makes it a fundamentally "modernist" idea, that what it's about is about "making new."  I get the point that we all like new experiences, but I think excellent restoration - especially on classical courses with "great bones" - brings us in touch with the past in ways that I really enjoy.  (This is one of the reasons I look forward to the completion of the Cobbs Creek reno.)  Of course, I'm a historian, so I'm supposed to like this stuff!  YMMV.


As for the Schönberg of GCA . . . well I like the fellow (basically a romantic composer at heart).  Maybe I'd like Muirhead too???


Jeff

mike_malone

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Re: GCA and classical music - some interesting parallels?
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2021, 09:41:21 PM »
Whether it’s music or golf architecture the only reason to go back is because it’s better. If it’s just old it isn’t worth it.


https://twitter.com/cravenpartners/status/1408673704960167937?s=21
« Last Edit: June 26, 2021, 06:23:23 AM by mike_malone »
AKA Mayday

BCrosby

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Re: GCA and classical music - some interesting parallels?
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2021, 08:04:24 AM »

As for the Schönberg of GCA . . . well I like the fellow (basically a romantic composer at heart).  Maybe I'd like Muirhead too???



I think Muirhead was also a romantic at heart.  ;)


Bob

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: GCA and classical music - some interesting parallels?
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2021, 01:04:29 PM »
Peter, as someone who appreciates the golden age of architecture, I'd have thought you might prefer the harpsichord. I like thee piano but do enjoy a good baroque keyboard piece on the harpsichord. Scarlatti on the piano just doesn't cut it.


There is one element of good music that is universal and that is the theme. It is easy to pick up on most Beethoven symphonies and you come to expect the theme repeated, even if it is played by different instruments. I have played some courses that are just a collection of holes. One of the trademarks of a good course is that there is a theme that flows through all 18 holes. Even though most of Raynor's courses consist of many template holes there is still a flow to the bunkering and green shapes and slope.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2021, 01:08:09 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

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