[Matt_Ward]

Gentlemen:

A few points need to be restated AGAIN because a few of you have that rare ability "spin" or create things that I didn't say.

First, I don't doubt that Florida has s-o-m-e courses of high quality. I mentioned them previously. Unfortunately, I can count with my two hands the number of courses that really leap off the page and make me want to book a flight and play them.

Second, the bulk of the courses (the state leads the nation with over 1,100 courses) is simply piss poor stuff. End of story.

frank d:

Knock yourself out with the places that call themselves golf courses. I've served my "time" playing Florida golf and I'll leave you to e-n-j-o-y all the architectural gems that dot the scintilating landscape.

Adam C:

Yes, the bar is high on my part. Why bother playing the slop that exists in Florida? I've done my "time" playing those gems and it simply is horrendous stuff. Adam -- I don't pull punches on any state I've visited. Given all the promotional materials I receive from facilities in Florida you would think they would begin to understand what qualioty golf should be about. The agenda in Florida, more than justa bout any other location in the USA, is sell, sell, sell real estate -- the golf is simply a prop to lure northern folks into the mix.

One other thing -- if you bothered to read my comments I did mention the qualities of Black Diamond (Quarry) located in Ocala in the central part of the state. I liked the course a lot and believe it's a top 100 layout.

Adam -- what do you mean by "decent movement?" I don't doubt some places exist (see Innisbrook's Copperhead Course as one example and Jupiter Hills), but in my mind "decent movement" in Florida is akin to claiming that the ant hills you often find when playing in FL are serious HILLS.

Last point -- the turf conditions in Florida accentuate the aerial game. I am fully aware that that type of grass strain is the most popular and most cost effective, however, it's something I simply don't enjoy playing from.  

John C:

I've sampled a very good share in visiting the state for over 30 years. Minus the very small listing of courses I mentioned the bulk of the state is simply an architectural wasteland. Yes, the weather and people are first rate but the golf is simply more and more and more of the same dreaded items I previously outlined.

John -- I understand you played the Forest Course at Fiddler's Elbow in NJ a short time ago. That layout would
b-a-re-l-y make the state's top 50 list but if it was transported to Florida it would be among the best 20-25 courses you could play there IMHO.

Ben D:

My point, badly communicated on my part, is that there a few noteworthy "private" (as in very private) layouts that do have some unique aspects. Are they worthy of national acclaim? No. However, they certainly raise themselves above and beyond the hash that dominates the state.

Steve TL:

I don't doubt Florida has "fine" courses but I don't go out of way to play "fine" courses -- I'd much rather play courses of serious architectural heft. Florida is dumb-down golf minus the very, very few courses of distinction.

Regarding Ocean Hammock -- it's one of the very few Florida courses that I really do like. I hear what you're saying concerning the huge tower that is sadly located near the site. It simply belongs in NJ and not the Florida coast! Nonetheless, the course is well done by Nicklaus and is often overlooked by many.

Derek:

My point is that if you line up the states with the most golf courses -- let's say 250+ and you compare the qualities of the top 50 from each of them you'd likely find that the state with the most courses (Florida) is the one with the weakest line-up you can find from an architectural perspective. The repetition in style, design and routing is simply clear to me. It may not matter to you. So be it.

Derek -- do yourself a big favor and play plenty of the newer courses that are coming on line in a number of states you mentioned. They are improving rapidly. I don't doubt for a New York minute that worthless crap exists in many locales. However, Florida is the big kahuna in that category -- it even surpasses Texas and California because the lack of topography makes for the same tired combination of houses / OB on one side with H20 flanking the other. You couple that with the velcro effects of Bermuda and the poke and hope greens you often play and the net result is a major league dud in my mind. Yes, there are quality courses in Florida but to paraphrase Tom Doak in "Confidential Guide" -- "I'll take Seminole and you can keep the other 999."

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

If we excluded golf courses within residential communities or resorts, and just look at PRIVATE CLUBS like the ones that exist in the northeast, then what happens to the equation

I think it's only fair to compare apples to apples.

[frank_D]

bobby jones said similar stuff about british links courses

many US tour pros have repeated the same on british courses

some US tour pros have deleted the british open from their schedules for reasons in essence similar to yours about florida

the point is you are, bobby jones was, an touring pros continue to be entitled to an opinion - however i repeat my previous statement - delete florida and go play elsewhere

now on the other hand if you said finding a good slice of pizza is impossible down here - i would agree 100%

[BCrosby]

Frank-D

Bobby Jones did not say "similar things" about TOC. Quite the opposite. He was TOC's biggest fan.

As to other UK links courses, I am unaware Jones made any specific criticisms of any of them by name. But I may have missed some. Can you cite the Jones critiques you reference?

I actually think the pizza in S. FLA. is pretty good. But that's in comparison with pizza in ATL.  

Bob

[John_Conley]

With 1600+ courses and what 20 really notable ones, maybe a couple of hunderd interesting ones that FL is on a percentage basis lacking a bit,don't you think?  

The number is more than 20.

Matt:

No one ever said Florida stacks up to New Jersey or New York.  Who are you arguing with?

"two hands" ?  Even for your standards that number is way too low.  Just in Palm Beach County and the Ocala area alone you have Pine Tree, Jupiter Hills, Medalist, Pine Barrens, Golden Ocala, Lake Jovita, the CC of Ocala, the Dunes at Seville, Black Diamond, and more.  Toss in others like John's Island, the Naples courses, Ocean Hammock, the Panhandle, and you get to 25 "Matt certified" quality courses with ease.  It is an enormous state.

[Matt_Ward]

John C:

You're a logical guy and a fair one. In all this bomblast let's simplify a few things -- OK?

Florida may have more than the sparse number of notable courses that redanman and I have mentioned. I'll concede the number m-a-y be a tad higher. But, let's also be a bit fair and understand that when you are talking of courses of "national prominence" I don't see where it becomes unfair to say that Florida has very, very few. For a place with 1,100 courses (likely no less than 25% have come on board in the last 15 years or so) you have very little to show for it.

I mentioned my listing of courses that would make my top 100 -- I am somewhat on the fence with World Woods (Pine Barrens) and could easily replace it with The Medalist or one other. But, the state of golf design is vastly improving AND is now in areas of the country where the topography AND design / routing blow the doors off of nearly everything you see in the Sunshine State.

John -- the land sucks -- it's that plain and simple. It's nothing more than the same forumla over and over and over again. What's the problem in admitting the obvious? I understand that people don't like their "home" state to be trashed (heaven knows that from being from Jurseeee) but from a pure architectural standard the bar for Florida golf is really low. Nuff said.

I love the beaches and the people but the golf, with the small exceptions noted, is simply a zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

P.S. I am a big fan of Black Diamond and Ocean Hammock as previously mentioned.  

[Robert Thompson]

Mr. Crosby: While Bobby Jones grew to love the Old Course, his initial impression was less than enthusiastic:

When he first played the Old Course in 1921, he did not finish the round. He got caught in the left-hand bunker at the 11th and could not get out. He picked his ball up and did not put in a card.  (from an Associated Press story...)

Though he didn't care for the course during his first go round, his opinion changed:

"The more you study it, the more you love it, and the more you love it, the more you study it. I could take everything out of my life except my experiences at St Andrews and I would still have had a rich, full life."

Not that any of this has much to do with Florida golf.... the best is pretty good, and the rest -- well at least the weather is warm. I've always enjoyed playing in Florida. And who really care whether all of the golf is terrific? Few places can say that and even fewer people can claim that all the golf courses they play are great. What does it matter if you play a round or four on a so-called "adequate" golf course when your home club is buried under snow....

Robert

[Dan Kelly]

In all this bomblast let's simplify a few things -- OK?

I don't believe in ranking golf courses -- but "bomblast" has to be one of the greatest malapropisms ever, in Florida or New Jersey or anywhere else!

[John_Conley]

...when you are talking of courses of "national prominence" I don't see where it becomes unfair to say that Florida has very, very few. For a place with 1,100 courses (likely no less than 25% have come on board in the last 15 years or so) you have very little to show for it.

I mentioned my listing of courses that would make my top 100 --

John -- the land sucks --

Matt:

Again, who are you arguing with?  We can't be arguing because we agree about much of this.  I'm just pointing out that your generalization is so wide that Akebono can run through it.

Following your logic, there's Matt's World Top 100 and everything else sucks.  This is where a decile ranking helps.  You cannot deny that the average Florida course is far better than the average course in the rest of the country.  "But Matt doesn't play average courses."  Fair enough.  Measure best-to-best and now you penalize the huge state for having quantity.  (Quantity = Access.  Try arguing that access "Sucks!")  Florida's best-to-best stacks up with any state you want to compare it to when you take courses designed after 1940.  If your benchmark is the Golden Age stuff in Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania you will forever be disappointed when you leave the Northeast to play golf in the U.S.

I think half of Florida's courses were built in the last 10-15 years (since about 1990) and it approaches three-quarters if you go back to 1980.  And much of the land is bad, but which[/b] land sucks?  Surely not anything just W and N of Orlando where you find the sand ridge and hills that contain Mountain Lake, Southern Dunes, the Diamond Players Club, El Campeon at Mission Inn, and anything from Lake Jovita to Ocala.  Surely not the sand ridge from John's Island down to Jupiter Hills.  And guess what?  Sometimes the bad site can have a great golf course like you'll find at Old Memorial.

I don't have a pro-Florida bias.  The golf is much better where I am from in Minnesota.  But when you have all of the courses that the Sunshine State has and hear that only 10 don't suck, well... I gotta point out the error in your ways.

To quote my friend Butthead:
I don't like stuff that sucks.

"Why I can't stand Florida golf?"  could have a countering response "Why I can't stand New Jersey basketball".  I say it is really bad because Rutgers is lousy and you repeat over and over that I need to look past my nose because Jersey City St. Anthony is one of the great basketball programs anywhere and I just keep dismissing it because Rutgers sucks.  There's more to Florida golf than where you played on your last visit and I'm sure you could find at least 25 courses you'd like to play.

I'll be your guide for El Campeon.  Don't think I could make it through a month of golf with ya'!  

[Matt_Ward]

John C:

I never said it's either the top 100 or hit the highway. Read what I said -- don't "spin" it to mean something else. The State of Florida is D-O-M-I-N-A-T-E-D by dullsville golf. All of the years of building have produced what? Another "theme" design at DisneyWorld?

Want to talk about land -- try the entire SE and SW portion of the state where the bulk of course development has taken place. I've already mentioned the quality layouts that have unique topography -- did you miss them John? Do the names of Black Diamond (Quarry) and Innisbrook (Copperhead) and Jupiter Hills ring a bell. John -- go back and see where I mentioned them -- no less than a few times. Let's also talk about the Panhandle -- it's a miniature version of the same boring one-dimensional land you see in the SW and SE areas.

John -- help me out with the clever design formulas you see --houses / OB on the left side with H20 on the other. Oh -- I forgot -- every once in awhile they go the other direction -- the H20 is on the right and then you get the houses on the other. Very sophisticated type stuff! Let's not forget those wonderful bermuda turf that justifies only the aerial approach to the game.

John -- you want clarity -- how bout this? The Sunshine State has only a very limited number of courses that are worthy of national acclaim (see Tom Doak's comments in "Confidential Guide" as an independent source). Then you have the upper middle layer which has it's share of quality layouts (i.e. Ocean Hammock is but one example).

John -- I'll compare any of the top states (250+ courses) with what has been brought forward since 1940 and they will simply leap beyond what you see in Florida. You need to see the vast range of quality public offerings that exist in Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, Washington, Oregon, California and a number of other states in my "neck of the woods" including New York, Maryland and Massachusetts. You even mentioned Minnesota which is also quite good in the public arena. I'm not even going to mention the Golden Age layouts as you suggested. Florida is dullsville stuff minus a very small handful of layouts. We see it differently -- that's fine. Somebody has got to play those "architectural gems" and I'm glad you, not me, is there to play them.

By all means -- knock yourself out.

[Derek_Duncan]

Matt,

At the risk of keeping alive a beaten thread, I have to say again that you're fixated too much on total numbers. And while I'm at it, maybe give the Confidential Guide referrences a time out. We get it.

I haven't played every golf course in every state -- maybe you have -- but I do know that the 250th best golf course in Colorado puts you on a nine-holer in a wheat field with 100 square foot sand greens. Better than Florida? Perhaps, but once you clear the best 50 in any state you're in the realm of mediocre architecture. You may prefer the way one mediocre looks over another, but at that point its all just opinion.

I happen to agree that Florida is riddled with mundane golf courses, but for some reason that doesn't bother me as much as it bothers you. I also believe that it's a matter of preferrence because apparently plenty of people disagree with us. Quite a few golfers in Colorado would really enjoy playing on more stereotypical Florida-like courses. I know my father and his buddies think the 15th at Riverdale Dunes -- a typical Florida hole described ad nauseum throughout this thread -- is one of the best holes around (check your Confidential Guide about that one).

You assert that golf course design is getting a little better everywhere. Your facetiousness, however, has prevented you from realizing it's true for Florida, too.

[Matt_Ward]

Derek:

The reason you don't want to hear for the upteeeeenth time the source from "Confidential Guide" is because Mr. Doak is spot on.

For the sake of argument I do agree that comparing the 250th course from state "X" and state "Y" is pointless. What I did say is that if you take states with 250+ courses and check out their top 50 designs you will see more variety and depth of the design, routing and shot values than Florida. That's what I said initially and over and over again.

Derek -- please understand that when use the reference "plenty of people" it wasn't soooooo long ago that "plenty of people" thought the earth was flat. The golf explosion in Florida is nothing more, again with few exceptions, a question of assembly line production. You also have the issue of bermuda grass which you and other pro-Florida supporters have ducked. The surface is really meant for an aerial game.

Appreciate the blow-off regarding the state of golf development in other states -- the State of Colorado is one of the leaders in good public golf offerings. If you simply stayed in the Denver area you would have a wide sampling of different layouts and topography. When you get an opportunity try Bear Dance, Murphy's Creek, Fossil Trace, to name just three. If you have not played there recently you should. Here's one fact you can't escape --the land in Florida is dullsville (minus the few ones I mentioned and several others) and you get the same tired predictable interplay of houses / OB and H20. Hello -- anybody home?

P.S. I'd be most interested in a listing of recent Florida courses that you believe are making great strides and might be able to compete for national consideration. Please help me understand -- you know how facetiousness can be.

[DPL11]

Derek,

You should know by now, if Matt Ward doesn't like a golf course, it should be removed from the earth-IMMEDIATELY! If it wasn't for a few very private exceptions, the only thing to do in Florida is sweat.  

[John_Cullum]

 I'd be most interested in a listing of recent Florida courses that you believe are making great strides and might be able to compete for national consideration. Please help me understand -- you know how facetiousness can be.

I don't appreciate what you mean when you say National Consideration, so without regard to that, here's is a list as fast as I can think and type:
TPC Sawgrass
Sawgrass GC
Timaquana
San Jose CC
Ravines
King and Bear
Amelia I- Long Point
Amelia I-Oyster Marsh  9
North Hampton
Univ of Fla
Golden Ocala
Black Diamond Ranch (54 holes?)
El Diablo
Mission Inn-el Campion
World Woods-Pine Barrens
World Woods-Rolling Oaks
Dunes at Seville
Palisades
Lake Jovita
TPC Tampa Bay
Fox Hollow
Dunedin
Belleaire
Palma Ceia
Old Memorial
Avila
Bloomingdale
USF Claw
Sara Bay
Fiddlesticks
Mountain Lakes
Lone Palm
Timacuan
New Smyrna
Indian Hills
Eagle Marsh
PGA Village-Dye
Ocean Hammock
Jupiter Hills
Medalist
Macarthur
Seminole
Old Marsh
Loblolly Pines
Pine Tree
Bay Hill
Doral – Blue
Boca Rio

Now I don't know that these meet Mr. Ward's definition of national Consideration worthiness, but I would submit that the above provide a nice variety that anyone, save maybe Mr. Ward, could find some enjoyment playing. Now I wont pretend to speak for those of you in the Blue States, but for us in the Red States, I feel this is a pretty good list to work with.

I will not deny there are over 1000 horrible courses in the Sunshine State, but fifty quality tracks off the top of my head is more than I would be able to come up with for Georgia or South Carolina. States where I lived for 40 years combined.

As to the bermuda grass complaints, I will concede that Florida greens are not pleasant June to September, but when the overseeding kicks in, they can be as good as anywhere.

The ground game is less predictable, but that's just the way it is. Certainly that is not a problem confined to Florida, it's a big world in which to tee it up.

So, that's my rant on this old nag.

Cheers,
Sarge

PS: I hear Mrs. Ward sent for some literature about The Villages.

[Derek_Duncan]

Tom Doak, Jr.,

When you say that the golf in Florida is boring because the land is flat, or that golf is driven by economic concerns, or that the architecture sucks, you're not saying anything original or unique, and it's about as comprehensive a point of view (not to mention subjective) as saying the Beatles where a mop-top boy band from Liverpool or that Picasso was a Cubist.

The point about your bermuda question is, what's the point? That it promotes the aerial game? Well the firm ground and high winds of the British Isles promote the ground game -- so what? Plenty of people don't like St. Andrews because they can't hit their lob wedges there (yeah yeah, plenty of people liked Billy Ray Cyrus too). Criticizing Florida or St. Andrews for what it isn't is a like criticizing the wine list at Chilis, or Wal-Mart because you can't by your Prada there. You don't like bermuda. Check.

Colorado (my home state) does have some wondeful public golf. So does Florida. It's different, but there is variety and there's more to chose from (or overlook).  

The Golf Club of North Hampton, Fleming Island, Ocean Hammock, Victoria Hills, the Dye Course at PGA Village, Mystic Dunes, DPC Clermont, the new holes at Rock Springs Ridge, Lake Jovita, El Diablo, Southwood, and Camp Creek were all built within the last three or four years. Each is as interesting and diverse in its own way as Murphys Creek, Bear Dance, and Fossil Trace (you could also have mentioned Devil's Thumb, Redlands Mesa, Green Valley Ranch, Red Hawk Ridge, among others. By the way, as far as Denver's diversity goes, how many other cities have the luxury of having one foot on the prairie and the other on a mountain?). And none of them possess the innocuous house/water/OB hole you're enamored with describing.

Grousing about a state's bad courses and turf conditions while recognizing only the tiny handful of courses than meet your person approval comes across as claptrapping and simplistic.

I'll take Pine Valley; you can have the other 399.

[frank_D]

Mr BCrosby
i guess i should have i) indicated the timeframe which seems to have been around 1922 to 1924 and ii) quote the reference source which is excerpts by bernard darwin on golf - [ see also response #59 from Robert Thompson on this thread who seems to have more exact data at the ready ]

my bigger point was if an expert such as jones could hate a design only later to come to love it - well maybe Mr Ward's opinion will yet change - on the other hand if you don't like something AND can avoid it - well - simply avoid it

may i suggest that like mr ward's example mcdonald's(billions served)  the numbers (rounds played on a course) should also be looked at as to formulate an opinion - keeping in mind don't expect sirloin at macdonald's and don't expect a big mac at the biltmore in miami

MY EXAMPLE would ask - to a faithful religious believer - is st patricks cathedral on fifth avenue in new york city MORE MEANINGFULLY ACCEPTABLE than a poorly designed church building in the boondocks ?

maybe i should help mr ward promote his opinion - and possibly incur less snow-bird traffic - and have these places more to myself - design flaws and all

in the past three months i have played outside FLA - in montreal (club de golf de l'ile de montreal(parkland and links) and le challenger) in upstate new york (casperkill (formerly IBM country club in poughkeepsie) as well as in FLA - tiburon and the colony in naples, colony west and hollywood beach golf club and pembroke lakes in broward county, the biltmore and kendall lakes (nationwide tour / miccosukee tournament was played here) in dade county

not ONCE did i think of one being - better/more inspiring/better dseigned architecturaly - than the other

mr ward only needs to consider how many people in this world would e-n-j-o-y a big mac without complaint

[Matt_Ward]

frank d:

I love Big Macs too -- I also understand the difference bewteen them and a real hamburger! I much prefer the latter than the former. Like I said before millions of people thought the world was flat at one time -- it didn't make them right but if course ignorance is preferred I say knock yourself out and enjoy the courses there. You won't see me holding up the parade.

Derek (anti Doak):

Where's the claptrapping and simplistic comments? Nothing like throwing personal grenades when you can't make a really convincing argument on the lack of architectural gems in Florida. When you can't make a defensible case shoot the messenger (i.e. me). How convenient and to borrow your comment -- simplistic.

Derek -- I'll send you a Hagstrom and you can visit the vast number of private, daily fee and muni courses across the USA that blow Florida out of the water design wise. I don't doubt (for the upteeeeeeeeeeeeenth time) there are courses of quality but the level of architectural sophistication is golf-lite.

Ask people this -- what state would you want to play if weather were not an option? I guarantee you Florida would not be on the short list of any sane person who has experienced a good deal of the first rate golf layouts that exist in the USA. It's buffet style golf -- dumbed down layouts that overdose the same predictable (like your oral defenses of the state) outcomes.

You mention a select number of courses in Florida and I've played a number of them. How are they much different than the rest of what you find in dullsville (i.e. The Sunshine State)?

I could give a rats ass what the average person thinks because many of these same people have not been exposed to a wide cross section of golf and truth be told they are more interested in their two-dollar nassau and whether the cart girl will have their favorite beverage.

P.S. Maybe Florida courses can figure out a way to get the alligators more involved when playing. It would help keep me awake the next time I'm there.

P.S. Plus -- Derek -- if someone actually can't stand playing The Old Course -- send them back to Florida where they can play their lob wedge to their hearts content.

Sarge:

Loved the yellow page listing of courses you sent. Ditto redanman's comments -- how many of that alphabet soup listing of courses are bulletproof?

Another thing -- re-read what I post -- don't do the Bill O'Reilly cut'n paste what you THINK I said. Florida has a very small number of courses worthy of national consideration -- I listed them -- go back and see them if you want to know what I said -- not what you think I said. Florida also has a number of courses that are above average but that are SADDLED with dullsville terrain (for the overwhelming majority) and then you have that marverlous turf that integrates so well the aerial and ground games.

P.S. Sarge -- Mrs. Ward got the literature and then made a paper airplane out of it -- it flew further than a ball bounes on the bermuda in FL.

DPL11:

Can't deny that playing Florida golf in the summer will produce plenty of sweat. I never said anything along the lines you described. There's plenty of mediocre golf in the state and only a very tiny sampling of courses worthy of attention. That's truly sad given all the $$$ that has been pumped into their development.

[John_Conley]

Matt:

We agree, but I say there are 50 courses here that pass muster and you have a "small handful" - which still has five fingers.  Are you holding courses in your palm?

That was the funniest stuff Derek ever wrote.  At least give him credit for that.  And he's right that there is little originality to bashing the flat, swampy courses in Florida.

Anyway, this is the second year in a row that we've been treated to a Matt Ward treatise on how golf down here sucks.  When I have the same experience for dining in Winter Park, I don't go back.  Brio and Houston's puzzle me, but they are packed.  I can, A) tell everyone they are dumb for eating there, or B) choose to dine elsewhere.

How the hell do you keep finding yourself in Florida?  It can't be the strip joints.  I've heard they are better in Windsor, Ontario.  Seriously, why spend time in the SE and SW of Florida for golf if you don't like the golf?  Are you going back to make sure it still sucks?

You are talking about Florida's mundane courses and I'm talking about it's pretty good ones.  Did anyone ever say an architectural tour of American golf necessitated a trip to Florida?  Hell no, so who are you arguing with?

Look me up when near O-town next time and we'll go play one of the shitty tracks you mention.  Or better yet - do what I do and go seek out one we'd like so at least the golf isn't lousy.  There are some - believe it or not - where you could enjoy the day if you enjoy playing golf.

P.S.  Office Depot Father-Son will be broadcast from the International at Champions Gate.  Please provide us with a few comments about how bad it is in places, even though most of us already know.  (Surprisingly, it has improved since opening as the unkept areas are now more playable.)

[Matt_Ward]

John C:

As a writer I go where my publishers B-E-L-I-E-V-E golf is really played. Don't blame me for their ignorance -- look at the number of people who have posted on this thread who feel similarly.

I try to convince them otherwise but thus far it seems I am like Al Pacino in Godfather III -- each time I want to get out they keep PULLING ME BACK IN.

I also have to deal with my wife who has an affinity for some of the places in the state (i.e. the Ritz-Carlton in Naples is just one example). She also absolutely loved, as I did, the accomdations at The Lodge at Ocean Hammock!

Seriously John -- I hope people understand that my comments are not meant to be mean spirited but come from a large sampling of the courses in The Sunshine State. I also have seen a good deal of the USA to put into perspective where things / courses fit when assessed together.

If people see it differently knock yourself and enjoy them all. Last point -- you see a lack of originality -- fair enough. I see a lack of original and thought provoking designs. Now, I just have to convince my publishers and wife of that.

[John_Conley]

Matt:

Now I understand.  I didn't realize it was your job that took you to Florida.  I don't have time now but can share with you some insights about "the masses" and newer golf courses.  I'm sure you know you need to be real careful when you write because your readers have far lower expectations.  

Falcon's Fire is loved by vacationers and probably the best example of the bad course you talk about.  And it is designed by Rees Jones.  You don't let others generalize about Rees and I won't let you generalize about Florida.  Much of the state is covered with bland golf, but some excellent golf can be found if you look.

Your readers aren't really interested in a winter golf vacation to Ocala, but that's where the state's best accessible golf lies.

[Matt_Ward]

John C said ...

"Falcon's Fire is loved by vacationers and probably the best example of the bad course you talk about.  And it is designed by Rees Jones.  You don't let others generalize about Rees and I won't let you generalize about Florida."

John -- I have to take you to task on Rees Jones courses -- contary to the belief of some on GCA -- I don't shill for any architect. What I have said is that people need to evaluate a number of Rees Jones courses and not just weigh in on 2-3 they have played in one area of the country. Golf architects go through periods of ups and downs and one has to weigh in with each project. I've mentioned a number of layouts that I believe are simply horrendous Rees Jones courses (i.e. the most recent being Tattersall in Pennsy). On the flip side there are a several that are excellent ones -- i.e. Olde Kinderhook (NY) --which has not been seen / played by many.

Regarding Florida -- I have played nearly all of the superior courses people talk about. There's still a number of new ones I need to see -- especially in the Naples area. I'm hoping a return visit won't be anytime soon though -- but like I said before I'm being dragged back no matter what.

Last item -- I don't doubt the qualities of golf in the Ocala area. I said before Black Diamond (Quarry) is one of my top 100 courses because it does offer so much. I also enjoyed Golden Ocala and the two layouts at World Woods. But, just keep in mind a "good" layout is still a clear notch or two beloe a course being defined as "great." Like I said before -- if weather is put aisde -- ask most people where they would want to golf, and if they know architecture, Florida would be way down on the listing IMHO. However, since my wife loves the states for other reasons I'm sure I'm going back -- kick'in and scream'in no doubt -- but going back.

[John_Conley]

Like I said before -- if weather is put aisde -- ask most people where they would want to golf, and if they know architecture, Florida would be way down on the listing IMHO.

No shit, Matt.  I didn't know that was ever debated.

Like I've said before and like two people agreed to that have contacted me - the 200th best course in Florida is better than the 200th best course in any other state. Your focus on the percentage of great courses in Florida penalizes them for having a very large denominator.

[Matt_Ward]

John C:

Does the 200th course really matter from a comparison standpoint? Life is toooooo short to worry about the shit courses that are out there. I grew up on such wonderful places.

I don't doubt Florida has a mid-tier level of mostly 3-4 rating level using the Doak scale. How many would hit the 6 level? I can't see more than a very, very small handful. For the most part the State produces "first rate" mediocre designs and given the fact you've got 1,100 courses that's one helluva of a batting average. End of story.

[SteveTL]

John makes several good points...  Spend some time here and play some courses that "informed" people suggest.  You will find them far from forgettable.  And, in fact, in many cases the ball DOES bounce!  Even on bermuda!!!  Trust me.  

The overly lush "cater to the vacationer" golf courses you have experienced do not substantiate your "Why I can't stand Florida golf" subject.  Personally, I can't stand Orlando - but 41-million people a year visit, and many of them have nothing but International Drive to define their Florida experience.  Limited indeed...

Matt...  Tell us... What are the ten best courses you HAVE experienced in Florida...?  

The fact that you lumped Washington in your list of states with even comparable golf is laughable...  There is not much fast & firm there - and a very short list of superior golf.



   

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

You need to get back to Washington State. Did you ever hear of Desert Canyon? How bout Indian Canyon -- you know the Chandler Egan design? How bout the new layouts that have come out of the blue in the immediate Seattle area.

I don't doubt that Washington State provides a bounce like you'll find in Ireland but it's better than the carpet absorbing bermuda that infects Florida golf.

Guys -- you keep barking about the middle-of-the-road stuff that is the dominant nature of the state. I said before -- tell me which courses in the state rate a 6 or better according to the Doak scale.

I'm on the room to a few meetings I have to attend -- I'll post my top ten in Florida when I return. For those itching to know I've posted some of them previously.

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