[Patrick_Mucci]

If one was to design a fairly sharp dogleg today, at what point would the elbow or bend begin ?

How does one design a dogleg that will work well for all levels of golfers, factoring in the enormous gap between the PGA Tour Pro and the average or poor golfer.

How many tees do you have to have ?

[paul cowley]

...pat..its not the distance to the turn point ,or the number of tees behind it .....to design for all levels of play the following shot distances provide the most challenge and difficulty .

[Mark_F]

Pat Mucci:

The 6th at Royal melbourne West surely fits the bill.

One drives from a selection of four (from memory) tees high up on a dune.  It's a sharp angle, around 230-254 yards depending on how much you want to cut off, but the bigger hitter can still chew off more if they are game, with the consequent penalty if they misfire.

The weaker or less game can play straight down the fairway or even edge a little to the dogleg, but you have a longer shot in.  Still plenty of room to run one in or lay up shortish if you fancy your chipping and putting skills.

My geometry isn't the best, but the bend I think is around 75 degrees.

(By the way.  Mark F is Mark Ferguson.  not Mark Fine)

[Jeff_Brauer]

The theoretical "turning point" keeps moving back.  Ross pegged it (figuratively and literally) at 200 yards, Jones at 250 yards, modern designers at the mathmatically convenient (for contractors) 800 feet/260 yards, and now, I have moved it out to 850 feet for championship/back tees.

I base this on recently seeing numerous players use the backslopes of bunkers I placed at about 265 yards just four years ago to rocket their tee shots even further, and just having placed what I thought was a "pinching bunker" (come to think of it, it vaguely was shaped like a lobster) at 275 yards, only to see construction workers easily fly it, off dirt tees and in boots.

I usually use four sets of tees (Owners hate setting that extra block for some reason) split about a mathmatically convenient for contractors 33 yards (100 feet)

My old mentor said there were only two situations where he didn't favor sharp doglegs - one was when there were a lot of trees, and the other was when there wasn't.  When you consider that short players may not make the dogleg, you can see why.  For any sharp dogleg, I will usually remove trees, and use a bunker instead to guard the corner, if need be, allowing the short players a way around.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul Cowley,

Could you explain that again ?

Jeff Brauer,

What are some of the better, sharp doglegs you've seen ?

[Forrest Richardson]

Ideally dog-legs should NOT bend at exactly the same place. Bending at just before or after the ideal tee shot (or second shot at the long hole) can be quite entertaining. If we use 800-feet or 275-yards — or whatever — we end up with a pattern. I think the "standard" comes from residential layouts where we are not designing ideally, but to fit a safety envelope suggested by lot layout.

[paul cowley]

.....pat
   if one designs a 475yd dogleg [from the back,275yds to the turn,200yds to the hole]regardless where one puts the forward tees,all levels of play still have the same second shot length in from the turn point....i guess golf being golf, thats ok,but its much easier to design for all levels on more straitaway holes where one can vary strategies around a much less 'fixed' point....if trees or houses don't dictate the turn point then this becomes less of a concern....make sense?

[Mike Hendren]

Jeff,

Shouldn't the better player be entitled to the TPaul turbo-boost if he can carry the bunker 265 yards out?  That would seem to post the ultimate risk/reward and entice the big hitter to give it a try.  IMHO the player should be rewarded for flirting with the bunker.  

Regards,

Mike

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul Cowley,

I'm starting to understand.

Today, environmental areas seem to have more of an impact
then trees or homes, and while straighter holes may provide you with more alternatives, that luxury may not exist at every site.

You seem to indicate that 275 should be the turn point from the back tees for every sharp dogleg, regardless of length, is that correct ?

If so, how do you stagger the other sets of tees, and how many do you create ?

[Forrest Richardson]

Partick -- I'm jumping in on your conversation with Paul, but wanted to comment on your "Today, environmental areas seem to have more of an impact" notation.

Not necessarily. What many years ago would not have been moved or attempted to be changed can now be "ruined" with regularity. We see this all the time as developers and so-called golf architects get rid of natural features in favor of roads, lots and an 9-out/in and 9-/out/in routing. BUT...environmental obstacles are an equalizer. In many respects they have returned golf course design (in some cases) to respecting what is there and working around it. Unfortunately we are often prevented from integrating the feature (bog, swamp, creek, rock outcropping, ruin, historic wall, etc.) into our holes.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

Perhaps, but since I designed it another way, it shook me up to see golfers playing over those bunkers easily.

Patrick,

I can't think of any great sharp doglegs.  The first course I played was Medinah 3, and the then 13th, 11th and 18th were interesting, until I went back to play with a bit of seasoning.  Palmer hated the 18th, saying it required a snap slice to play.  I wonder what will keep current doglegs from being too short for gently curved tee shots in the future?

[paul cowley]

...pat...we don't have an easy answer as to the distance from back tee to the turn point...with todays technologies its become a moving target.i think forrest and jeff would concur.
...its easier to update and lengthen an older course by adding new back tees playing to the same turn point,much harder to design for all levels on a new one....on courses currently under constrution, we are designing doglegs starting at 267 yds[members course],to 290yds[will host a PGA event]....its almost become a hole by hole decision, depending on what the ground gives you and what the course requirements are..........

[paul cowley]

...pat...we don't have an easy answer as to the distance from back tee to the turn point...with todays technologies its become a moving target.i think forrest and jeff would concur.
...its easier to update and lengthen an older course by adding new back tees playing to the same turn point,much harder to design for all levels on a new one....on courses currently under constrution, we are designing doglegs starting at 267 yds[members course],to 290yds[will host a PGA event]....its almost become a hole by hole decision, depending on what the ground gives you and what the course requirements are..........

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