[Ronald Montesano]

Runway tees getting no love?


More water than terra firma is passe?


Someone asked about the difference between The Pit and Tobacco Road. I wouldn't compare them in the least, other than to say they look like golf courses you'd find in a junkyard. Think Sanford and Son in a really good way. The Pit went from incredibly narrow to incredibly open and back, with little middle ground. It also had that cool set of forced-carry holes, early on the back nine. It also had a number of dud holes. Tobacco Road is consistently fair, even with that pitch across Lake Despair on the 14th hole. It's consistently wide and offers way more options than The Pit did. However, perhaps without The Pit, the TR founders don't have the huevos to build TR. TP broke from the Pinehurst mold in a big way, and that pried open the gate for TR, en mi opinion.

[Tony Ristola]

Runway tees getting no love?


More water than terra firma is passe?


Someone asked about the difference between The Pit and Tobacco Road. I wouldn't compare them in the least, other than to say they look like golf courses you'd find in a junkyard. Think Sanford and Son in a really good way. The Pit went from incredibly narrow to incredibly open and back, with little middle ground. It also had that cool set of forced-carry holes, early on the back nine. It also had a number of dud holes. Tobacco Road is consistently fair, even with that pitch across Lake Despair on the 14th hole. It's consistently wide and offers way more options than The Pit did. However, perhaps without The Pit, the TR founders don't have the huevos to build TR. TP broke from the Pinehurst mold in a big way, and that pried open the gate for TR, en mi opinion.

I think Tobacco Road is more reflective of Pine Valley. You see that pop up in other Strantz stuff... like the par 3 at New Caledonia that resembles the 10th at PV.


When Strantz built Tobacco Road, Pinehurst was still smothered in turf, had been for decades, and would be for many years to come. I visited twice when it was wall-to-wall green, and after one of the visits asked on this forum, if the course were built today, would it get any accolades? Would anyone even notice it?


There weren't a lot of old No.2 photos floating through the ether either when Tobacco Road was built. I recall seeing the first such photos of No.2  after the turf had been stripped away, and before the wiregrass, pine straw and weeds had naturalized the open sandy areas, and asked if this was TPC Pinehurst. The aerials (as those were the first shots I'd seen), though dramatic looked like Pete Dye had been there.

[Forrest Richardson]

Self serving: My concept for the par-2  —  c. 2001.

[BCrosby]

Tom

It might not have been original in terms of construction but perhaps it was original in concept. In other words they planned it and the Old Course basically evolved. But ignoring the originality aspect, what perhaps made it revolutionary is that it helped to usher in strategic design.

Niall

Niall gets it pretty much right. We can quibble today about how original the 4th was at Woking circa 1901, but at the time it was seen as strikingly original. So much so that the controversy over the hole convinced Tom Simpson that there was something to this golf architecture thing and was a key to his decision to become a golf architect. That hole (and other holes at Woking), together with Low's writing on gca, led an impressive group of Low's contemporaries (Colt, Fowler, MacKenzie, MacDonald, Behr) to conclude that he was the father of what we call today 'strategic golf architecture'.


A big deal, in my view.


Bob

[Jeff_Brauer]

Self serving: My concept for the par-2  —  c. 2001.

Any relation to Willie Nelson's concept of par is what I want it to be?


And more seriously, if the idea that less than 18 hole courses really catches on, i.e., if you want to solve 4.5 hour rounds of golf, build a 12 hole course and cut it to 3 hours instantly, maybe that would be a true revolution, getting away from the 18 hole standard that evolved for mysterious reasons at St. Andrews (reduce 22 to 18, but never change again?  18 is the number of shots in a whisky bottle?  Shouldn't craft beers be the new standard?)

[Garland Bayley]

...That hole (and other holes at Woking), together with Low's writing on gca, led an impressive group of Low's contemporaries (Colt, Fowler, MacKenzie, MacDonald, Behr, and Macan) to conclude that he was the father of what we call today 'strategic golf architecture'.


A big deal, in my view.
In my view too.

Bob

[Tony Ristola]

Was there a Pete Dye course that could be called revolutionary? Teeth of the Dog? Harbour Town? TPC Sawgrass? Though I believe the latter would be concept extensions of the preceding two designs.


Something that had not been seen up t that point in architecture?

[Mike Hendren]

While not revolutionary, perhaps Tom Fazio's Wild Dunes on the Isle of Palms was evolutionary .

It marked a return of seaside golf architecture in America and the use of dunes-like topography - principally at the 10th through 12th. Those holes are often skipped in any discussion which defaults to focusing on the finisher. 


It was visually striking and a must play at the time. Unfortunately it could also be blamed for the onset of photogenic architecture.  I found it quite good but there's no doubt it has been subsequently eclipsed.  It should not be forgotten.


Mike

[Jeff_Brauer]

Was there a Pete Dye course that could be called revolutionary? Teeth of the Dog? Harbour Town? TPC Sawgrass? Though I believe the latter would be concept extensions of the preceding two designs.


Something that had not been seen up t that point in architecture?

Tony, I think so, and I don't think it was either of those or any among his later courses.  His early look and play style of golf courses was radically different than the RTJ era by design.  And, unlike Cupp's geometric course, which was never emulated, most gca's took some elements of Pete's style, like pot bunkers, tie walls, long water hazards, a bit of a rugged vs. manicured look, etc. etc. etc.


That is why I nominated him, because his overall style had a lasting influence on architecture.  If we had to go with one of his early courses to satisfy your OP question, it would probably be the Golf Club, and/or maybe Harbor Town.  Meaning no disrespect to it, I always viewed TPC as almost a cartoon version of some of the ideas he developed much earlier in his career. 


As always, just my sometimes fractured humble opinion. 

[Garland Bayley]

The John Daly design in CA where every hole has a par 5 tee, so you can play the course as either a par 72, or a par 90, or I suppose any par in between.

[Tony Ristola]

Was there a Pete Dye course that could be called revolutionary? Teeth of the Dog? Harbour Town? TPC Sawgrass? Though I believe the latter would be concept extensions of the preceding two designs.


Something that had not been seen up t that point in architecture?

Tony, I think so, and I don't think it was either of those or any among his later courses.  His early look and play style of golf courses was radically different than the RTJ era by design.  And, unlike Cupp's geometric course, which was never emulated, most gca's took some elements of Pete's style, like pot bunkers, tie walls, long water hazards, a bit of a rugged vs. manicured look, etc. etc. etc.


That is why I nominated him, because his overall style had a lasting influence on architecture.  If we had to go with one of his early courses to satisfy your OP question, it would probably be the Golf Club, and/or maybe Harbor Town.  Meaning no disrespect to it, I always viewed TPC as almost a cartoon version of some of the ideas he developed much earlier in his career. 


As always, just my sometimes fractured humble opinion.

It's too bad the TPC evolved from a rugged torture track to what it is today. Though the original spiral spectator mounds looked hideous. They remind me of the Tower of Babel paintings by Hieronymus Bosch.


There's a vid online of the work done to upgrade the greens, fairways, drainage etc. of the TPC. In the vid, the superintendent talks about Pete wanting to add stuff and the Tour nixing it. With the superintendent telling Pete (hopefully recalling correctly) to think 1980.


The additions he was making... gnarly islands in bunkers etc were more in the spirit of 1980 than the sanitizing of the design that happened thereafter. I think the Norman-Price Shell's Wonderful World of Golf at the Medalist was more in spirit with the original TPC.


As for revolutionary, I think the use of waste areas to the extent he did as perhaps revolutionary. But then, Pine Valley and Pinehurst were flanked by wastes, but not of the Dye style. The use of ties and old country stuff, I don't see as revolutionary. It had been done, just not on the other side of the Atlantic.

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