[Niall C]

I'm thinking more design than novel engineering.


For example, Lido was novel for its engineering, but was a template course. NGLA precedes it.

Tony


I half expected Jeff B to respond to that comment. Do you not think the nuts and bolts element isn't part of the design ?


Niall

[archie_struthers]

 




In our area, you could certainly say Desmond Muirhead's original Stone Harbor fit the bill. It was crazy but laced with some genius for sure.


I would vote for NGLA as truly revolutionary though my knowledge is limited to one visit..

[Sean_A]

I don't have a scooby doo which club it was, but the last truly revolutionary design was probably the first proper riding course where the walker was completely ignored or it wasn't practical to make the course walkable.

Almost all of the recent advances in golf have very little to do with design quality.

Ciao

[Matt_Cohn]

Which project started the current golden age of golf course renovations and restorations?

[Jeff Schley]

I would say desert golf as prior to Desert Forest you didn't have courses built to this style in that climate. Certainly desert golf in Arizona, Palm Springs, Las Vegas, middle east countries are now fairly prevalent.

[Adam Lawrence]

I would say desert golf as prior to Desert Forest you didn't have courses built to this style in that climate. Certainly desert golf in Arizona, Palm Springs, Las Vegas, middle east countries are now fairly prevalent.

Desert golf is just about warm season grasses and irrigation though really, isn't it? I mean, I understand that in the US there is a 'desert style' of which Desert Forest was the first. But in the Middle East you might be in a desert, but you have links-style courses (Yas), open sandy style courses (Els Club) and various others. It isn't really a style as far as I can see.

[Tony Ristola]

I'm thinking more design than novel engineering.


For example, Lido was novel for its engineering, but was a template course. NGLA precedes it.

Tony


I half expected Jeff B to respond to that comment. Do you not think the nuts and bolts element isn't part of the design ?


Niall

Of course engineering is part of the design, but I was prompting ideas about the last revolutionary design concept… excluding engineering. I had my idea, but it’s interesting to hear what others come up with.


The last revolutionary engineering scheme/idea to be used could be another thread. Like Pete Dye’s capturing and recycling runoff in a closed system.

[Tony Ristola]

I would say desert golf as prior to Desert Forest you didn't have courses built to this style in that climate. Certainly desert golf in Arizona, Palm Springs, Las Vegas, middle east countries are now fairly prevalent.

Isn’t that a play on Pine Valley? In a different environment. Wasn’t Desert Forest the first to go that route?

[Tony Ristola]

I would say desert golf as prior to Desert Forest you didn't have courses built to this style in that climate. Certainly desert golf in Arizona, Palm Springs, Las Vegas, middle east countries are now fairly prevalent.

Desert golf is just about warm season grasses and irrigation though really, isn't it? I mean, I understand that in the US there is a 'desert style' of which Desert Forest was the first. But in the Middle East you might be in a desert, but you have links-style courses (Yas), open sandy style courses (Els Club) and various others. It isn't really a style as far as I can see.

Isn’t desert golf with native transitions of sand/gravel a play on Pine Valley? For similar reasons as well? At PV turf was difficult to establish a century ago. Both environments demanded irrigation to establish turf.


I recall seeing a photo of a soil profile from PV where there was a noticeable clay capping of the native sand.

[Adam Lawrence]

Sandy desert, maybe. Rocky desert, not so much I'd say.


Also there's a fundamental difference in grassing.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I'm thinking more design than novel engineering.


For example, Lido was novel for its engineering, but was a template course. NGLA precedes it.

Tony


I half expected Jeff B to respond to that comment. Do you not think the nuts and bolts element isn't part of the design ?


Niall

Yes, we all have to play our parts, LOL.

[Jeff_Brauer]

And to answer Tony's OP in a manner he would approve (I think)....two words.....

Pete Dye.


From the railcar bridges to tie walls, pot bunkers, etc., back in the late 60's I can't think of any courses that were so visually and playing different than Pete's courses.  Everyone else was pretty much going for the same look and his stood out, and influenced a generation of gca's.


Yes, railroad ties/sleepers had been used before, but IMHO, he used them differently (and far enough apart chronologically) to make them an innovation.

[Chris Mavros]

Chris, which Rolling Hills are you referring to?  My mind jumps to the old course in Fort Lauderdale where Caddyshack was filmed.

Rolling Hills in Southern California, where David McLay Kidd completely renovated the course.  I'd consider his design concepts there in how it interacts with the golfer, made to instill confidence, as opposed to the traditional structure of defending against score, a more recent revolutionary design.  I like to sing its praises and would love to see more of that style pop up.

I think there have been a lot of courses with such design characteristics, especially a century ago when playing corridors were generous.


Augusta is one such example. And that is loosely based on the Old Course.


As for the Old Course, that was "designed" in an evolutionary process. As Dr.M noted, before anyone knew anything about golf course design and in a manner which the golf was made interesting.

I think it goes beyond width.  It goes to the fairway and green contours, sideboards, structure and presentation from the tee and fairways.  The Old course is different in how it requires course knowledge and strategy, all as defensive measures.  RHCC does not have the width of Gamble or Mammoth, etc. either. 


I see enough difference with Kidd's style than past styles to mention it.  I hope we see more of it.  The shift to what I'll call player encouragement is a cool one.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

How about Cupp's " Geometric Course" at Palmetto Hall in Hilton Head?





https://discoversouthcarolina.com/articles/geometric-golf-palmetto-halls-cupp-course-was-born-in-a-computer


http://www.hiltonheadgolf.com/departments/coursereviews/palmetto-hall-plantation-cupp-course-10966.htm

[Thomas Dai]

A significant change in golf within the last 30 yrs has been the development of grass courses in the Middle East. There are now quite a number with multiple countries having one or indeed several. The first one though was the Emirates GC in Dubai so I guess you could describe that one as being somewhat revolutionary. Even though desert courses had been built elsewhere previously it was EGC Dubai that let the genie out of the bottle in terms of Middle East grass courses.
Atb

[Adam Lawrence]

A significant change in golf within the last 30 yrs has been the development of grass courses in the Middle East. There are now quite a number with multiple countries having one or indeed several. The first one though was the Emirates GC in Dubai so I guess you could describe that one as being somewhat revolutionary. Even though desert courses had been built elsewhere previously it was EGC Dubai that let the genie out of the bottle in terms of Middle East grass courses.
Atb

But it's just the same warm season grass as you get in Florida. Not desperately revolutionary really.

[Thomas Dai]

Disagree.
Atb

[Niall C]

So if we are discounting elements like engineering and agronomy is the last truly revolutionary golf design John Low and Stuart Paton's bunker at Woking ?

Niall

[Tony Ristola]

How about Cupp's " Geometric Course" at Palmetto Hall in Hilton Head?





https://discoversouthcarolina.com/articles/geometric-golf-palmetto-halls-cupp-course-was-born-in-a-computer


http://www.hiltonheadgolf.com/departments/coursereviews/palmetto-hall-plantation-cupp-course-10966.htm

Good call.


Revolutionary, but not worth repeating or stealing from. One is enough.

[Jeff Schley]

A significant change in golf within the last 30 yrs has been the development of grass courses in the Middle East. There are now quite a number with multiple countries having one or indeed several. The first one though was the Emirates GC in Dubai so I guess you could describe that one as being somewhat revolutionary. Even though desert courses had been built elsewhere previously it was EGC Dubai that let the genie out of the bottle in terms of Middle East grass courses.
Atb

But it's just the same warm season grass as you get in Florida. Not desperately revolutionary really.

Adam it is the irrigation needed for such environments that has allowed this to be cost effective. In many desert climates you have to desalinate water, which is energy intensive. There is an opportunity cost for the energy needed (which can be burning oil) to desalinate the water. Recycling using recycling sewage water mixes with the desalinated, however both require energy, which produces CO2 as well, and so goes the chain of effects. Making the golf course worth the water investment doesn't work everywhere, thus the scarcity in such climates.

Also this lends to to GCA's to limit the actual turf that needs to be irrigated in desert climates, which is a far cry from lush Florida courses which have their own surplus of rainfall. So the combination of limiting turf and water recycling/desalination has allowed desert golf to become a novelty.

[BCrosby]

So if we are discounting elements like engineering and agronomy is the last truly revolutionary golf design John Low and Stuart Paton's bunker at Woking ?

Niall

If we are trying to sort purely architectural breakthroughs, Low and Paton at Woking are your guys.


If we are trying to sort a broader range of developments, one was the importation of common Bermuda grass as cattle forage in the SE in the mid-19th century. Bermuda grass made summer golf in the SE possible.


Bob 

[Terry Lavin]

Prairie Dunes.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Perhaps the real answer to the question is that golf course architecture is by nature, evolutionary?

[Tom_Doak]

So if we are discounting elements like engineering and agronomy is the last truly revolutionary golf design John Low and Stuart Paton's bunker at Woking ?

Niall

I know that was considered revolutionary in its day, but really, how revolutionary is it to copy a feature of the 16th hole at The Old Course in exactly the same spot on a hole?

[Niall C]

Tom


It might not have been original in terms of construction but perhaps it was original in concept. In other words they planned it and the Old Course basically evolved. But ignoring the originality aspect, what perhaps made it revolutionary is that it helped to usher in strategic design.


Niall

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