[Tony Ristola]

Tobacco Road??


I wonder what the property was like prior to Strantz's arrival.  How much earth moving was required?

Tobacco Road was formed through mining.


We lost Mike Strantz way too early. It's great Ran had interviewed him here. His interview reveals they were clever dirt movers, making it look like more was done than meets the eye.


The course is a spin-off of work done previously, but in the Mike Strantz way.

[Tony Ristola]

If you're thinking pre 1920 then maybe NGLA?


Wasn't this course, more than Chicago Golf, the one MacDonald claimed was America's first great course that could be mentioned in the same breath as the greats of the UK?


Built on suitable land, but not suitable enough that it required him to hire an engineer to come up with a way to drain the low areas, thus creating manufactured golf?


Creating such a buzz that people sought out CB to replicate this quality of golf course all over the U.S. and him becoming the first "golf course architect"?

I think something came after NGLA.


NGLA was revolutionary. Taking what one believed were some of the finest holes or features and transplanting their essence.


When it was bandied about as an idea, it got the arrows typical of revolutionary ideas.

[Tony Ristola]

I don't think either are revolutionary. Wonderful, even great, but not revolutionary.Myopia is a parkland course. The concept had been done often before.Sand Hills, as great as it is, is a course in sand dunes following the land. That had been done in Scotland long, long before.

Well if that is your criteria then it would be the first courses ever built.

Perhaps, but I believe building courses inland was a revolutionary idea at the time, and also believe there was something that came after the first exceptional inland course was constructed.


Upon further review, I thought the Lido could be that revolutionary course (not the course I was thinking of upon writing the OP), except I disqualified it because its novelty is due to the fact it was an engineering marvel at the time. It's also a Template course, and that had been done at NGLA.

[Tony Ristola]

Tobacco Road??


I wonder what the property was like prior to Strantz's arrival.  How much earth moving was required?

TR came to mind for me as well.  I don't know how much dirt got moved either, but it is certainly a unique design. 


What about Streamsong using the used up quarry land?  Other than building in flood plains I''m not aware of too many high level courses that are built on otherwise abandoned property.

Streamsong used an idea that had been used before. Converting a mine or abused property for a golf course.


The scale of the offerings at Streamsong were unique, but the design/concept isn't revolutionary. As noted, Tobacco Road used it, Black Diamond used it, Painswick in the UK, The Quarry in Texas, and many others.


Which brings up another question. Which course was the first to incorporate a quarry/mine into its design? I have no idea, but would like to know the answer.

[Chris Mavros]

Chris, which Rolling Hills are you referring to?  My mind jumps to the old course in Fort Lauderdale where Caddyshack was filmed.

Rolling Hills in Southern California, where David McLay Kidd completely renovated the course.  I'd consider his design concepts there in how it interacts with the golfer, made to instill confidence, as opposed to the traditional structure of defending against score, a more recent revolutionary design.  I like to sing its praises and would love to see more of that style pop up.   

[Adam Lawrence]

Chris, which Rolling Hills are you referring to?  My mind jumps to the old course in Fort Lauderdale where Caddyshack was filmed.

Rolling Hills in Southern California, where David McLay Kidd completely renovated the course.  I'd consider his design concepts there in how it interacts with the golfer, made to instill confidence, as opposed to the traditional structure of defending against score, a more recent revolutionary design.  I like to sing its praises and would love to see more of that style pop up.

I liked Rolling Hills, but if David's golfer-friendly approach is revolutionary, then surely Gamble Sands and Guacalito de la Isla, where he did it first, are the truly revolutionary courses.

[Kyle Harris]

Um.


The Loop.


Duh.

Good point. Except TOC beat it by a few years.


Ira

TOC wasn't designed. The direction of play was an exigent of the day, not an intent of a golf architect.

[Kyle Harris]

Tobacco Road??


I wonder what the property was like prior to Strantz's arrival.  How much earth moving was required?

TR came to mind for me as well.  I don't know how much dirt got moved either, but it is certainly a unique design. 


What about Streamsong using the used up quarry land?  Other than building in flood plains I''m not aware of too many high level courses that are built on otherwise abandoned property.

Streamsong used an idea that had been used before. Converting a mine or abused property for a golf course.


The scale of the offerings at Streamsong were unique, but the design/concept isn't revolutionary. As noted, Tobacco Road used it, Black Diamond used it, Painswick in the UK, The Quarry in Texas, and many others.


Which brings up another question. Which course was the first to incorporate a quarry/mine into its design? I have no idea, but would like to know the answer.

There are a handful in the Philadelphia area from the 1900s onward.

[MCirba]

The original Aronimink course, back when it was known as the Belmont Club is the first I know that incorporated a quarry in the design.


Interestingly, one Hugh Wilson was the club's low handicapper at the bright, young age of 18.

[Sean_A]

Um.


The Loop.


Duh.

Good point. Except TOC beat it by a few years.


Ira

TOC wasn't designed. The direction of play was an exigent of the day, not an intent of a golf architect.

Somebody decided which way holes would play, where greens, tees and bunkers would be etc. That somebody may be a gaggle of somebodies, but TOC was without question designed...even if that means deciding not to alter what nature provided.


Ciao

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tony,


Good to see you on this board!


Since your OP didn't specifically mention architecture, I would go with the design of big drivers and PROV I and maybe, grooves on putter faces.

[Bruce Katona]

Bermuda grass greens.  Prior to Bermuda, many of the greens in the warmer climes were sand greens as bent grass doesn't do all that well in really hot humid summer weather. 

[Tony Ristola]

Chris, which Rolling Hills are you referring to?  My mind jumps to the old course in Fort Lauderdale where Caddyshack was filmed.

Rolling Hills in Southern California, where David McLay Kidd completely renovated the course.  I'd consider his design concepts there in how it interacts with the golfer, made to instill confidence, as opposed to the traditional structure of defending against score, a more recent revolutionary design.  I like to sing its praises and would love to see more of that style pop up.

I think there have been a lot of courses with such design characteristics, especially a century ago when playing corridors were generous.


Augusta is one such example. And that is loosely based on the Old Course.


As for the Old Course, that was "designed" in an evolutionary process. As Dr.M noted, before anyone knew anything about golf course design and in a manner which the golf was made interesting.

[Niall C]

This is quite a tough question. I'd tend to discount reversible courses as that was standard practice back in the day in order to give the course a rest, and not just at TOC. However those sorts of courses largely evolved and by the time anyone designed a course from scratch that was designed to be reversed the idea was well established and therefore not revolutionary.


Likewise inland courses. Think of Bruntsfield, Glasgow Green and Perth North Inch back in the 18th century so inland golf is hardly new, and who's to say that golf wasn't first played on an inland site before being played on the links.


If we include construction elements within "design" then I suppose New Zealand would have been revolutionary being the first courses to be in a forest. Then perhaps the first course to be totally sown (Huntercombe or Sunningdale I think ?) and Lido seems a good shout for making a course entirely from made ground.


I'm of course including novelty as part of my definition of revolutionary but I suppose you could argue anything that is a total change from the prevailing norm is revolutionary even if it is an old idea recycled. Hope that helps 


Niall[size=78%] [/size]

[Tony Ristola]

Tony,


Good to see you on this board!


Since your OP didn't specifically mention architecture, I would go with the design of big drivers and PROV I and maybe, grooves on putter faces.

 


Oy vey. Meez thinks I did allude to architecture.


Cheers Jeff. (peace sign icon)

[Tony Ristola]

This is quite a tough question. I'd tend to discount reversible courses as that was standard practice back in the day in order to give the course a rest, and not just at TOC. However those sorts of courses largely evolved and by the time anyone designed a course from scratch that was designed to be reversed the idea was well established and therefore not revolutionary.


Likewise inland courses. Think of Bruntsfield, Glasgow Green and Perth North Inch back in the 18th century so inland golf is hardly new, and who's to say that golf wasn't first played on an inland site before being played on the links.


If we include construction elements within "design" then I suppose New Zealand would have been revolutionary being the first courses to be in a forest. Then perhaps the first course to be totally sown (Huntercombe or Sunningdale I think ?) and Lido seems a good shout for making a course entirely from made ground.


I'm of course including novelty as part of my definition of revolutionary but I suppose you could argue anything that is a total change from the prevailing norm is revolutionary even if it is an old idea recycled. Hope that helps 


Niall

I'm thinking more design than novel engineering.


For example, Lido was novel for its engineering, but was a template course. NGLA precedes it.

[Tony Ristola]

If you take away "world" and replace with "US", I would suggest that Bandon Dunes was the last one.  That was unlike anything that most players here had ever seen.

The model was clear with Bandon. Links golf. Had been done before; hundreds of years ago.

[Kalen Braley]

Leading  front-runner to win "GCA Loaded question of the year".   

Good luck defining "revolutionary" in this context, much less finding an authority on what should count... or not.

But JK has been quiet lately, guess we needed some trolling. 

[Adam Lawrence]

This is quite a tough question. I'd tend to discount reversible courses as that was standard practice back in the day in order to give the course a rest, and not just at TOC. However those sorts of courses largely evolved and by the time anyone designed a course from scratch that was designed to be reversed the idea was well established and therefore not revolutionary.


Likewise inland courses. Think of Bruntsfield, Glasgow Green and Perth North Inch back in the 18th century so inland golf is hardly new, and who's to say that golf wasn't first played on an inland site before being played on the links.


If we include construction elements within "design" then I suppose New Zealand would have been revolutionary being the first courses to be in a forest. Then perhaps the first course to be totally sown (Huntercombe or Sunningdale I think ?) and Lido seems a good shout for making a course entirely from made ground.

Niall

[/size]
[/size]Sunningdale. Huntercombe was common land and hence mowed out.[size=78%]

[V. Kmetz]

In other arts and sciences, the "hows" of "what" is made is fairly important, so divorcing an engineering element from revolutionary determination is hard to apply here , and where does revolution start being evolution?... but thinking I know what is meant by the OP, I'd say these American courses lit lanterns, defied old or discovered new canon, perhaps started significant trends... in no particular order but loosely chronological:


Oakmont - the intentional tone of rigor, difficulty, even punishment, has never left the American game, and most of what may have been antiquated by modern championship standards and renovation has been compensated by the introduction of the most reputedly-frightening everyday green speeds in America.


NGLA - already covered


Pine Valley - I mean I've only been there once for a Cup, and I don't know how it felt to visit it in 1919, but at once so dazzling, wondrous and dare I say, "ridiculous" in its audacity (in a good way), that such was made to play a game. Also, while inchoate, I feel the zeitgeist of what is happening in the Philadelphia courses at the same time as PV was being birthed... I feel the communication of strategic principles from some of those developing courses...PV feels like a Beaux Arts edifice in Manhattan, a GCT or NYPL, the state of the art for the time...and for all time...at the same time.


Pebble Beach - not to praise or disdain, but simply as defining revolutionary, like PV, as bringing "spectacular" into the lexicon, I think Pebble may have (for good or for ill) influenced the trade to seek or replicate or mold the spectacular into design, whether or not your subject property was on crags and cuts on the Pacific...


Augusta National - while its grown to be an amalgamated design, I think many of the ethos traits of the then-unseen original concept remain...breadth of scale, bold green contouring, playing width, non template invocations of British holes on parkland... and perhaps most influentially/revolutionary, a conglomeration of greens near/abutting water...I don't think that had ever been so prevalent in a noted inland course, where water carry had to be risked...and as ANGC became a regular hothouse for leading architects from Year 4, of course what was found there started appearing in new Post War designs.



I'll list some more when I get a chance....

[Tony Ristola]

Leading  front-runner to win "GCA Loaded question of the year".   

Good luck defining "revolutionary" in this context, much less finding an authority on what should count... or not.

But JK has been quiet lately, guess we needed some trolling. 

Heya... it offers some interesting responses.


No trolling, and perhaps not an easy answer, as the course I believe is the last revolutionary design may have been preceded by another by 10-years.


I believe there is one last revolutionary "design". One last novel concept, and since then everything has been an amalgamation of already performed ideas.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I may have missed it, but what about TopGolf?  Not golf course design, but a concept of playing golf without ever hitting the course.  I see where NGF now monitors golf participation in both "on course" and "off course" categories.  Off course is now equal to on course, and with younger and more female demographics, may overtake "real" golf soon.


Not traditional architecture, but possibly very revolutionary.

[Tom_Doak]

Many of the old links were played backwards in the winter, but I do not believe any of them were really "designed" with that in mind - certainly no one recorded themselves as having dond it.  Tom Simpson and Walter Travis deserve credit for trying to do it deliberately.  The revolutionary part of The Loop was doing it so that the course would be switched back and forth every day - I don't know of anyplace else that did that.


Yhe original version of The Sheep Ranch - building greens designed to be played to from any direction and in any order - was maybe also revolutionary.

[Chris Mavros]

Chris, which Rolling Hills are you referring to?  My mind jumps to the old course in Fort Lauderdale where Caddyshack was filmed.

Rolling Hills in Southern California, where David McLay Kidd completely renovated the course.  I'd consider his design concepts there in how it interacts with the golfer, made to instill confidence, as opposed to the traditional structure of defending against score, a more recent revolutionary design.  I like to sing its praises and would love to see more of that style pop up.

I liked Rolling Hills, but if David's golfer-friendly approach is revolutionary, then surely Gamble Sands and Guacalito de la Isla, where he did it first, are the truly revolutionary courses.

I agree and thought about listing them, but thought I'd use RHCC as the example since I've played it and can confirm, or felt, that approach was intact.  Would like to get to those other two some day! 

[Tony Ristola]

In other arts and sciences, the "hows" of "what" is made is fairly important, so divorcing an engineering element from revolutionary determination is hard to apply here , and where does revolution start being evolution?... but thinking I know what is meant by the OP, I'd say these American courses lit lanterns, defied old or discovered new canon, perhaps started significant trends... in no particular order but loosely chronological:


Oakmont - the intentional tone of rigor, difficulty, even punishment, has never left the American game, and most of what may have been antiquated by modern championship standards and renovation has been compensated by the introduction of the most reputedly-frightening everyday green speeds in America.


NGLA - already covered


Pine Valley - I mean I've only been there once for a Cup, and I don't know how it felt to visit it in 1919, but at once so dazzling, wondrous and dare I say, "ridiculous" in its audacity (in a good way), that such was made to play a game. Also, while inchoate, I feel the zeitgeist of what is happening in the Philadelphia courses at the same time as PV was being birthed... I feel the communication of strategic principles from some of those developing courses...PV feels like a Beaux Arts edifice in Manhattan, a GCT or NYPL, the state of the art for the time...and for all time...at the same time.


Pebble Beach - not to praise or disdain, but simply as defining revolutionary, like PV, as bringing "spectacular" into the lexicon, I think Pebble may have (for good or for ill) influenced the trade to seek or replicate or mold the spectacular into design, whether or not your subject property was on crags and cuts on the Pacific...


Augusta National - while its grown to be an amalgamated design, I think many of the ethos traits of the then-unseen original concept remain...breadth of scale, bold green contouring, playing width, non template invocations of British holes on parkland... and perhaps most influentially/revolutionary, a conglomeration of greens near/abutting water...I don't think that had ever been so prevalent in a noted inland course, where water carry had to be risked...and as ANGC became a regular hothouse for leading architects from Year 4, of course what was found there started appearing in new Post War designs.



I'll list some more when I get a chance....

Was thinking Pine Valley. Course with fairways and then sandy waste surrounding pretty much every hole. But then thought Pinehurst No.2 could have preceded it. If so, that’d make the NGLA template concept most revolutionary.


The original Colt plan shows a formal bunker scheme, but grass being difficult to establish on sand back then produced a revolutionary concept.

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