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Tony Ristola

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What was golf's last revolutionary design?
« on: May 11, 2021, 12:56:30 PM »
I'm not talking about engineering, such as Pete Dye's self contained-recycling drainage system, or moving half the world to create a course as with Whistling Straits or Shadow Creek... sub-air and the like, but the last revolutionary design. Something the golf world had not seen up to that point.


I'm thinking it's a course built before 1920.
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Jim Sherma

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Re: What was golf's last revolutionary design?
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2021, 12:59:18 PM »
Could be Desert Forest as a first pass for all of the desert courses that followed.
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Tommy Williamsen

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Re: What was golf's last revolutionary design?
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2021, 01:00:38 PM »
Two come to mind: Myopia Hunt Club still has some holes that are unlike anything anywhere else and Sand Hills. SH started a revolution of sand hills courses and away clubs.
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Tony Ristola

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Re: What was golf's last revolutionary design?
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2021, 01:11:53 PM »
I don't think either are revolutionary. Wonderful, even great, but not revolutionary.


Myopia is a parkland course. The concept had been done often before.


Sand Hills, as great as it is, is a course in sand dunes following the land. That had been done in Scotland long, long before.
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Jim Sherma

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Re: What was golf's last revolutionary design?
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2021, 01:17:03 PM »
The business model of Sand Hills and it's ilk could be seen as revolutionary however.
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Tommy Williamsen

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Re: What was golf's last revolutionary design?
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2021, 01:22:49 PM »
Quote from: Tony Ristola on May 11, 2021, 01:11:53 PM
I don't think either are revolutionary. Wonderful, even great, but not revolutionary.


Myopia is a parkland course. The concept had been done often before.


Sand Hills, as great as it is, is a course in sand dunes following the land. That had been done in Scotland long, long before.


Well if that is your criteria then it would be the first courses ever built.
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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Dan_Callahan

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Re: What was golf's last revolutionary design?
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2021, 01:25:11 PM »
Wasn't Chicago Golf Club the first to use template holes? Since then, the idea of template holes has been widely utilized. Not sure if that qualifies as revolutionary as much as influential.
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Peter Flory

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Re: What was golf's last revolutionary design?
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2021, 02:16:24 PM »
If you take away "world" and replace with "US", I would suggest that Bandon Dunes was the last one.  That was unlike anything that most players here had ever seen. 
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Paul Jones

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Re: What was golf's last revolutionary design?
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2021, 02:34:26 PM »
Lookout Mtn - links (style) course on a mountain
« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 02:40:21 PM by Paul Jones »
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Ira Fishman

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Re: What was golf's last revolutionary design?
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2021, 02:47:12 PM »
Wasn't Muirfield the first links course that was not up and back and the first with clockwise and counter clockwise nines?


Ira
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Carl Rogers

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Re: What was golf's last revolutionary design?
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2021, 02:50:32 PM »
Tobacco Road??


I wonder what the property was like prior to Strantz's arrival.  How much earth moving was required?
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Mark_Fine

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Re: What was golf's last revolutionary design?
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2021, 02:53:08 PM »
Mauna Kea for sure was revolutionary!  It changed the state of golf and much much more in Hawaii. 
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MClutterbuck

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Re: What was golf's last revolutionary design?
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2021, 03:24:46 PM »
Ellerstina Golf Course by Matt Dusenberry.
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Ryan Hillenbrand

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Re: What was golf's last revolutionary design?
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2021, 04:05:24 PM »
If you're thinking pre 1920 then maybe NGLA?


Wasn't this course, more than Chicago Golf, the one MacDonald claimed was America's first great course that could be mentioned in the same breath as the greats of the UK?


Built on suitable land, but not suitable enough that it required him to hire an engineer to come up with a way to drain the low areas, thus creating manufactured golf?


Creating such a buzz that people sought out CB to replicate this quality of golf course all over the U.S. and him becoming the first "golf course architect"?
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Joe Hellrung

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Re: What was golf's last revolutionary design?
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2021, 04:17:26 PM »
Quote from: Carl Rogers on May 11, 2021, 02:50:32 PM
Tobacco Road??


I wonder what the property was like prior to Strantz's arrival.  How much earth moving was required?


TR came to mind for me as well.  I don't know how much dirt got moved either, but it is certainly a unique design. 


What about Streamsong using the used up quarry land?  Other than building in flood plains I''m not aware of too many high level courses that are built on otherwise abandoned property.
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Matt Kardash

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Re: What was golf's last revolutionary design?
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2021, 04:43:40 PM »
TPC Sawgrass
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Kyle Harris

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Re: What was golf's last revolutionary design?
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2021, 08:05:27 PM »
Um.


The Loop.


Duh.
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Edward Glidewell

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Re: What was golf's last revolutionary design?
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2021, 08:31:06 PM »
Quote from: Joe Hellrung on May 11, 2021, 04:17:26 PM
Quote from: Carl Rogers on May 11, 2021, 02:50:32 PM
Tobacco Road??


I wonder what the property was like prior to Strantz's arrival.  How much earth moving was required?


TR came to mind for me as well.  I don't know how much dirt got moved either, but it is certainly a unique design. 


What about Streamsong using the used up quarry land?  Other than building in flood plains I''m not aware of too many high level courses that are built on otherwise abandoned property.


Although I never saw it, how different is Tobacco Road from the Pit, which is NLE?


I'm assuming Tobacco Road is a better course because I don't remember the Pit getting a ton of accolades, but my understanding is that Tobacco Road is really just the Pit on steroids rather than something completely new/different.
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Ira Fishman

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Re: What was golf's last revolutionary design?
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2021, 08:41:23 PM »
Quote from: Kyle Harris on May 11, 2021, 08:05:27 PM
Um.


The Loop.


Duh.


Good point. Except TOC beat it by a few years.


Ira
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John Emerson

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Re: What was golf's last revolutionary design?
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2021, 08:59:20 PM »
Quote from: Kyle Harris on May 11, 2021, 08:05:27 PM
Um.


The Loop.


Duh.


This is the first thing that came to mind and as I scrolled down I saw you beat me to it!  This is the ONLY orginal and revolutionary design I could think of.


But if we talk about reversible being revolutionary, we can’t discount East Patomac!!!  This was THE orginal.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 09:01:24 PM by John Emerson »
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Tom Bacsanyi

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Re: What was golf's last revolutionary design?
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2021, 09:16:30 PM »
Stone Harbor with the OG Jaws hole. Pinnacle of modern design.
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John McCarthy

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Re: What was golf's last revolutionary design?
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2021, 10:16:59 PM »
None of us would be here but for Sand Hills.
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Chris Mavros

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Re: What was golf's last revolutionary design?
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2021, 11:37:52 PM »
Rolling Hills Country Club.  And before that, LA CC North. 
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Phil Burr

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Re: What was golf's last revolutionary design?
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2021, 12:51:20 AM »
Chris, which Rolling Hills are you referring to?  My mind jumps to the old course in Fort Lauderdale where Caddyshack was filmed.


"Revolutionary" is probably not the right word for the course I'm about to mention because revolutions (good ones, at least) hopefully lead to positive change and set a path for others to follow, but my mind keeps jumping to Teeth of the Dog.  Pete Dye's overall body of work can be described as revolutionary in the lasting changes it had on course appearance and professional setups.  Teeth of the Dog, prior to the construction of the new airport at La Romana, not only had the celebrated ocean holes, but it also required tee shots over the runway of an international airport at holes 12 & 18.  It's doubtful another world class course has had such a design feature but it was an unforgettable experience to watch a 727 from Miami land some 75 yards from where you waited to play and then to watch the plane backtrack the length of the runway to reach the terminal.  Is there another great course in the world where you could go from baggage claim to the first tee in 5 minutes?
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Sean_A

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Re: What was golf's last revolutionary design?
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2021, 04:04:29 AM »
Quote from: Kyle Harris on May 11, 2021, 08:05:27 PM
Um.

The Loop.

Duh.

I wouldn't say exclusively The Loop because it's a riff on an old idea. Besides, I don't think it's the first modern reversable course. But, I will say the Loop etc is part of a mini trend at looking at ways to maximise the use of land for golf with more than one way to play over the same land.

I hope the trend continues!

Ciao
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