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Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #50 on: April 12, 2021, 03:59:44 PM »
I recall a few weeks ago Tom recalling Jack telling him something to the effect of "Why play the ground game if you don't have to".

I'm curious for anyone in the know how much the ground game is attempted/played by regular members and guests?

P.S.  I did see a few successful run-up shots over the weekend when the pro got stymied in the trees.  Even Hideki hit a few low recoveries from behind 13 and 18.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #51 on: April 12, 2021, 04:18:52 PM »
I recall reading last week (I think it was Geoff Ogilvy's notes on how to play Augusta that The Fried Egg posted) about how hard it is to play bump-and-run shots at Augusta because the bounces into the green are slow due to the grain, but the greens themselves are lightning fast. That made sense to me, at least for a pro playing in a major. Then again, I can think of at least five pitch shots, just off the top of my head, that bounced before hitting the green this week. On purpose. This side of an Open, I don't know how many pro tournaments that would be true for in 2021.


I just don't think the ground game is going to ever be a pro's favored option from inside 200 yards. And I think that's ok. Elite-level golf requires removing some of the randomness that the ground introduces. I like that Augusta still dictates a bounce-up on occasion, but mostly, I like that it seems like a course where a recreational player visiting for the day can get perfectly decent results playing a ground-bound game while a group of major champions a few groups behind him can still feel fully challenged.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #52 on: April 12, 2021, 05:13:43 PM »
I recall reading last week (I think it was Geoff Ogilvy's notes on how to play Augusta that The Fried Egg posted) about how hard it is to play bump-and-run shots at Augusta because the bounces into the green are slow due to the grain, but the greens themselves are lightning fast. That made sense to me, at least for a pro playing in a major. Then again, I can think of at least five pitch shots, just off the top of my head, that bounced before hitting the green this week. On purpose. This side of an Open, I don't know how many pro tournaments that would be true for in 2021.


I just don't think the ground game is going to ever be a pro's favored option from inside 200 yards. And I think that's ok. Elite-level golf requires removing some of the randomness that the ground introduces. I like that Augusta still dictates a bounce-up on occasion, but mostly, I like that it seems like a course where a recreational player visiting for the day can get perfectly decent results playing a ground-bound game while a group of major champions a few groups behind him can still feel fully challenged.


Great analysis.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #53 on: April 12, 2021, 06:10:19 PM »
I recall reading last week (I think it was Geoff Ogilvy's notes on how to play Augusta that The Fried Egg posted) about how hard it is to play bump-and-run shots at Augusta because the bounces into the green are slow due to the grain, but the greens themselves are lightning fast. That made sense to me, at least for a pro playing in a major. Then again, I can think of at least five pitch shots, just off the top of my head, that bounced before hitting the green this week. On purpose. This side of an Open, I don't know how many pro tournaments that would be true for in 2021.


I just don't think the ground game is going to ever be a pro's favored option from inside 200 yards. And I think that's ok. Elite-level golf requires removing some of the randomness that the ground introduces. I like that Augusta still dictates a bounce-up on occasion, but mostly, I like that it seems like a course where a recreational player visiting for the day can get perfectly decent results playing a ground-bound game while a group of major champions a few groups behind him can still feel fully challenged.


Great analysis.


Winning golf is about integrating with as little of the architecture as possible.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

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Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #54 on: April 12, 2021, 06:39:34 PM »
1. Sometimes we talk about Augusta National as though it's just another golf course but it's not. At least not anymore. It's a stadium...a living one, but a stadium nonetheless. Its peers are no longer other golf courses but other hallowed athletic grounds: Wimbledon, Churchill Downs, Yankee Stadium, Old Trafford, Wembley, Lambeau Field...

I think this hits the nail on the head! When you consider the infrastructure supporting the course, from the Press Center to Berckmans Place, this is akin to any major new stadium that's been built/renovated in the past decade.


As far as you look at it that way I think it's the finest of them all. In my opinion, the only other one that has the same mix of personality, familiarity, gravitas and nostalgia is Wimbledon.



2.  The ground game? I'm in my mid 40's and have been watching the Masters since the mid 80's when I was a boy. I don't remember anyone playing the course much differently than they do today. Did Seve and Olazabal (to pick two examples) play different shots around the greens? Sure. But as long as I can remember people have been attacking the course through the air.


3. Width and trees: there's another thread going on about people playing Augusta. I haven't played it but I know at least 6 or 7 people who have and the feedback when they get back is almost universal: a) impeccable conditioning b) incredible service c) hard to lose a ball other than in the water on the back "wow, it was pretty wide open!"[size=78%] and d) the greens are diabolical[/size]


The things we ask for -- width and options -- are available on most holes except perhaps 1, 5, 7, 18. And most tell me that from the members' tees it's pretty playable but they got the shit kicked out of them on the greens.


Agreed, although 1 and 5 have plenty of width and 18 is not that narrow from the member's tees. On the other hand, 7 is very tight and the tree planting has completely obliterated all angles into that green. Same can be, and has been, said about #11. And, yes the course is very playable from the members tees and the greens are indeed treacherous if you're out of position.

I was there a few years ago for a practice round. Standing behind each tee I was shocked at the amount of room there was on almost every shot outside number 7. There is plenty of room to hit the golf ball.


One final thought: after a pretty uneven time about 15-20 years ago (reactionary "Tiger-proofing" and political missteps) the course leadership hasn't seemed to put a foot wrong in quite some time. I was remarking just the other day how well most of their moves have been received. Outside a few of us carping about how tight #7 is, their brand has never been stronger.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #55 on: April 12, 2021, 08:59:15 PM »
As the last half-dozen or so posts have noted, "the ground game" has more or less gone the way of the rotary-dial phone at the high levels of the game.

I just watched 3 golfers at the Western Intercollegiate's play the 16th hole at Pasatiempo. All three were on the fringe at the front of the 3-level green. The pin was on the middle level. No doubt most handicap golfers (like myself) would have taken a putter or 7-iron or maybe a hybrid to run the ball onto the green and up to the 2nd level. All 3 of these college golfers took a wedge and pitched the ball in the air on to the middle level. Two balls finished within 18 inches of the hole. The third ball finished less than 4 feet away.

There are no bad bounces in the air and even these guys are really good. ;)       

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #56 on: April 13, 2021, 12:22:31 AM »
Several players knocked it over #18 Green.  All played it back on the ground—some great shots.  Not a pitch in the group.
Like with most things—generalizations don’t work.

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #57 on: April 13, 2021, 02:30:22 AM »
I assume all you negative nellie's will turn down an invitation to play Augusta!!!


Cary, are you inviting me?? 8)

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #58 on: April 13, 2021, 03:07:53 AM »
Ignoring the handicap golfer for now, especially at ANGC, the ground game will always be important at the elite level for recovery shots. Keeping the fairways and greens fairly similar in terms of firmness will encourage guys to take on these shots. So far as I am concerned, recovery shots is the most entertaining aspect of watching pros. The more time the ball is rolling rather than flying the more entertaining the golf is to watch. ANGC is exceptional when it comes to balls rolling on greens. All I am saying is that it would be highly entertaining if fairways came close to matching that ideal. This year was a serious let down in that regard.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, Minehead, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #59 on: April 13, 2021, 04:41:45 AM »
Didn't Jones and Co realise pretty early on that the soil and grass types at ANGC weren't going to favour the ground game and that the TOC model wasn't going to work at ANGC? The 7th hole was designed to mimic the 18th at TOC but the hole hasn't worked out that way.
As to modern times, I saw a player on TV with what seemed like an approx 120 yd shot into the 5th. Thought to myself it would be wonderful to see him flight one in low, land it either short or just on the front of the green and trickle it up the slope to the pin. No chance. Flew it all the way. And I can't blame him for doing so. Pragmatism beats desires and aspirations when money and titles etc are on the line.
Nice to see shot choice variety for recoveries around the greens though. The most interesting part of the event.

atb

John Chilver-Stainer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #60 on: April 13, 2021, 05:04:00 AM »
It would nice to have seen a shot like this again.
Not really a roll on - more a bounce on, but none the less not played to pitch on the green
EDIT
on closer look it bounced in the green!!!) But I have seen others playing the same shot just short of the green.

Should Augusta pimp up the approach areas with lower height of cut and smooth firm surfaces to allow roll on strategy?


Louis Oosthuizen's Albatross - YouTube
« Last Edit: April 13, 2021, 05:48:14 AM by John Chilver-Stainer »

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #61 on: April 13, 2021, 05:30:11 AM »
Didn't Jones and Co realise pretty early on that the soil and grass types at ANGC weren't going to favour the ground game and that the TOC model wasn't going to work at ANGC? The 7th hole was designed to mimic the 18th at TOC but the hole hasn't worked out that way.
As to modern times, I saw a player on TV with what seemed like an approx 120 yd shot into the 5th. Thought to myself it would be wonderful to see him flight one in low, land it either short or just on the front of the green and trickle it up the slope to the pin. No chance. Flew it all the way. And I can't blame him for doing so. Pragmatism beats desires and aspirations when money and titles etc are on the line.
Nice to see shot choice variety for recoveries around the greens though. The most interesting part of the event.

atb
The course can play hard and fast, we have seen the green specifically be able to play that way.  I'm sure the sub-air systems installed help dry them out and could further firm them. I don't know if they roll the greens during the tournament like the USGA does. I like that we don't have to talk about the human manipulation (at least publicly) that comes with the US Open and all the talk of setup by Mike Davis and company. I am sure ANGC has a committee that sets up the course and we don't know their names. I'm just fine with that.
If they wanted to play fast, chop down the trees, make it more exposed to the wind and dry out the course more, and firm the greens with the sub-air system. Never happened and I wouldn't want to see it. 
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

James Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #62 on: April 14, 2021, 11:55:44 PM »
Augusta used to be the “ideal” in golf and now the ideal is a newish minimal links course by the sea. 

Jeff Spittel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #63 on: April 15, 2021, 09:36:11 AM »
I would love to see the course with the restored MacKenzie bunkers and greens, but that seems incredibly unlikely given the aesthetics they favor today. The old 16th is another major change that looks as if it would be an improvement, but as somebody said earlier, ANGC isn't about a bunch of dorks like us - it's an iconic sporting venue.
Fare and be well now, let your life proceed by its own design.

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #64 on: April 15, 2021, 10:17:27 AM »
Jeff,


Are you familiar with Alister Wokenzie?
Raynor was a hack

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #65 on: April 16, 2021, 02:50:24 AM »
Now this is cool!  Great one stop history visually for each hole.  Kudos to GD.
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/complete-changes-to-augusta-national
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #66 on: April 16, 2021, 07:55:12 PM »
Now this is cool!  Great one stop history visually for each hole.  Kudos to GD.
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/complete-changes-to-augusta-national



+1 - a valuable item for GCA interest
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #67 on: April 18, 2021, 08:12:34 AM »
Didn't Jones and Co realise pretty early on that the soil and grass types at ANGC weren't going to favour the ground game and that the TOC model wasn't going to work at ANGC? The 7th hole was designed to mimic the 18th at TOC but the hole hasn't worked out that way.
As to modern times, I saw a player on TV with what seemed like an approx 120 yd shot into the 5th. Thought to myself it would be wonderful to see him flight one in low, land it either short or just on the front of the green and trickle it up the slope to the pin. No chance. Flew it all the way. And I can't blame him for doing so. Pragmatism beats desires and aspirations when money and titles etc are on the line.
Nice to see shot choice variety for recoveries around the greens though. The most interesting part of the event.

atb
The course can play hard and fast, we have seen the green specifically be able to play that way.  I'm sure the sub-air systems installed help dry them out and could further firm them. I don't know if they roll the greens during the tournament like the USGA does. I like that we don't have to talk about the human manipulation (at least publicly) that comes with the US Open and all the talk of setup by Mike Davis and company. I am sure ANGC has a committee that sets up the course and we don't know their names. I'm just fine with that.
If they wanted to play fast, chop down the trees, make it more exposed to the wind and dry out the course more, and firm the greens with the sub-air system. Never happened and I wouldn't want to see it.


The course is unlikely to play as firm and fast as it once did while they still overseed, something they started around 1967. Jones wouldn't have factored that in when considering the site in 1930.
Bermuda can be fiery in early April if a dry early spring such as the one Augusta just experienced occurs.
I played a local semi private multiple times (on heavy farmish soil) that was very fiery masters week.(the same course was super soft during the very wet winter)
Rye Overseed just requires more water, and while it can get firm on perfect sandy soil and minimal feeding(see Palmetto this spring), ANGC has/does neither on its overseeded fairways.


The  sub-air thing is a bit over rated, especially when we're talking about fairways.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 07:45:32 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #68 on: April 06, 2023, 04:16:51 PM »
Bumping this thread in case any newbies haven’t read it or in case any previous contributor would care to re-read and/or comment what they wrote a couple of years ago.
Atb

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #69 on: April 06, 2023, 05:09:06 PM »
How many better sets of greens are there than ANGC? A lot of skeptics change their tune quick once they get on the grounds and walk all the holes.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2023, 12:17:26 AM by Tim Martin »

Keith Williams

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #70 on: April 06, 2023, 05:19:07 PM »
I feel that The Masters is the greatest sporting event, and perhaps the greatest entertainment event, in the world and the grounds upon which it is contested not only measure up, but actually enhance, the experience.


-Keith.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #71 on: April 06, 2023, 06:07:43 PM »
The amateurs don’t feel like amateurs. Logo fever cashing in. I blame Augusta for that. At least charge them lodging.

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #72 on: April 06, 2023, 06:36:11 PM »
The amateurs don’t feel like amateurs. Logo fever cashing in. I blame Augusta for that. At least charge them lodging.


And Scotty Scheffer's agent must have negotiated an exclusive with Nike
Raynor was a hack

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #73 on: April 06, 2023, 06:40:11 PM »
JK:  Not a big fan of the NIL funds the college players in any sport can earn, or is the dislike focused on golf?


The NCAA and their very arbitrary and capricious rules regarding amateurism would devolve into a thread almost as long as "Who are you guys" or "Cobbs Creek"

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #74 on: April 06, 2023, 06:43:33 PM »
JK:  Not a big fan of the NIL funds the college players in any sport can earn, or is the dislike focused on golf?


The NCAA and their very arbitrary and capricious rules regarding amateurism would devolve into a thread almost as long as "Who are you guys" or "Cobbs Creek"
Maybe


I am surprised that the usga gave an exemption from loss of amateur status for nil. I would like to know more about how that debate went.
Raynor was a hack

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