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Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« on: April 11, 2021, 05:03:30 AM »
I don't really like Augusta as much. I used too but I think it has got ugly over the years.


I understand it is a minor opinion but it has morphed in 50 years to something that I dislike more than like. A lot that I now don't like has been by the 'need' to extend the course, the design intent for many has been lost and the course plays only 'true' to those that bash it 350.


I think the bunkers are too big. I dislike the green shapes. The trees are now too tall for some corridor widths so they look disproportionate. The slopes are too steep which means balls are carted off hundreds of feet and so the skill ability is taken away from almost any golfer. There are very reduced ground options. The pine straw in circles around the trees looks very contrived. The greenside bunkering is very severe.


I think I could love it again with a bunker re-do and wispy fescue like yesteryear, some options of the ground game brought in.


Anyone with me at all or am I off my head.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2021, 05:29:07 AM »
Adrian


I'll caveat my comments up front by saying I haven't really seen any of this years play but I'd agree to an extent on a lot of the comments. The one I'd generally agree with is the comment on slopes and I guess by extension the speed of the greens. As much as I was getting fed up with Peter Alliss's commentary style he increasingly made the point about the slopes/green speeds making it all a bit mickey mouse which I have to say I agree with. I appreciate that is a tough one because that really is the Augusta trade mark, even more than the pretty flowers and bushes and all that stuff.


Not sure I'm entirely in agreement on what you say about the bunkering though. The scale doesn't bother me too much but I suppose if they grow any bigger they should just make them waste bunkers. The issue for me though is that more often than not the ball rolls into the bottom of the bunker where the player gets a level stance and great lie (relative to the one's I tend to get anyway). I'd like to see more variety but not sure how they would achieve that, different kind of sand perhaps ?


Your comment about the size/height of the trees is an interesting one I'd never thought of but I think that's one for those that have been there to comment on.


Niall

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2021, 06:32:07 AM »
I find it difficult to disagree with Adrian.
It might have done quite a bit to promote the game a few decades ago but itís now morphed into something quite different and not something Iím keen on.
A couple of GCA threads worth looking at -
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,61416.0.html
and
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67868.msg1656333.html#msg1656333
Atb

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2021, 07:03:26 AM »
ANGC is far better in person than on tv. While I agree the place is completely overboard with the aesthetics...looks like a garden rather than a course.  However, once the greens are seen, its easy to push the aesthetics to the back of your mind. I would definitely like to play the course one day, but I have no illusions that day will ever come.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Askernish, Traigh, Iona, Tobermory, Portpatrick & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2021, 07:56:00 AM »
Adrian:Regarding the trees, it's not just that they've grown taller, it's also that they planted more to make the course narrower, and now those treeshave grown.  I felt that the new plantings and the addition of the "second cut" messed up the beautiful scale of the place, but that was all 15-20 years ago.The bunkers have always looked artificial.  A few are bigger than they used to be to catch longer drives (1, 8)  but not many and I don't think any changed this past year.What seems different to me this year is the fairways - they run less.  I saw a comment from Adam Scott that he didn't need to worry as much about the ball scooting off to the right in 14 because they have been mowing the fairways higher the past few years, and I've been noticing it a lot of places.  Around the greens they seem to mow everything so that it's faster rolling away from the greens but slower trying to pitt or chip back.I am not sure there was ever any fescue anywhere within ten miles of the place.In sum, I agree with many of your comments but I think it's you that have changed, more than the course.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2021, 08:16:23 AM »
Adrian:Regarding the trees, it's not just that they've grown taller, it's also that they planted more to make the course narrower, and now those treeshave grown.  I felt that the new plantings and the addition of the "second cut" messed up the beautiful scale of the place, but that was all 15-20 years ago.The bunkers have always looked artificial.  A few are bigger than they used to be to catch longer drives (1, 8)  but not many and I don't think any changed this past year.What seems different to me this year is the fairways - they run less.  I saw a comment from Adam Scott that he didn't need to worry as much about the ball scooting off to the right in 14 because they have been mowing the fairways higher the past few years, and I've been noticing it a lot of places.  Around the greens they seem to mow everything so that it's faster rolling away from the greens but slower trying to pitt or chip back.I am not sure there was ever any fescue anywhere within ten miles of the place.In sum, I agree with many of your comments but I think it's you that have changed, more than the course.
Tom - That's a good point that I have changed more than the course. There is a lot in that.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2021, 08:26:27 AM »
I donít like televised sports anymore. Iím hoping that changes as the world gets back to normal.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2021, 08:27:10 AM »
 8)


The hole that struck me the most watching yesterday  was #5. I've been there a few times but never inside the ropes. If memory serves the tee shot is a little uphill to a plateau then downhill to the green. Please correct me if this is wrong.


That second shot seems entirely too long given the severity of the green. It seemed the second shot played shorter than the yardage but Will Z, who is long , had 240 in and Justin Rose had to hit furniture. Please tell me if this isn't way too much hole in it's present incarnation.


Think the back nine is a hoot, if easy for the the best players in the world. Lots of fun and talent needed to play it right

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2021, 08:28:42 AM »


 The slopes are too steep which means balls are carted off hundreds of feet and so the skill ability is taken away from almost any golfer.


Well I don't believe they have changed the slopes themselves, but certainly the speed of the greens makes some untenable. Like Sandy Lyle on 7 on Friday where he putted up a slope to within 5 feet of the pin to the right and the ball came all the way off the green some 50 plus feet away.  That is like Olympic Club for the US Open crazy.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2021, 08:31:31 AM »
I don't really like Augusta as much. I used too but I think it has got ugly over the years.


I understand it is a minor opinion but it has morphed in 50 years to something that I dislike more than like. A lot that I now don't like has been by the 'need' to extend the course, the design intent for many has been lost and the course plays only 'true' to those that bash it 350.


I think the bunkers are too big. I dislike the green shapes. The trees are now too tall for some corridor widths so they look disproportionate. The slopes are too steep which means balls are carted off hundreds of feet and so the skill ability is taken away from almost any golfer. There are very reduced ground options. The pine straw in circles around the trees looks very contrived. The greenside bunkering is very severe.


I think I could love it again with a bunker re-do and wispy fescue like yesteryear, some options of the ground game brought in.




Spending all that money to make the slopes steeper was sure unsustainable ::) ::)
Fescue? There was a bit of bermuda that might've been mowed less back in the day....


In seriousness, I'm with you on the pine tree circles, and there are often too many planted and crammed together.
Then you see a silly massive alley like way right of the New Forest on 11 and you think wtf.
It really does not look great on TV, but better in person.


In all fairness, vertical hazards, like the ones on 13, are the only ones making that hole relevant and imaginative anymore.
There are still a lot of interesting ways to attack that hole-I'm still amazed how few shape their tee shots and end up in the rough.


The bunkers look way better in person and are truly deep,deep hazards-and the lies aren't great or easy to spin it.


As far as playing true to 350, I don't know what 'True" is, but we saw Langer and Woosie hanging tough, and the fact that it's been lengthened and remained relevant is a tribute to ANGC and a knock on the governing bodies who fiddled while Rome burned.


To Tom's point about Adam Scott and 14(there's also a hospitality house over there now), they have reduced the second cut in a few places, notably #3 left of fway bunker nest, but 2 of the 4 fairway bunkers need to go to make that a more oft used option.


As far no ground game, there are tons of options, the pros are just so good and used to their wedges that they just don't see or use those options-pity. I would definitely bump/run many of those shots, because I lack their skill, and have a ton of fear just watching.


And Sean, we do this every year.
It IS a garden, the holes are named for the specific trees pulled form the Fruitlands nursery that the property once was.

« Last Edit: April 11, 2021, 10:00:05 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2021, 10:12:42 AM »
Hideki M.'s recovery shot from behind the 18th green yesterday was a great example of playing the ground game. :)

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2021, 12:59:38 PM »
Does it only count as a "ground option" if the ball first strikes the ground somewhere other than the putting green?
Raynor was a hack

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2021, 02:04:05 PM »
Does it only count as a "ground option" if the ball first strikes the ground somewhere other than the putting green?


I have never tried to write a definition for the ground game but that seems like a pretty good one.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2021, 03:15:06 PM »
Does it only count as a "ground option" if the ball first strikes the ground somewhere other than the putting green?


I have never tried to write a definition for the ground game but that seems like a pretty good one.


Kind of like the time/duration corollary... the more it bounces, the more of a ground game there is.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil & Tiger.

Peter Pallotta

Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2021, 03:28:45 PM »
Does it only count as a "ground option" if the ball first strikes the ground somewhere other than the putting green?
I have never tried to write a definition for the ground game but that seems like a pretty good one.
Kind of like the time/duration corollary... the more it bounces, the more of a ground game there is.
Watching Bernhard Langer coming in with hybrids and woods, I'd say the 'ground game' also has a lot to do with the greens themselves. Even on the longest Par 4s, he gave himself chances at birdie only because he knew how to use the green-ground to 'access' the pin. It's striking how much 'sense' the greens make there, ie how every contour means something real & specific.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2021, 03:39:44 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2021, 04:46:41 PM »
When they groom the pine needles in the same direction ........
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2021, 07:19:45 PM »
Adrian,

I can see your points, especially on the pine needles and hideous sugar-bowl bunkers...

But I couldn't disagree more with the greens.  Instead of building more tees and adding length to "protect par", how about a return to undulating greens that are maintained at a reasonable stimp rating to keep things interesting.

Greens like 1, 5, 13, and 14, as mysterious as they look on TV and in pictures, I'm guessing they're even more fascinating in person. I still have an ANGC practice round on my bucket list to see em in person one day...

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2021, 08:08:33 PM »
I don't really like Augusta as much. I used too but I think it has got ugly over the years.

I understand it is a minor opinion but it has morphed in 50 years to something that I dislike more than like. A lot that I now don't like has been by the 'need' to extend the course, the design intent for many has been lost and the course plays only 'true' to those that bash it 350.

I think the bunkers are too big. I dislike the green shapes. The trees are now too tall for some corridor widths so they look disproportionate. The slopes are too steep which means balls are carted off hundreds of feet and so the skill ability is taken away from almost any golfer. There are very reduced ground options. The pine straw in circles around the trees looks very contrived. The greenside bunkering is very severe.

I think I could love it again with a bunker re-do and wispy fescue like yesteryear, some options of the ground game brought in.

Spending all that money to make the slopes steeper was sure unsustainable ::) ::)
Fescue? There was a bit of bermuda that might've been mowed less back in the day....

In seriousness, I'm with you on the pine tree circles, and there are often too many planted and crammed together.
Then you see a silly massive alley like way right of the New Forest on 11 and you think wtf.
It really does not look great on TV, but better in person.

In all fairness, vertical hazards, like the ones on 13, are the only ones making that hole relevant and imaginative anymore.
There are still a lot of interesting ways to attack that hole-I'm still amazed how few shape their tee shots and end up in the rough.

The bunkers look way better in person and are truly deep,deep hazards-and the lies aren't great or easy to spin it.

As far as playing true to 350, I don't know what 'True" is, but we saw Langer and Woosie hanging tough, and the fact that it's been lengthened and remained relevant is a tribute to ANGC and a knock on the governing bodies who fiddled while Rome burned.

To Tom's point about Adam Scott and 14(there's also a hospitality house over there now), they have reduced the second cut in a few places, notably #3 left of fway bunker nest, but 2 of the 4 fairway bunkers need to go to make that a more oft used option.

As far no ground game, there are tons of options, the pros are just so good and used to their wedges that they just don't see or use those options-pity. I would definitely bump/run many of those shots, because I lack their skill, and have a ton of fear just watching.

And Sean, we do this every year.
It IS a garden, the holes are named for the specific trees pulled form the Fruitlands nursery that the property once was.

Jeff

A nursery is not a garden. But its fine if you think so, its just that you are wrong  8) In any case, I don't like the aesthetic. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Askernish, Traigh, Iona, Tobermory, Portpatrick & Cruden Bay St Olaf

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2021, 08:25:18 PM »
I think they should cut a bunch of the "Tiger Proofing" trees they planted 20 years ago, get rid of the "2nd cut", and speed up the fairways so that balls roll more offline on wayward drives.


But saying "I don't really like Augusta anymore" is silly. It's greens are still amazing and it's always a great show watching the pros navigate them. It's all personal preference but it's hard to say its not a beautiful landscape. The spots on the greens this year shows that they care less about wall-to-wall green and more about how the course plays which I think is a great first step.
H.P.S.

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2021, 08:28:26 PM »
How about some credit for creating the Asian Amateur tournament, resulting in a winner winning the Masters 10 years later?  Has anyone done more for growing the game globally?
Itís easy to criticize!  How about some well deserved praise occasionally!
« Last Edit: April 11, 2021, 08:31:09 PM by Jim Hoak »

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2021, 08:52:36 PM »
I assume all you negative nellie's will turn down an invitation to play Augusta!!!
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2021, 09:07:38 PM »
Masters is still the best major and always will be. Everyone knows the holes and risks but the players are like dice and you never know what's coming up. ;D
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2021, 09:25:45 PM »
How about some credit for creating the Asian Amateur tournament, resulting in a winner winning the Masters 10 years later?  Has anyone done more for growing the game globally?
Itís easy to criticize!  How about some well deserved praise occasionally!


Agree 1000%
H.P.S.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2021, 03:59:04 AM »
Gents

I think some of you are confusing comment on the golf course with comment on the club.

The club should get plaudits for redistributing what they get out of the Masters and while it is debateable that they have done more than the R&A/USGA etc in promoting/looking after the game they still deserve credit, however that is not what this thread is about.

Niall

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I don't really like Augusta anymore.
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2021, 05:26:21 AM »
There have been no major changes to Augus...

Oh! Sorry... wrong website.  ;D
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

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