[Tommy_Naccarato]

Name the Architect and try to guess the year it was done.

[tonyt]

I'm horrified at the thought that this is going to be a lot more recently done than what I want to hear  

If not, then I'm praying LONG TERM neglected build up from play is involved.

[RJ_Daley]

It is s dead ringer for a Bendelow course near me called Quit Qui Oc.  I say that in terms of the rolling snarly lip with flat front side and the little knobs, hollows and swales in the pre-green and surrounds area.  With the degree of slope, those greens weren't made for modern mowing.  I'd guess pre WWII.

Is it Billy Bell?

[Craig Van Egmond]

RJ,

    Of course its Billy Bell but is it Jr. or Sr? Its located in Santa Ana.

    

[Norbert P]

I counted the rings in the oldest tree.  1958.  Plans stolen from Max Behr, done by RTJ, the elder.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Great guess Dick! Tony, It's OK to breath now! Craig, did I recommend this course to you once when you were in town? ? ?

The course is Willowick and it is indeed Billy Bell Sr, in Santa Ana, California. Built in 1920, it started out as a 12 hole track, or so I have been told by the current owner, who happened to be a caddy there in his youth when it was 12 holes. It expanded to a full 18, (also done by Billy Bell.) and may have also had some mini expansions somewhere in between.

The entire reason for posting this was because of a conversation I and three others from this forum had about GOLF. One of the three has played many many places throughout this great country of ours, and he makes a point of seeing all of the new and the Great courses he can. It is truely impressive. Unfortunately, He hasn't seen one aspect of a certain type of course. At least the type pictured here. Judging from the package on the box, so-to-speak, he will NEVER ever give a course like this any thought simply because it doesn't measure-up in length, shot value, and (And this is no slam at him) prestige. The course IS in fact probably too short for his length off of the tee--6,063 yards, with the front nine--the older of the nines, being only 2,870 yards in length. The course is a par 71.

Explaining to him, "I think you are missing something here in your Golf, because here is a golf course that is a sheer joy to play. It is just a kick, even though it is flat as a board, and is pretty soft from over-watering. But looking at the features that once existed there is mind-boggling. I'm totally smitten with this course more then I am with one of his SoCal favorites--Lost Canyons. It has much more interest not because I can play good there, (Of the times I have played there, the best score I can muster on this seemingly, pushover is a 88) but more because of the possibilities, and sadly after yeasterday, the knowledge that it will never happen. The ownership just doesn't have the same type of passion for the Game as we do, and I actually wonder why they even bother spending a shilling on promoting the course in local ragazines. The course will always be full of play. It is a proverbial cash cow. They don't look at what they have, only what they don't have, meaning more play on a course that doesn't need anymore play, It's always packed. The people who frequent it, love the course and consider it their own.

Meanwhile I have slews of images of green areas lost, bunkers that have been allowed to fill in, and lips that have far evolved past the state of proper maintenance. Billy Bell Sr. doesn't cry here, because he had so many more, so many much bigger and grander designs disappear under the tracks of the developer's earthmovers. But Willowick still lives. And for that I'm totally greatful. It is here I can see what Southern California once had, and know it too was GREAT in character alone.

[Andrew_Roberts]

Tommy, I played a course just like this a week ago.  It is in Spokane WA and is named Esmerelda.  
The course measured a short 6,300 yards and par 70.  
The course was fairly wide open, with little rough cut at approx. 1 inch.  
The fun really came at trying to get close to any front pin.  
The play had to be to try and bump and run.  The course was truly fun, because of
1)The push up greens, that sloped off severly to sides.
2)Some of the steep slopes on some greens and
3)The firm and fast conditions that made it difficult to get close to certain hole locations.  
This course was a dog but it was truly fun.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Tommy,
I had the chance to play Willowwick many times when
I lived in Orange Co. in the mid and late 80's,
although I'll have to admit I didn't come away
raving about the course. The small greens were
a good challenge, but the conditions were
almost always soft. If you like Willowwick,
you'll like my new course as it is also flat,
but the pushed up greens with newly
shaved slopes will punish on off line approach.
I think the fun factor is similar to Willowick
with a little more length and a lot more
trouble due to the creek that works it
way through the course.
Don

[Allan Long]

Great shots Tommy. I grew up on a Billy Bell course, and had
the opportunity (as I'm sure you have) to play +/- 50 Bell
designs. Outside of the West coast he is hardly known. It is
too bad because he did do some good work and had
associations at some point in his career with Thomas,
Tillinghast, et. al.
Between he and his son, B.B. Jr., they had to have a hand in
more So. Cal. efforts than anyone else in their day.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Don,
What is so impressive about Willowick is not just the fun factor, but the quirky classical detail that you don't find in a lot of more modern designs. I'm speaking of a lot of the public layouts here in SoCal that were built in the 60's and on. Also, since the first time you played Willowick, how much of your golf architectural knowledge has advanced? I will be willing to be quite a bit!

This isn't the only course that offers this sort of fun and quirky nature to it. Los Amigos is another course, many here wouldn't be caught playing on, but ultimately, it too has evolved over the years. (circa 1965) The course has a lot of really interesting features to it, that at the time, just weren't evident in the age of RTJ. No longer existing, but could easily restored is a double green seperating the 12th & 17th holes. Many of the bunkers have that Donald Ross-muni feel to them, because they too have evolved. And while the course is short, too short for most, there is still tons of variety to the entire routing. i.e. a short 132 yard par 3 to a slightly elevated green which has a section of green area over the right bunker that sort of redanishly slopes to the back, after a very pronounced forward face; a short reachable for many, par 5 of some 510 yards, but the green contours proivide a myriad of problems; then you walk to the 9th, and it is a par 3 of 225 yards into the prevailing wind. It's everything you have in the bag, even for the longest of tigers.

With a slope rating of less then 110, and the yardage of 6000 yards for a par of 72, most should be abel to tear this course apart. However, I find myself constantly playing patsy to at least one or two holes on the front, and I walk away with at least one or two double bogies on the front. Then, the sportier back nine is a lesson in placing shots properly then putting. There is tons of strategy, and I'm not going to mention any names, but David Kelly.....(oooooppppsss! Sorry David! )will vouch for me how unique and fun this course is.

You see, this is what I think the Game needs. More courses exactly like this. They are a kick to play, and are even more affordable then Rustic Canyon. I can go out to Los Amigos today, after 3:30 and get 18 in for under $20.00. And that's on a weekend!

Don, there is little doubt in my mind that your course is exactly like this. Serving it's purpose, just like some of my sentimental favorites here in LALALand, and just like Andrew Robert's described track.

Slag, Tell the folks here about Orenco Woods, and how fun that 9-holer is to play! Or for that matter, Merriweather National, or Forest Hills! (Which by the way is a BBSr. and Jr. design.) What about Killarney-West? Or how about Progress Downs before John Zoellar got to it?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Allan, Dying to know which one!

Here is another. A BB Jr. course that is almost impossible to get a tee time on, let alone finish because so many play it--Los Vedes which maybe the best deal for a golf course with a multi-billion dollar view. My problem is that I don't get over that way nearly enough to go play it, and when I do, I usually sit staring at whats left of the Royal Palms!

[Allan Long]

Tommy,

South Hills C.C. Sr., did the front nine, then Jr., came along
and added the back nine a decade or so later.

Funny you should mention Los Verdes and the views of the
Royal Palms. On one of the tee boxes, I always remember
looking down to see Marineland--when it was still there.

[Tom_Doak]

Tommy,

I agree totally with your general point -- what golf needs above all are some less difficult courses with enough character to get casual golfers captivated by the game.

On my last visit to Scotland I played at Gullane: the no. 2 and 3 courses.  No. 2 was 6300 yards from the back and had many fine holes; No. 3 was 5200 yards with great greens and our host enjoyed it more than Muirfield, where he is also a member.  I couldn't think of anything in America that was remotely comparable.

[JohnV]

Tommy,  l agree totally that golf needs more short/interesting
courses for the average golfer.  There are a bunch of shorter
courses around Pittsburgh that I want to check out.

Having said that, I'm somewhat surprised at your touting Meriweather up in Oregon.
The course was always one of the longer public tracks at 6800+ yards.
Forest Hills is a little gem that I always enjoyed.  Orenco was
never one of my great favorites, but I haven't played it in at
least 10 years.  I only ever played 9 holes at Progress as the
pace of play was way too slow for me.

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