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V. Kmetz

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Re: Is “par” and/or tallying average scores good or bad for golf?
« Reply #75 on: March 02, 2021, 08:27:37 PM »

Same with 230-250 yard par 3's with a bit of trouble, or long par 4's with small greens.

they're just holes, where the only thing that gets in the way are expectations(both good and bad), and par has a lot to do with that.

Agree with this completely. Par definitely does "get in the way" of people just playing a darned golf hole. 460 yard par 4 with a tough small, well bunkered green? "This par-4 hole is 'too long' to have such a small, difficult green!!!"


Exactly... this is getting to the heart of it...purely from the GCA side... the imposition of par tends to decline a novelty or innovation from jump street... "You can't do that!" One of the reason I love the old "2 or 20" hole at Engineers... even in contemporary state, it has been a hole you remember and does the fun and art of GCA credit, shows GCA design has character, whimsy and self-regard


No one has to adopt my interior appraisal, but I look at any hole as a solution of 4... short fours, long fours, hard fours, relatively easy fours, decision fours, tepid fours, stressful fours, demanding fours, ridiculously simple fours, impossible fours, enjoyable fours...
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Mark_Fine

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Re: Is “par” and/or tallying average scores good or bad for golf?
« Reply #76 on: March 02, 2021, 08:37:34 PM »
VK,
I agree with your "fours" concept. It is very insightful and right on the mark.   But don't you think architects think the same way when they design golf holes?  I actually think they do (at least the best ones do) and this variety shows in their designs.  And isn't par to some extent the basis for it as that is at least "one" measure they might build around.  The par or measure in your case is four  :D
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 08:40:29 PM by Mark_Fine »

V. Kmetz

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Re: Is “par” and/or tallying average scores good or bad for golf?
« Reply #77 on: March 02, 2021, 10:00:28 PM »
VK,
I agree with your "fours" concept. It is very insightful and right on the mark.   But don't you think architects think the same way when they design golf holes?  I actually think they do (at least the best ones do) and this variety shows in their designs.  And isn't par to some extent the basis for it as that is at least "one" measure they might build around.  The par or measure in your case is four  :D


If it is "one" measure, I hope it is the least of those measures.  As I think all here understand, the creative siting of holes and features and greens with all manner of local and practical decisions ought to overwhelm whatever par of the hole may be "called for" And to the extent that it curtails this creative freedom in emerging design, this holding of par is a negative and a limiter... and that's one answer to Kalen, from his earlier post of "what's the rub, really?"


Another is in the reputation, the regard of treasures we already have, that go unremarked, unappreciated because of their "par" in the zeitgeist of our GCA. There are scores and scores of examples of holes that describe the issue... One is #16 WFW, most often for WF's 100 years encountered as a 450-470 yd "Par 5"...but for the last 80 years played as a "4" in WF's championship/elite hosting (including Andersons)...and now nearly tipped out at near 500 for USGA play.  I'll wager many people who have played WFW on this board don't even recall the hole, no less those who just see WF every 7-10 years on TV. And yet, it is perhaps one of Tillie's most enjoyable holes on that magnificent property.


Without detailing its interesting, tantalizing features, I will give you one telling statistic about the hole regardless of its par... and one that speaks to its equanimity as a great hole for all to play regardless of class.  It is the No. 18 HCP hole on the course, which, as you know, means that the "bogey" needs the least handicap here to tackle the "scratch"... a figure not derived from its relation to any par, but results of sampled rounds.  Whenever did you see a hole of over 460 yards that vexes the scratch and the bogey in the closest terms a great course has... ?


Don't we want more of that?  I think removing indy hole pars will speed us to that place.


***One further note, in the final round as he was just about cemented in victory, BDC cut the corner of this 25 degree dogleg left and only had 138 left in... I played WF the day after the Open and I cannot express the grotesque felling of seeing his divot and knowing the hole as I do.  But he too, only made 4 on it... just like my tired, weak slashing got me a 4; my truth goes marching on.***


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"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Ira Fishman

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Re: Is “par” and/or tallying average scores good or bad for golf?
« Reply #78 on: March 02, 2021, 10:14:36 PM »
VK,


To further your point that Par has unfortunately limited creativity/variety in design: Elie is the course that I have played that comes closest to your 4s concept. 16 Par 4s and 2 Par 3s with holes ranging from 131 to 470 yards. Not even Doak would have the courage to try to sell that to a developer.


Ira

Mark_Fine

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Re: Is “par” and/or tallying average scores good or bad for golf?
« Reply #79 on: March 02, 2021, 10:41:09 PM »
Ira,
I have only played Elie once but very much enjoyed it. Was the architect limited by par in his creativity there or did the land best set up for 16 par four holes?
As you know some architects build 18 holes that are all par threes.  I was working on one of the best in the world until Covid hit in Bermuda (Turtle Hill GC).  The Director of Golf who I was working with has since moved on and who knows what will happen next. 


VK,
I know that hole at WF West and played it many times in the past.  Do you think par was on Tillinghast's mind when he designed it?  If so, is that an example of a hole that needs a tee adjustment if possible to restore his design intent or is it fine as is regardless of what they call par? 

V. Kmetz

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Re: Is “par” and/or tallying average scores good or bad for golf?
« Reply #80 on: March 02, 2021, 10:54:56 PM »
VK,

To further your point that Par has unfortunately limited creativity/variety in design: Elie is the course that I have played that comes closest to your 4s concept. 16 Par 4s and 2 Par 3s with holes ranging from 131 to 470 yards. Not even Doak would have the courage to try to sell that to a developer.

Ira


Sounds like a fun course. I think those creative limitations are easily seen before any particular course is considered; look around us...


  • Do we see many white tee distances between 230 and 280?  Truly, consider the paucity of holes all of you play between those yardages, aren't the few you do encounter some of the most fun (I immediately think of NGLA #2, and Fenway #1, WFW #3, WFE #17)
  • Do we see anything but a "Par" 3, 4 or 5? Why not have a Par 6? or Par 7? (If you must keep par)... an 800 yard Par 7 might be fun.
  • Do we see many holes under 100 yards... under 80 yards....? There used to be a 65 yard hole at a 6100 yard course I played, and it was one of the great caps to an curious but compelling stretch of opening holes:
  • A 275 yard opener, straight, flat with no bunkers, that I never made a 2 on
  • A 310 yard gentle dogleg right with a tree in the middle of the fairway at 200 out and a wicked green.
  • A 450 yard up and over hole that had a punchbowl green at the bottom of a gentle gully
  • A 65 yard flick to a fairly big green surrounded by a scraggly thin encircling bunker.
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Peter Pallotta

Re: Is “par” and/or tallying average scores good or bad for golf?
« Reply #81 on: March 02, 2021, 10:55:18 PM »
Interesting last few posts. I've come around to the notion that, in terms of gca, the imposition of 'par' does indeed impact creativity, ie the process of creation. A short story is written differently than a novel or novella; a one chorus jazz solo develops differently than a three chorus solo. Telling a writer or a jazz musician -- beforehand -- what he *must* write or play instead of letting what wants to be written or played emerge naturally changes everything.

V. Kmetz

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Re: Is “par” and/or tallying average scores good or bad for golf?
« Reply #82 on: March 02, 2021, 11:03:44 PM »

VK,
I know that hole at WF West and played it many times in the past.  Do you think par was on Tillinghast's mind when he designed it?  If so, is that an example of a hole that needs a tee adjustment if possible to restore his design intent or is it fine as is regardless of what they call par?

I wouldn't presume to know, but can only assess the routing was taking him to a place where a longer hole was due... he was such a great architect in every sense.  I love all the ODGS and some of NLGs, but Tillie is really special when he is/was on.

It is great still, maybe better today that tech helps a larger class of golfer honestly achieve it in 2 shots; of course my entire argument is that the par has nothing to do with its greatness, though it is a members 5 and a championship 4.  It needs no re-design of any sort, except that they may have to provide or plan for what they will do when the massive tree in the left rough which dominates the left side of the green entrance is one day lost.  That monumental tree is part (just part) of what equalizes the scratch to the bogey man in determining that 18 HCP.
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

V. Kmetz

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Re: Is “par” and/or tallying average scores good or bad for golf?
« Reply #83 on: March 02, 2021, 11:32:05 PM »
If you don't want to favor one player over another, holes should come in all lengths including 280 and 490, but they shouldn't be bunched in bias toward certain lengths.  Honestly I think the lengths that are being ignored now are 170 and 370 and 500, which used to be staples of every course.


I don't know if TD is still on the thread, but I didn't want to ignore this... the variety in yardages (especially the absence of the yardage ranges I discussed in my first contribution) is one of THE defining factors for the course's giving of diverse joy. And I don't think that joy ought to be trammeled by the matching of one of three numbers to the yardage.


I'm not well travelled or up on ongoing design enough to know what yardages are not as well represented.  Why does TD (or any of you) feel that is the case, if mostly true.... Why no 170, 370 or 500...


As I think of it now, another longish "Member 5/Chmp 4" (and needs neither in its wonders) on the WF property is #2 East, a dead straight, but rumply beauty that has the most delicious considerations for using one's power to achieve the dynamic green in two, or how to allow for the challenging partial pitches  when that is not achieved and the flats afforded to the shorter strategic golfer who lays back for a third.  It is darn near a perfect 500 yards of golf that bomber can't get away with miss and gouge and the shorter higher handicap must be on point with his compensations too.  Both parties are ultimately equivocated by this amazing green, which has been discussed on these pages... (About 10 years ago in the Anderson, there were dry, heavy winds and the greens were over 12, near 13... the pin was placed in the domed center of this pastry shell and you've never seen more exacting surgical skill needed just to survive).



"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Jeff Schley

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Re: Is “par” and/or tallying average scores good or bad for golf?
« Reply #84 on: March 03, 2021, 12:27:53 AM »
To get distance variance, play the combo tees. I agree that you won't find the variance suggested by playing one set of tee boxes often, but with combo (white/blue for example) I think you can achieve more variety.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

David Ober

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Re: Is “par” and/or tallying average scores good or bad for golf?
« Reply #85 on: March 03, 2021, 12:55:37 AM »
To get distance variance, play the combo tees. I agree that you won't find the variance suggested by playing one set of tee boxes often, but with combo (white/blue for example) I think you can achieve more variety.


+2!!!

Tom_Doak

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Re: Is “par” and/or tallying average scores good or bad for golf?
« Reply #86 on: March 03, 2021, 06:32:42 AM »


Elie is the course that I have played that comes closest to your 4s concept. 16 Par 4s and 2 Par 3s with holes ranging from 131 to 470 yards. Not even Doak would have the courage to try to sell that to a developer.



I often cite Elie (and its more famous older neighbor) as an example that golfers don't really care about how many par-3 or par-5 holes there are.  Many do not even notice there are only two short holes there, or only three at Kingston Heath or Woodhall Spa.  But can you think of any modern course with less than four par-3's?

Ira Fishman

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Re: Is “par” and/or tallying average scores good or bad for golf?
« Reply #87 on: March 03, 2021, 06:52:42 AM »
Tom,


I cannot. And in my post 26, PD is the only Modern course that I have played that breaks the Convention of Par or the Conventions about Par. I am sure that there are others, but I agree with VK and some others that Par does impact architecture for the worse.


Ira
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 11:44:53 AM by Ira Fishman »

Mark_Fine

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Re: Is “par” and/or tallying average scores good or bad for golf?
« Reply #88 on: March 03, 2021, 08:03:01 AM »
Are we sure it isn’t equipment that is more the culprit than par?  Also we have to remember speed of play is a big factor as well.  Short “drivable” par fours and short par fives tend to back up play.  Could that be part of the reason we don’t see more of those? 


Some of the hole yardages that have been mentioned I happen to see ALL the time.  I just played a Gary Player course two days ago called Dolphin Head and many of the par fours are in the 330-380 range and the par fives are in the 490-520 range and the par threes vary but the best one in my mind is about 170 from the middle tee. They have lots a sets of tees so you can pick where you want. 


I have another question for you guys; if for example the middle set of tees on a course has a set of four par three holes all playing at about 160 yards but each hole offers varying tee locations from say 90 yards to 235 yards, is the lack of distance variety because of the hole designs or just because the of the same distance from the middle tee locations?  I played a course with a magazine panelist one time and he said to me “all the par threes were the same length”.  I said to him, do you realize you can go tee it up 80 yards short of this tee if you want or go behind us 30 yards and tee it back there.  He hadn’t really thought of that because he was just looking at where the tees were that day and what was on the card.  So is the architect to blame when all those other teeing options are there?  I bring this up because yardages for holes (that supposedly some feel aren’t used very often) I find exist almost everywhere (unless you are hung up on the color of tee you are playing).  Note: This is one good thing the USGA does when they take a 460 yard hole and move the tee up to 290 yards.  At least they aren't hung up on teeing locations.  I wonder if the architect cringes when they do this?  I doubt it  :D  Some will say the green wasn't designed to hold a driver.  Too bad, deal with it.  Its golf!


It was noted about par 6’s and par 7’s etc.  They exist, maybe not many, but I think that has to do with long holes can be real slogs and take up a lot more real estate.  I mentioned about a 900+ yard hole in Japan.  Sounds like fun especially for a high handicap golfer. 


We keep talking about golf architect’s creativity being limited by par, etc.  How would you like to design tennis courts or baseball fields or rugby pitches or cricket fields or ping ping tables or squash courts or bowling alleys or ice hockey rinks or horse racing tracks or ....  Golf offers some of the most varied playing fields of any sport.  Architects can and do make holes of almost every length with a infinite variety of challenges and hazards to confront the golfer.  If they thought golfers would love 45 yard holes or 850 yard holes someone would be building more of them regardless of this notion of par.  Most course owners are golfers too.  Mike Keiser thinks out of the box.  If he thought par was limiting his architect’s creativity on the properties he presents to them I think he would be the first guy to say, don’t let anything stop you from designing something great.  Golf architecture has two fixed attributes that do limit architects - you need a starting points and you need at least one hole.  The rest is up to the designer.  Just my opinion.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 08:39:21 AM by Mark_Fine »

Tim Gavrich

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Re: Is “par” and/or tallying average scores good or bad for golf?
« Reply #89 on: March 03, 2021, 11:40:42 AM »
But can you think of any modern course with less than four par-3's?
Kapalua Plantation is the only one I know of.


One odd one is the Breakers Ocean Course, which has only 3 par 3s but is on an exceedingly small piece of property that you'd think would be a great excuse for fashioning a course with 5 or 6 par 3s. Of course, it dates back to around 1900 and though it's been renovated a couple times in the last quarter-century I don't know that that makes it a "modern" course.


Re: combo tees, I'd beware of regarding them as a solution for golfers looking for variety. When I scan the scorecard of a course with combo tees listed, it's often the case that the shorter tee gets used on the longer holes and the longer tee gets used on the shorter holes, which of course yields a course with even less variety than before. I'm sure some courses do it more the opposite (i.e. correct) way, but I haven't encountered a lot of them.


Very interesting point about holes in the 170-, 370- and 500-yard range being neglected. Going to spend the rest of the day thinking about my favorite holes of those lengths...
Senior Writer, GolfPass

JESII

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Re: Is “par” and/or tallying average scores good or bad for golf?
« Reply #90 on: March 03, 2021, 11:43:15 AM »
Do not leave the fox hole Peter...there is no denying that the Par identifier matters to the player and that it is also the architects best tool if they want to use it.


This is the force that pulls every golfer to their personal edge. In the old days when Par was an aspirational round for the best players, it relied on Bogey to keep lesser players engaged. These days, lesser players remember their occasional pars for weeks and the best players take on all sorts of risk to avoid losing a stroke to par. Nobody counts in 4's, except when they're adding up their scorecard...and nobody remembers the last 4 they made on a 150 yard hole.


Now...to those in-between holes Tom laments not building. All I can ask is, why not?




Seeing Tim Gavrich just posting...agree 100% on the Combo Tees. They seem to be anti-variety...

Mark_Fine

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Re: Is “par” and/or tallying average scores good or bad for golf?
« Reply #91 on: March 03, 2021, 12:11:15 PM »
Jim and Tim,
Surprised about your comment on the combo tees being anti variety.  We often play a game where we rotate taking turns selecting which tees we will play from hole to hole which is basically what combo tees are (mixing it up).  By the way, we don’t change the par when someone selects to play a 530 yard par five from the 410 yard tee markers.  It is fun to see the added pressure when you have a match going with $20 Eagles and $5 birdies,... 


Correct me if I am wrong but when most architects are designing golf holes, aren’t they thinking about how they will be played by different golfers?  Isn’t that often how and where many hazards get placed and or located.  Take a blank canvas like C&C had at Talking Stick.  Basically just flat desert.  How did they decide what to build?  I am willing to bet they thought about who was going to play there and how the holes they designed would be played.  That is all par is.  It is a cumulative assessment of how a certain level of golfer will play a hole.  I think the reason there are more par four holes is many architects think they are the best kind of holes to build.  Par threes are good too but often fill gaps.  And par fives are tough to build and to make interesting for a wide range of golfers.  The longer the hole the tougher to design which is also why we don’t see more par 6s and par 7s.  They also take up more real estate.  I would love to talk to an architect who could care less how a hole is played or designs a hole without any regard to how it might or will be played.  This is where par or that expected score comes into play.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 12:14:36 PM by Mark_Fine »

JESII

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Re: Is “par” and/or tallying average scores good or bad for golf?
« Reply #92 on: March 03, 2021, 12:23:20 PM »
Mark - Tim referenced the Combo tees on scorecards developed by someone (the Pro or the Golf Committee). The ones I have seen do what Tim said.


Your suggestion is good, and a fun way to play on occasion and it essentially emulates the courses that have no tee markers (or maybe those courses emulate this type of play).


Along these lines, there's a rumor that when Jerry Kelly moved to Florida to pursue a career as a professional golfer, he was a long way from the player that made nearly $40M on Tour. Bill Davis apparently told him to play the very front tees every round until he was comfortable making 9 birdies a round...then move back a set and repeat...and do so until he got back to the back tees. I believe Kelly referenced this as the primary reason he became a successful player on Tour.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Is “par” and/or tallying average scores good or bad for golf?
« Reply #93 on: March 03, 2021, 01:00:01 PM »
Jim - neat story. We all remember as kids being told by teachers that if we cheated on a test we were 'only cheating ourselves'. None of us could ever really understand what that meant. But golfers know. I think that, in terms of the game, the concept of par is older than Adam. If we try to fudge it (by cheating) or ignore  it, we're only cheating ourselves out of one of golf's great pleasures. In terms of architecture, however, I think the concept of par works in the completely opposite way -- ie it cheats the designer out of the complete freedom to create a golf hole in all its potential glory. As per my last analogy: if you tell a musician beforehand that he only has 1 minute for his solo instead of 2 or 3 or 10, he immediately -- if unconsciously -- starts restricting himself. Neither he nor we will ever know what he might have produced without that 'pre existing condition'. It might still have been a 1 minute solo, but if so it would be that naturally, not artificially.

« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 01:10:08 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Mark_Fine

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Re: Is “par” and/or tallying average scores good or bad for golf?
« Reply #94 on: March 03, 2021, 01:23:27 PM »
Jim,
Great idea about playing the shorter tees.  I do it from time to time and it is fun.


Peter,
Using my Talking Stick example of a blank canvas like C&C had to work with.  How did par hinder them and their design?  I realize 18 holes is a constraint (we don't see too many 15 hole courses) but par is just par.  Let me ask you this, how was C&C constrained when they designed and built the 13 hole Preserve course at Bandon Dunes? 

JESII

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Re: Is “par” and/or tallying average scores good or bad for golf?
« Reply #95 on: March 03, 2021, 01:25:30 PM »
Peter,


Sure...it starts with the basic convention of the number of holes to play. Add in the desire to compete across the fields and golf, for the architect is wholly different than music, for the musician.


The instances where an architect can build a course and then hope someone will use it are so few that they illustrate the difference. It would seem to me (although you'll know exponentially better) that the majority of songs are created and then found to be viable or not. "Viable" could mean marketable...released...or listened to.




This thread seems to want to go down the road that if an architect were given 100% free reign over a project/property they would build something substantially different than what we see in their other courses and I flat out don't believe that. It's a fantasy.


What would be the greatest example of freedom we've yet seen in GCA? Wolf Point? Shadow Creek? Sand Hills? Pine Valley? Sheep Ranch? TOC?  All are widely praised, but are certainly not transformative in the context of liberating us from convention. Would they be worse or better if the architect did not feel constrained by the notion of one, two or three shot holes? I doubt it and truly hope not. I assume these are among the highest expressions of the art.


Mark_Fine

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Re: Is “par” and/or tallying average scores good or bad for golf?
« Reply #96 on: March 03, 2021, 01:43:09 PM »
Jim,
Well stated   :D

Peter Pallotta

Re: Is “par” and/or tallying average scores good or bad for golf?
« Reply #97 on: March 03, 2021, 01:44:40 PM »
Jim, Mark - you raise a key point. All I can do (in answer) is to make myself clearer: I'd be the first to say that all architects follow/honour a clear set of design 'conventions', and always have -- it's what makes the game the game and ensures that golf courses serve as golf courses. The art-craft of gca has all manner of restrictions, both external and self imposed. The music/writing analogies are not ideal ones, or even very good ones. But they are meant to raise this notion: that the concept of par is *one more* restriction, and that if an architect stands on a mound of dirt and looks out at another mound of dirt 220 yards away and says 'I need a Par 3 hole here', that sentiment will 'cascade' into a whole series of choices that might well have been otherwise. We'll never know.
 
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 01:46:20 PM by Peter Pallotta »

V. Kmetz

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Re: Is “par” and/or tallying average scores good or bad for golf?
« Reply #98 on: March 03, 2021, 01:51:24 PM »
Jim - neat story. We all remember as kids being told by teachers that if we cheated on a test we were 'only cheating ourselves'. None of us could ever really understand what that meant. But golfers know. I think that, in terms of the game, the concept of par is older than Adam. If we try to fudge it (by cheating) or ignore  it, we're only cheating ourselves out of one of the great pleasures of the game. In terms of architecture, however, I think the concept of par works in the completely opposite way -- ie it cheats the designer out of the complete freedom to create a golf hole, any and all golf holes, in all its potential glory. As per my last analogy: if you tell a musician beforehand that he only has 1 minute for his solo instead of 2 or 3 or 10, he immediately -- if unconsciously -- starts restricting himself. Neither he nor we will ever know what he might have produced without that 'pre existing condition'. It might still have been a 1 minute solo, but if so it would be that naturally, not artificially.

I think that analogy is pretty close, but how it's influencing "current/immediate future" design is only one part of the impact; I think it also influences our "regard" of design already there (almost the entire de facto  mission statement of this board and our interest in it)... I think some really fine, fine holes on very fine fine courses are ignored, not modeled, not appreciated because of that par assignment.


I do want to remark about Jim's last post, now that I see it, in that I see he used the language of "one shot, two shot and three shot holes" which is crib for "arriving on the green" as opposed to 3, 4, 5 Par, which is the ultimate score one will/ought to achieve on the hole... evenso, that doesn't have to go away from an architect's intent as he or she plans for the range of golfers that will experience the course... In my scheme, a 600 yard hole, without a par assignment is still designed and mostly played as a "three shot" hole; it simply means that it is a difficult and long "4," probably the most difficult four on the entire course, but balanced in its "difficulty" by other shorter holes, like a 110 yard hazardless hole, that might be the easiest 4 on the course...with all the other holes, we stand to obtain a diverse experience across play... doesn't mean we will, just means we might...this round...or the next... or for the next guy who plays.

I wish to make some responses to Mark and other interim posts in light of what's been already said and proposed...about slow play considerations...about combo/multi tees...about design intents... but I've already used enough thread oxygen to get out my own point.  But unless some feels its valuable to continue publicly, I'll let you message me, and otherwise end with this general statement.

I think removing/de-coupling an individual hole par is something "easy" and lo-disruption for breathing life into the challenges of contemporary GCA, both building and assessing it critically.  In design and building, it may lead to greater variety and innovation in the types of holes we encounter and what recreational joys it offers to the main tackles of the sport. In assessment, it may help us realize some fundamental things about what makes a golf hole "worthy" no matter what it's yardage or particular features. (I'm also searching for that Clement Greenberg "fundamental" of what something/art is)

I don't offer it as a cure-all nor something that has to be adopted with fascist adherence; we can still locally (and on TV) keep the familiar adjuncts/language sense of a hole's par and that holes place in a scheme of 18. 

I think the basics of golf design and our historic experience cast 4 as a competent (not excelling or matched to a scratch standard, just competent) "par" score for any hole and 72 as a competent, skillful score for the navigation for most any 18 hole course.  I've put those two observations to anecdotal and physical experience tests and they can stand as true.... This makes me say this interim closing piece:

That While Individual Hole Par May Make a Difference to How ONE's think about OWN fortune; it is inanimate and voiceless as to whether or not the hole, the architecture, is a good hole, soundly designed, fun, memorable, challenging and consensus-gathering among cognoscenti.  All of the great holes and the courses they appear on, which we discuss, are impervious to what their own Par is... 10 at Riviera is not better or worse because it's a 3, 4, 5, 6 on the card; it is a good hole, period... so it is for thousands of holes hi or lo.
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is “par” and/or tallying average scores good or bad for golf?
« Reply #99 on: March 03, 2021, 03:00:27 PM »
VK,
Great post and thanks for taking the time.  Like many things in GCA, there is sometimes no right answer.


I do want to reference your last line about #10 at Riviera.  It is one of my favorite holes in golf and have been fortunate to play it several times.  As you said it is a good (I think great) hole regardless of the par it is given and as you said it not better or worse for it.  But I am also convinced that when Thomas built that hole he knew that some golfers would play it different ways and treat it as a par 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 and I don't think he cared.  I also don't believe the concept of par hindered what he designed.  Do you? 

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