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Sven Nilsen

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Re: Dean Knuth's piece on William Watson now posted under IMO
« Reply #50 on: February 18, 2021, 11:40:30 AM »
Hollywood Country Club - Hollywood, CA 1919, 18 holes and added 9 holes in 1921


Watson definitely added 9 holes to the project in 1921, and reworked the existing 9 holes at that time.  I have not seen anything linking Watson to the initial work in 1919, although reports indicated the involvement of a number of professionals and architects.
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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Dean Knuth's piece on William Watson now posted under IMO
« Reply #51 on: February 18, 2021, 11:43:01 AM »
Olympia Fields CC #3 - Olympia Fields, IL 1920 (w/Bendelow) (work no longer exists)

The third course here was reported as being all Bendelow.  All of it has been lost to development and the construction of the driving range at the club.


It wouldn't be a surprise if Watson collaborated in some way on the design of #3.  They did so on at least one of the other courses.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2021, 12:01:49 PM by Sven Nilsen »
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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Dean Knuth's piece on William Watson now posted under IMO
« Reply #52 on: February 18, 2021, 01:38:18 PM »
Colorado Springs GC - Denver, CO 1921 (r 1927)

This was an existing course when Watson remodeled it an expanded it from 16 to 18 holes in 1919.  He returned in 1927 for further work.

Nov. 6, 1919 Spokane Chronicle -

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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Dean Knuth's piece on William Watson now posted under IMO
« Reply #53 on: February 18, 2021, 01:41:05 PM »
Beverly Terrace GC - Oakland, CA 1921 (a municipal nine holes 20 minutes from the city that did not last past the Depression)

There is no record of this course ever having been completed or opened.
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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Dean Knuth's piece on William Watson now posted under IMO
« Reply #54 on: February 18, 2021, 01:45:49 PM »
Rio Rosarito Golf & Field club, 1921, Rosarito, Baja, Mexico (now Real Del Mar)


There is no evidence this course was ever built.  Real Del Mar is a completely different course that was built in the 1970's.
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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Dean Knuth's piece on William Watson now posted under IMO
« Reply #55 on: February 18, 2021, 01:55:33 PM »
Encinal G&CC - Alameda, CA 1922 (San Francisco Call, 12 May 1922, describes in depth that Watson, not Lock designed the course with Jack McCloud as his construction superintendent)

Here's the May 12, 1922 article referenced above -





Watson did replace Lock as the architect for the project.  Later reports note that Jack Mayo replaced McLeod as construction supervisor.

July 29, 1922 Oakland Tribune -



Aug. 1, 1922 San Francisco Call -

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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Dean Knuth's piece on William Watson now posted under IMO
« Reply #56 on: February 18, 2021, 02:01:31 PM »
Rocky Mountain CC, Denver, CA - 1922

This is one where I'd like to see confirmation of Watson's involvement.
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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Dean Knuth's piece on William Watson now posted under IMO
« Reply #57 on: February 18, 2021, 02:16:31 PM »
Clover Field Golf Course - Santa Monica, CA 1923 (First laid out by Watson, fully opened in 1928 and George Merritt then was credited).  Name changed to Santa Monica GC.

I have not seen anything that links Watson to the project.

Here are the two articles discussing Merritt's involvement.

April 9, 1927 Los Angeles Times -



July 24, 1927 Los Angeles Times -

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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Dean Knuth's piece on William Watson now posted under IMO
« Reply #58 on: February 18, 2021, 02:19:52 PM »
Turlock CC - Turlock, CA 1924


I have not seen anything linking Watson to Turlock.  The article below notes the course was to be laid out by Ian McDonald.



Aug. 6, 1923 Modesto Evening News -



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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Dean Knuth's piece on William Watson now posted under IMO
« Reply #59 on: February 18, 2021, 02:35:57 PM »
Castlewood Country Club - Pleasanton, CA 1925 (first course, opened Oct. 17, 1926 according to Livermore Journal with grassed greens.  Later (r) by Billy Bell Sr.)

There was one initial report of Watson being involved with the project, but every subsequent discussion notes this as a Billy Bell course with George Thomas in an advisory capacity.


July 26, 1925 Oakland Tribune -





Sept. 28, 1925 The Daily Notes -





Oct. 30, 1926 Santa Ana Register -





March 21, 1927 Oakland Tribune -





July 8, 1927 San Francisco Examiner -


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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Dean Knuth's piece on William Watson now posted under IMO
« Reply #60 on: February 18, 2021, 02:49:01 PM »
Multnomah GC - Portland, OR 1925 (Routing by Watson, Credited to Willie Locke)

I have not seen anything linking Watson to Multnomah.

There is plenty of evidence for Locke.

March 28, 1924 The News Review -



Locke's Plan -



Aerial of the course -

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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Dean Knuth's piece on William Watson now posted under IMO
« Reply #61 on: February 18, 2021, 02:51:10 PM »
San Gorgonio CC - Beaumont, CA 1926 (9 hole)

I have not seen any evidence of Watson working here.  As a 1,700 yard 9 holer when built, it doesn't really match his m.o.
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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Dean Knuth's piece on William Watson now posted under IMO
« Reply #62 on: February 18, 2021, 02:54:13 PM »
Shawnee Country Club - Lima, OH 1927 (r) of Bendelow 1909 course


I haven't seen anything confirming Watson's work here.  The course was extended from 9 to 18 holes around 1922.
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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Dean Knuth's piece on William Watson now posted under IMO
« Reply #63 on: February 18, 2021, 02:56:19 PM »
South Shore GC - Momence, IL 1927

Not sure if this is a confused reference to Minne-Monesse (where Watson's activity has been confirmed) or a separate project.  In either case, I haven't seen anything linking Watson to a project by this name.
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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Dean Knuth's piece on William Watson now posted under IMO
« Reply #64 on: February 18, 2021, 02:57:37 PM »
Momence Links - Momence, IL 1928

Another Momence project with no evidence that seems like a reference to a different project.
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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Dean Knuth's piece on William Watson now posted under IMO
« Reply #65 on: February 18, 2021, 02:58:58 PM »
Sonoma GC - Sonoma, CA 1928 (w/ Whiting)

Whiting's involvement here has been confirmed.  I haven't seen anything that notes he worked with Watson on this project.
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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Dean Knuth's piece on William Watson now posted under IMO
« Reply #66 on: February 18, 2021, 03:25:33 PM »
A few additions to the list:


Northland CC in 1920
Duluth Herald, Sept. 10, 1920


An update to Ingleside Club in Phoenix in 1927 and [size=78%]Portrero.[/size]


Sept. 27, 1927 Arizona Republic -



Biona.

August 26, 1923 Los Angeles Times -



Coarsegold, CA.May 24, 1924 Visalia Daily Times -
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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Garland Bayley

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Re: Dean Knuth's piece on William Watson now posted under IMO
« Reply #67 on: February 19, 2021, 12:54:15 AM »
No wonder the Pope of Slope hasn't been answering email. Ran and Sven have been keeping him busy.

If KP ever returns to the central coast, perhaps they can give Paso Robles {Golf,Country} Club a go.

Unless of course Sven gets on here and disavows Watson working there. ;)

Thanks Dean, and Ran for the article.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mark Kiely

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Re: Dean Knuth's piece on William Watson now posted under IMO
« Reply #68 on: February 20, 2021, 12:00:21 PM »
I don't exactly follow what's happening here.

Sven is credited as having assisted on this piece, but now is claiming that the essay includes dozens of falsehoods or inaccuracies?

Pretty sure any reputable publication called into question on so many potential inaccuracies would take said article offline until remedied. Should GCA do the same?
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Niall C

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Re: Dean Knuth's piece on William Watson now posted under IMO
« Reply #69 on: February 22, 2021, 10:03:45 AM »
Reputable !!? Have you seen some of the posters on here !  ;)

Mark

In all seriousness, this is an opinion piece posted on a discussion board. It's there to be read, questioned, discussed and indeed pulled apart. It's also a history piece and like all history is open to revision. That said, some of Sven's comments along the line of "I haven't seen the evidence" suggest he's setting himself up as judge and jury. If Sven is concerned that the course list used by Dean is so basically flawed then perhaps the thing to do is for him to write his own opinion piece based on his course list rather than trying to have someone else revise theirs based on Sven's views. Just a thought.

Niall 
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Sven Nilsen

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Re: Dean Knuth's piece on William Watson now posted under IMO
« Reply #70 on: February 22, 2021, 06:08:21 PM »
Quote from: Niall C on February 22, 2021, 10:03:45 AM
Reputable !!? Have you seen some of the posters on here !  ;)

Mark

In all seriousness, this is an opinion piece posted on a discussion board. It's there to be read, questioned, discussed and indeed pulled apart. It's also a history piece and like all history is open to revision. That said, some of Sven's comments along the line of "I haven't seen the evidence" suggest he's setting himself up as judge and jury. If Sven is concerned that the course list used by Dean is so basically flawed then perhaps the thing to do is for him to write his own opinion piece based on his course list rather than trying to have someone else revise theirs based on Sven's views. Just a thought.

Niall


Niall -


Read the very last paragraph of Dean's artlcle again.  Hopefully you can understand why I at least want to play "lawyer" on my own behalf.


I agree that any opinion piece presented on this site is open game for being questioned, discussed and pulled apart.  And hopefully we all can all recognize what is being presented as opinion and what is being presented as fact. 


Sven
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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Mark Kiely

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Re: Dean Knuth's piece on William Watson now posted under IMO
« Reply #71 on: February 22, 2021, 06:58:06 PM »
Maybe I'm not understanding the "opinion" angle here. It's basically a biography or long-form resume about Watson's work.


Nowhere can "opinion" factor into something like the course once known as Rio Rosarito is now operating as Real del Mar. Either it is the same course as Dean asserts, or Real del Mar is an entirely different project conceived some 30+ years after Watson's death, as Sven contends.


In my opinion... It's embarrassing for this site to post historical essays riddled with errors or poorly researched facts.
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Niall C

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Re: Dean Knuth's piece on William Watson now posted under IMO
« Reply #72 on: February 23, 2021, 03:31:35 AM »
Mark

This isn't a scientific journal, it's a website for geeks. If Dean hadn't taken the time to research and write his opinion piece Sven wouldn't have chipped in with his work and then we'd have no discussion on Watson and therefore who would learn anything about Watson. If it makes you feel better, just think of this as a peer review.

Sven

I suppose Dean is damned if he doesn't acknowledge your input and now he is damned for doing so because he either didn't agree with your input or took someone else's view over yours. At the end of the day it is an opinion piece and it's Deans opinion. You are of course entitled to comment and I didn't mean to infer otherwise, that was not my intent. Thinking about it however, I wonder if there is a better way of doing things but I'll save that for a separate thread.

Niall

 
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Mark Kiely

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Re: Dean Knuth's piece on William Watson now posted under IMO
« Reply #73 on: February 23, 2021, 11:59:46 AM »
Quote from: Niall C on February 23, 2021, 03:31:35 AM
Mark

This isn't a scientific journal, it's a website for geeks.
 


Geeks, more than anyone, should seek the truth when it comes to matters of historical record. Essays like this have the potential of being referenced for generations to come, so it's highly irresponsible to excuse inaccuracies simply because they're posted under the heading of "In My Opinion."
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Tim_Cronin

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Re: Dean Knuth's piece on William Watson now posted under IMO
« Reply #74 on: February 23, 2021, 07:45:35 PM »

Kudos to Dean Knuth for digging into the history of a fine (and rarely photographed) architect.

I can confirm William Watson for the original nine of Minne Monesse, near Grant Park, Ill., in Kankakee County. Opened 1926 as a par 34, eventually par 37, closed 1943 because of World War II, reopened 1961, E.G. "Ted" Lockie added nine in 1964. Remodeled 1996. I'd say six of the original nine holes remain.


I can also confirm Watson for South Shore CC in Momence, Ill., a bit south of Minne Monesse. Opened 1928. Other Momence references are actually for South Shore.


Olympia Fields is complicated and worth a different reply later.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2021, 12:41:05 PM by Tim_Cronin »
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