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Tim Martin

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“Macdonald had an artistic temperament; Raynor Did Not”
« on: January 26, 2021, 08:43:47 AM »
The quote in the title comes from a Tom Doak post in the “Templates” thread. Although Raynor used a formulaic approach or outline there is certainly artistry in his routings and holes. For the holes to be as compelling and enduring as they’ve been I would brand Raynor more than a civil engineer who happened to build golf courses.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 01:52:41 PM by Tim Martin »

Sven Nilsen

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Re: “MacDonald had an artistic temperament; Raynor Did Not”
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2021, 09:28:47 AM »
Quick quote from the author of the March 1918 The Olympian piece on Raynor:


"Mr. Raynor is a man with imagination who already has the new and finished Lakeside in his mind's eye.  Indeed, when he left here he was prepared to sit down and make his maps.  The holes he sees precisely as a musician sees the notes as they are written in the sheet of music though there is no sheet before him."
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tom_Doak

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Re: “MacDonald had an artistic temperament; Raynor Did Not”
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2021, 11:51:25 AM »
There is a huge difference between having some artistic ability, and having an artistic temperament.


Macdonald turned down jobs, or passed them on to Raynor.  He expressed his love and sentimentality for the game of golf and the people in it, in everything he did, whereas Raynor is very rarely quoted about golf at all.  Macdonald wrote of Lido, "Altogether my pilgrimage to the Lido brought only sadness to me, and I returned home feeling as if it were love's labor lost."  Are there any quotes like that from Seth Raynor anywhere?




Raynor is very easy to project upon, because we know so little about his actual work on site.  People love his courses, so they project that he must have known things and felt things that he never spoke about publicly.  99% of the interviews he did with local newspapers just regurgitate that the 1st hole will be a Leven, etc.  Comments from him about how a hole at Waialae or Shoreacres might differ from other versions of the same template are rare to nonexistent; all we have are those golf holes to make up stories about. 


Having a writer from the club he's planning to work on describe him as brilliant is pretty obviously p.r.


Raynor's versions of the Redan are all different from one another, but there is no real evidence one way or another to what extent those changes were deliberate, and what drove them, vs. just natural variation arising from different pieces of land and different crews building the courses.  Whereas Macdonald consistently and pointedly described what was different about his templates, what he didn't like about the original holes they were modeled after, etc.


They were very different men.  I'm not saying that Raynor wasn't a great golf course architect, but describing a guy who stuck to the same music as "a man with imagination" is a stretch.

Tim Martin

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Re: “MacDonald had an artistic temperament; Raynor Did Not”
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2021, 12:39:26 PM »
I’m not looking to go down a rabbit hole about what Raynor did and didn’t feel or better yet didn’t articulate about his work, relationship with MacDonald or the craft in general. To say that he lacked imagination is an assessment I don’t agree with.

Jim Hoak

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Re: “MacDonald had an artistic temperament; Raynor Did Not”
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2021, 12:41:02 PM »
I have heard the story that Hunter and MacKenzie referred to Raynor in a derogatory way as "The Engineer."  But I can't give evidence to this story.  Anyone know?

Tom_Doak

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Re: “MacDonald had an artistic temperament; Raynor Did Not”
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2021, 12:45:41 PM »
I’m not looking to go down a rabbit hole about what Raynor did and didn’t feel or better yet didn’t articulate about his work, relationship with MacDonald or the craft in general. To say that he lacked imagination is an assessment I don’t agree with.


Is being able to visualize a plan the same thing as imagination?


The definition I picked up of imagination is "the faculty or action of forming new ideas, or images or concepts of external objects not present to the senses."
[/size][/color]
[/size]The use of templates splits that definition right in half.  They're not new ideas, but they are not present on a new piece of ground.[/color]

Mark_Fine

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Re: “MacDonald had an artistic temperament; Raynor Did Not”
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2021, 12:57:14 PM »
Tim,
What Tom is basically saying is that since Raynor didn’t write a lot and self promote (like some architects do) he must have just been lucky that his courses turned out so well (the sites and crews were all different and as such so were his copied holes).  Lucky guy!  It couldn't have been anything Raynor did because he didn't brag about it like others do.  Macdonald on the other hand had all the answers and made it clear to everyone that it was he who was making improvements on all those inferior template holes that were based on the originals.   
« Last Edit: January 26, 2021, 01:06:57 PM by Mark_Fine »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: “MacDonald had an artistic temperament; Raynor Did Not”
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2021, 01:04:12 PM »

Is being able to visualize a plan the same thing as imagination?


The definition I picked up of imagination is "the faculty or action of forming new ideas, or images or concepts of external objects not present to the senses."

The use of templates splits that definition right in half.  They're not new ideas, but they are not present on a new piece of ground.


Interesting in light of past discussions.  I believe there are very few people with creative personalities, and studying them, I believe the mental process of churning and maybe combining ideas from various different places across the universe is the key.  Most people, including Raynor and other engineers, are only capable of straight line, point to point thinking, not the kind of internal brainstorming creative people do. 


In fact, big corporations and even small designers have brainstorming sessions frequently, as it doesn't necessarily have to be one brain that comes up with the right idea.  Many can contribute, sometimes unexpectedly, as in saying something makes someone else think of an entirely different thing that leads to a solution to whatever problem.


Only semi related, but back when I had a bigger staff, we would sometimes look at a supposedly "finished" design and I would ask each what one thing they might do to make the design better without changing the basic idea.  Usually, the answers were along the lines of trimming trees back here or there to open up the view, widen the fw, make the bunker more attractive, etc., etc. etc.  It was a little easier on the designer's ego if just one specific thing was added.  And, for the most part, there quickly came a time where the one thing got close to impossible to name, providing everyone was in the spirit of improving that design concept, not replacing it with one of their pet concepts.


BTW, Pet concepts of different architects also might be a good topic, although from memory, I think we did discuss it once.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2021, 01:08:19 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

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Re: “MacDonald had an artistic temperament; Raynor Did Not”
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2021, 01:08:37 PM »
Tim,
What Tom is basically saying is that since Raynor didn’t write a lot and self promote (like some architects do) he must have just been lucky that his courses turned out so well (the sites and crews were all different and as such so were his copied holes).  Lucky guy!  It couldn't have been anything Raynor did because he didn't brag about it like others do.  Macdonald on the other hand had all the answers and made it clear to everyone that it was he who was making improvements on all those inferior template holes that were based on the originals.   


Do you have any knowledge of Raynor's thought process? 


Did it even involve golf?  I know his work as well as you do, and I am not sure of the answer to that fundamental question.

SL_Solow

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Re: “MacDonald had an artistic temperament; Raynor Did Not”
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2021, 01:10:52 PM »
No, I think that Tom is differentiating the way the 2 individuals perceived the work.  It is unfair to suggest his opinion is based on Raynor's lack of surviving promotional or educational materials. I don't know the answer although everything I have read suggests that Raynor viewed the design process as that of figuring out the best way to arrange a limited number of template holes on to a particular property..  I do know that Raynor did an outstanding job in routing his courses to fit the templates into the various sites in a way to create outstanding courses.  Whether this skill is indicative of an artistic temperament is beyond me.  But I note that the courses that either created the molds or broke them all seemed to have MacDonald's involvement as opposed to those where Raynor acted alone.

Mark_Fine

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Re: “MacDonald had an artistic temperament; Raynor Did Not”
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2021, 01:11:58 PM »
Jeff,
There is an old saying I used often in every business I have run over the years, "If you have seven people in a room and they all think alike, you have six too many people in the room."  Diversity of knowledge and experience can lead to many great things especially if that diverse team can channel those differences into decisions that are embraced by all (and no one takes their ball and goes home). 

Tim Martin

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Re: “MacDonald had an artistic temperament; Raynor Did Not”
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2021, 01:14:30 PM »
I’m not looking to go down a rabbit hole about what Raynor did and didn’t feel or better yet didn’t articulate about his work, relationship with MacDonald or the craft in general. To say that he lacked imagination is an assessment I don’t agree with.


Is being able to visualize a plan the same thing as imagination?


The definition I picked up of imagination is "the faculty or action of forming new ideas, or images or concepts of external objects not present to the senses."

The use of templates splits that definition right in half.  They're not new ideas, but they are not present on a new piece of ground.


The templates were formulas for specific strategies or shot requirements. The way Raynor routed the holes, found or engineered the most compelling features and built wild free form greens wasn’t due to a lack of imagination. It’s hard for me to mark him down as an architect because he didn’t memorialize everything he did and especially being compared to MacDonald who was the original carnival barker.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2021, 01:16:57 PM by Tim Martin »

Tom_Doak

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Re: “MacDonald had an artistic temperament; Raynor Did Not”
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2021, 01:26:28 PM »
The way Raynor routed the holes, found or engineered the most compelling features and built wild free form greens wasn’t due to a lack of imagination. It’s hard for me to mark him down as an architect because he didn’t memorialize everything he did and especially being compared to MacDonald who was the original carnival barker.




First of all, I am against the idea of rating golf course architects to begin with.  And I do rate some of Raynor's courses very highly.  I don't want you to "mark him down" or even to mark him at all.


The original post of this thread was about artistic temperament, and now you have switched over to his ability as an architect, which is quite different.


Where I'm getting flak is for daring to suggest that maybe Raynor did not think so much about the golf strategy behind all of his variations on the templates, like you and Mark and many others assume.  And I insist that it is an assumption/projection on your part, because nobody seems to have any evidence [self promotional or otherwise] about his thought process.  If someone does, I would love to know about it, and it surely won't burst my bubble. 


In the meantime, I find more intriguing the possibility that he designed all of these courses that people love, even though he did not really think a lot about golf at all.  That would blow a lot of people's minds, but nobody seems to want to allow for the possibility, and I don't understand that defensiveness, especially on behalf of a man who died 95 years ago this week.

Mark_Fine

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Re: “MacDonald had an artistic temperament; Raynor Did Not”
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2021, 01:34:36 PM »
Tom,
All this discussion about "templates" etc. came about because of that threat on Pete Dye selling out on PGA West being a copy of TPC at Sawgrass.  I tried to defend the approach saying many architects build great golf courses using a template type approach - Pete Dye being one of them.  I asked who else uses that kind of approach or who doesn't and this is where we ended up.  You never answered my original question in that regard?  But you did seem to throw Raynor under the bus.  It should have been a harmless question - Which architects don't use templates or have design preferences that they gravitate toward?  You have seen enough to know.

Tim Martin

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Re: “MacDonald had an artistic temperament; Raynor Did Not”
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2021, 01:45:01 PM »
There’s also a possibility that he thought deeply about everything and never bothered to let on. If his intent was to design and build compelling and memorable golf courses then he succeeded.


Tom_Doak

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Re: “MacDonald had an artistic temperament; Raynor Did Not”
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2021, 02:19:23 PM »
Tom,
All this discussion about "templates" etc. came about because of that threat on Pete Dye selling out on PGA West being a copy of TPC at Sawgrass. 


You could at least stick to your own thread with your own questions.

Tom_Doak

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Re: “MacDonald had an artistic temperament; Raynor Did Not”
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2021, 02:20:27 PM »
There’s also a possibility that he thought deeply about everything and never bothered to let on. If his intent was to design and build compelling and memorable golf courses then he succeeded.


Sure.  As long as you are clear that is an assumption instead of positing it as fact.

Thomas Dai

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Re: “MacDonald had an artistic temperament; Raynor Did Not”
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2021, 02:36:40 PM »
Would it have been easier to replicate early era templates with the construction equipment available at the time of replification rather than with the bigger machines that were more widely used later on? Subtleties, nuances vrs excess earth moving, over-shaping etc? Just curious.
Atb

Sven Nilsen

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Re: “MacDonald had an artistic temperament; Raynor Did Not”
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2021, 05:03:45 PM »
Tom:


Why are you so convinced CBM had an artistic temperament?


He was a finance guy.  His first article on the ideal course written in 1907 almost sounds like the work of an engineer, including the 100 point Joshua Cranesque scale he came up with to analyze essential characteristics.


I don't doubt that CBM loved and understood the game of golf, but there is something almost autistic in the way he defined the categories comprising his notion of an ideal course.


What CBM may have had is a notion of romanticism, in that he knew what the game could be like on the right soil and contours, and that such a course did not yet exist in the U.S.


And this is why Raynor could never be CBM.  CBM had played the great courses abroad.  He knew what he was trying to recreate from experience.  Raynor only knew of it second hand. 


I think he did pretty well, considering.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: “MacDonald had an artistic temperament; Raynor Did Not”
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2021, 05:27:09 PM »
Sven,


Good point.  But, I'm pretty sure Tom had it almost right....he had a temper, if not an artistic temperament.....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sven Nilsen

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Re: “MacDonald had an artistic temperament; Raynor Did Not”
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2021, 05:59:46 PM »
I'm also not sure that we're using the term "artistic temperament" correctly. 

Unless I missed it, I don't think Tom meant to have some sort of comparison between CBM and Van Gogh, the most commonly used example of someone possessing this double-edged quality.  But then again, maybe CBM was closer to cutting off his own ear than I realize.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tim_Weiman

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Re: “MacDonald had an artistic temperament; Raynor Did Not”
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2021, 11:12:24 PM »
Tom:


Why are you so convinced CBM had an artistic temperament?


He was a finance guy.  His first article on the ideal course written in 1907 almost sounds like the work of an engineer, including the 100 point Joshua Cranesque scale he came up with to analyze essential characteristics.


I don't doubt that CBM loved and understood the game of golf, but there is something almost autistic in the way he defined the categories comprising his notion of an ideal course.


What CBM may have had is a notion of romanticism, in that he knew what the game could be like on the right soil and contours, and that such a course did not yet exist in the U.S.


And this is why Raynor could never be CBM.  CBM had played the great courses abroad.  He knew what he was trying to recreate from experience.  Raynor only knew of it second hand. 


I think he did pretty well, considering.


Sven
Sven,


Forgive my ignorance, but did Raynor never travel across the pond?
Tim Weiman

Mike_Young

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Re: “MacDonald had an artistic temperament; Raynor Did Not”
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2021, 11:39:23 PM »
People with artistic temperament know what TD is saying.
Jeff,  you say " I believe there are very few people with creative personalities,"  do you really think that...come on man?
-----I like Raynor for the most but I'm betting you he stacked his quarters on the dresser, folded his underwear and was much more organized than CBM...
And...  is a rectangular picture frame a template?

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Sven Nilsen

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Re: “MacDonald had an artistic temperament; Raynor Did Not”
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2021, 11:42:27 PM »

Sven,


Forgive my ignorance, but did Raynor never travel across the pond?


Maybe before working with CBM, but not after.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: “MacDonald had an artistic temperament; Raynor Did Not”
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2021, 11:53:16 PM »
People with artistic temperament know what TD is saying.


"You keep using that word.  I do not think it means what you think it means."

Indigo Montoya

Artistic Temperament - A disposition towards obsession and extremes of emotion, especially depression and anger.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

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