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Niall C

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #50 on: January 12, 2021, 10:03:55 AM »
Kevin

In terms of your list, you want to add Troon Portland and Duff house Royal to the ones for Scotland. In both instances there was a course there already but MacKenzie did a totally new routing/design including new tees/greens. He also did a 18 hole course at Strichen in Aberdeenshire but that is NLE. From memory everything else he did in Scotland was alterations to existing courses.

Niall


Niall


Thanks for your input. Can you please elaborate on your comments. I'm keen to find out more about AM's input


Troon Portland: as far as I am aware Fernie designed the original layout in the 1890s. AM was brought in in the early 1920s for a redesign?

Duff House Royal: as far as I am aware Simpson designed the original layout in 1910. AM was brought in in the early 1920s for a redesign?

Kevin

Re Troon Portland (known as the relief course) - Fernie redesigned the course in 1895 and altered it again in 1900. Whether he did the original design I'm not sure without digging out my notes. MacKenzie then redesigned the course in early 1920's such that it was virtually a new course. For instance, if you look at an aerial of the course now, it starts in the NW corner and runs along adjacent to the road with the first green up by the junction of the road and the railway line. The second then plays south adjacent to the railway line. In Fernie's latter design, the holes went in the completely opposite direction and it was similar for the rest of the course so when you change things to that extent I'd classify it as a new course.

Re Duff House Royal - similar to the above. Archie Simpson was there in 1907 to lay out a rudimentary course and then a short time later Simpson and Mure Fergusson laid out a "new" course. Then MacKenzie came along, again in the early to mid 1920's and virtually built a new course on top of the existing one. If you look at an aerial of the course it is kind of split into two with the opening and closing holes to the north of Duff House and the rest of the holes to the south. Before MacKenzie the holes to the north ran in a north/south direction whereas now they run in an east/west direction. The holes to the south of Duff House always have gone north to south as they still do but they are all new holes.

What Mac did do was utilise the existing turf in that he would strip the existing greens and use the turf on his new greens. Likewise with stretches of fairway IIRC. He did something similar for the London Flying Club GC (NLE).

Niall

JohnVDB

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #51 on: January 12, 2021, 10:53:36 AM »
Is there any routing maps of Haggin Oaks as done by Mackenzie that exist? 

I used to run a junior tour event on both the courses there.  From looking at it, I'd say a couple of the holes on the Arcade course might have been from the original routing.  I think that nothing much of Mackenzie exists anywhere on the property today, but it would be interesting to see what was there.

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #52 on: January 13, 2021, 12:02:01 AM »
Titirangi (NZ) should not be on the Original Design list as it was a redesign, albeit extensive, of the existing Maungakiekie course.

Brent Carlson

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #53 on: January 13, 2021, 12:20:22 AM »
Is there any routing maps of Haggin Oaks as done by Mackenzie that exist? 

I used to run a junior tour event on both the courses there.  From looking at it, I'd say a couple of the holes on the Arcade course might have been from the original routing.  I think that nothing much of Mackenzie exists anywhere on the property today, but it would be interesting to see what was there.


John,


Have you seen the routing hanging on the wall in the restaurant?  I believe that is by MacKenzie.  I can't find a photo of it right now...

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #54 on: January 13, 2021, 02:34:44 AM »

Uruguay
Chimont [Club de Golf del Cerro]
Uruguay [Club de Golf del Uruguay]
 
Kevin
Chimont is unconfirmed as a MacKenzie, but in any event it was a redesign of an existing course.
Club de Golf del Uruguay is of course confirmed but it too was a redesign of an existing course, not a new course.


In Buenos Aires Argentina MacKenzie also designed a new 18 hole course for the Club Nautico San Isidro, a visionary reclaimed course on the side of the River Plate. Construction was begun by Luther Kuntz but was only ever partly completed with 9 holes built and huge problems were encountered with flooding. The course was eventually extended to 18 holes by Koontz by 1955 but further flooding meant the course was totally rebuilt at a higher level by a different architect. So it is effectively a NLE.




Neil_Crafter

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #55 on: January 13, 2021, 02:56:42 AM »
Kevin
You are also missing St Charles in Winnipeg, Canada, where MacKenzie added a new 9 holes to the club's existing Ross nine.


He also designed a 9 hole Approach and Putt Course for Gus Lachman in San Francisco which opened in 1932.


And you should also include Melrose Country Club in Philadelphia which was designed by Mackenzie and Maxwell over the site of a rudimentary existing course so effectively a totally new course (1926-28).


MacKenzie and Maxwell built 27 holes at Nichols Hills in Oklahoma City, 18 of which eventually became the Oklahoma City Golf and Country Club. The other nine became housing.


At Redlands in Los Angeles MacKenzie and Hunter added 10 new holes and remodelled 8 holes in 1926-27. So possibly should go into the Original Designs category too.

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #56 on: January 13, 2021, 03:54:56 AM »
Neil,


Can you tell us anything about the book project you are working on?


Thanks.
Tim Weiman

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #57 on: January 13, 2021, 04:33:42 PM »
Neil,


Can you tell us anything about the book project you are working on?


Thanks.


Hi Tim
Yes I have assembled all my MacKenzie course research into a series of articles about each project, whether new or remodel, built or unbuilt, or even if it was a project he bid on but lost. I plan for it to be in a series of volumes by geographical location, expecting around 4 volumes as there is way too much material for just one book. And just focussed on the historical aspects of MacKenzie's involvement, no modern review of the course as it is now. I'm in discussions with a publisher about it now. But as you'd appreciate it its not an easy task to get published. The manuscript is about 98% complete, and I keep adding to it and revising it as I keep finding additional material. In the process I've unearthed quite a few previously unknown projects he was involved with. Will be a culmination of over 15 years of research. Hope this helps.
cheers Neil

JohnVDB

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #58 on: January 13, 2021, 09:11:22 PM »
Is there any routing maps of Haggin Oaks as done by Mackenzie that exist? 

I used to run a junior tour event on both the courses there.  From looking at it, I'd say a couple of the holes on the Arcade course might have been from the original routing.  I think that nothing much of Mackenzie exists anywhere on the property today, but it would be interesting to see what was there.


John,


Have you seen the routing hanging on the wall in the restaurant?  I believe that is by MacKenzie.  I can't find a photo of it right now...


Brent,


I never did notice it and I doubt Iíll be back there again, so if you have a picture Iíd love to see it.


Thanks,


John

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #59 on: January 14, 2021, 01:07:49 AM »
An original MacKenzie design missing from the lists here and also not a member club of the MacKenzie Society is Marsden, a humble 9 hole course on the moors near Huddersfield.


I doubt that anyone visiting Marsden would suspect Dr Macís involvement if they didnít already know.


https://www.marsdengolfclub.co.uk/


Duncan


Thanks for that - I didn't know about Dr Mac doing that course. Added to the OP.


Do you know anything about Dr Mac's involvement at Nelson - which moved to Marsden Heights?

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #60 on: January 14, 2021, 01:18:12 AM »

Kevin

Re Troon Portland (known as the relief course) - Fernie redesigned the course in 1895 and altered it again in 1900. Whether he did the original design I'm not sure without digging out my notes. MacKenzie then redesigned the course in early 1920's such that it was virtually a new course. For instance, if you look at an aerial of the course now, it starts in the NW corner and runs along adjacent to the road with the first green up by the junction of the road and the railway line. The second then plays south adjacent to the railway line. In Fernie's latter design, the holes went in the completely opposite direction and it was similar for the rest of the course so when you change things to that extent I'd classify it as a new course.

Re Duff House Royal - similar to the above. Archie Simpson was there in 1907 to lay out a rudimentary course and then a short time later Simpson and Mure Fergusson laid out a "new" course. Then MacKenzie came along, again in the early to mid 1920's and virtually built a new course on top of the existing one. If you look at an aerial of the course it is kind of split into two with the opening and closing holes to the north of Duff House and the rest of the holes to the south. Before MacKenzie the holes to the north ran in a north/south direction whereas now they run in an east/west direction. The holes to the south of Duff House always have gone north to south as they still do but they are all new holes.

What Mac did do was utilise the existing turf in that he would strip the existing greens and use the turf on his new greens. Likewise with stretches of fairway IIRC. He did something similar for the London Flying Club GC (NLE).

Niall


Niall


Thanks for all the extra detail and history.


Like you say, if a course doesn't follow the majority of original routing then I'd classify it as an OD. A complete rework of direction, tees, greensites IMO meets that criteria. I will update the OP.




Kevin Pallier

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #61 on: January 14, 2021, 01:31:51 AM »
Titirangi (NZ) should not be on the Original Design list as it was a redesign, albeit extensive, of the existing Maungakiekie course.


Neil


Is there more detail on the work Dr Mac changed? According to the club's website Dr Mac changed 13 greens and added 9 new fairways.


I presume he detailed all new bunkering? and like Russell at RM - Cooke implemented same?

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #62 on: January 14, 2021, 01:36:17 AM »

Duncan


Thanks for that - I didn't know about Dr Mac doing that course. Added to the OP.


Do you know anything about Dr Mac's involvement at Nelson - which moved to Marsden Heights?


Kevin, Nelson was a new 18 hole course by Mackenzie with 9 holes completed in the first few years of WW1 and the remainder immediately after, on a site adjacent to the club's existing course at Kibble Bank.

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #63 on: January 14, 2021, 01:40:16 AM »
Titirangi (NZ) should not be on the Original Design list as it was a redesign, albeit extensive, of the existing Maungakiekie course.


Neil


Is there more detail on the work Dr Mac changed? According to the club's website Dr Mac changed 13 greens and added 9 new fairways.


I presume he detailed all new bunkering? and like Russell at RM - Cooke implemented same?


Kevin, I have a pretty detailed account of the development of Titirangi in my manuscript but the club history does a decent job. Really depends on your definition of a remodelling vs a new course. Yes Cooke was in charge of building it. Some in the club wanted to bring in Charles Redhead from Rotorua but MacKenzie didn't want that and encouraged them to let the local man oversee the new work.

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #64 on: January 14, 2021, 01:52:56 AM »
Thanks for that Neil - I look forward to the day when your manuscripts come to print. I'm sure they will become fascinating reading.

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #65 on: January 14, 2021, 01:58:01 AM »
Kevin
You are also missing St Charles in Winnipeg, Canada, where MacKenzie added a new 9 holes to the club's existing Ross nine.


He also designed a 9 hole Approach and Putt Course for Gus Lachman in San Francisco which opened in 1932.


And you should also include Melrose Country Club in Philadelphia which was designed by Mackenzie and Maxwell over the site of a rudimentary existing course so effectively a totally new course (1926-28).


MacKenzie and Maxwell built 27 holes at Nichols Hills in Oklahoma City, 18 of which eventually became the Oklahoma City Golf and Country Club. The other nine became housing.


At Redlands in Los Angeles MacKenzie and Hunter added 10 new holes and remodelled 8 holes in 1926-27. So possibly should go into the Original Designs category too.


Neil


I respect where you are coming from re: St Charles. I was originally trying to limit the thread to courses (18 or 9)where Dr Mac was the sole designer eg: Northwood. I suppose I could rework same to try and fit in contructs such as those you mention.

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #66 on: January 14, 2021, 04:23:16 PM »

Neil


I respect where you are coming from re: St Charles. I was originally trying to limit the thread to courses (18 or 9)where Dr Mac was the sole designer eg: Northwood. I suppose I could rework same to try and fit in contructs such as those you mention.


Kevin, Northwood was a joint design of Mackenzie and Robert Hunter whereas St Charles was a sole Mackenzie design. Most of his California courses were joint designs with Hunter.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #67 on: January 15, 2021, 05:58:14 PM »

And you should also include Melrose Country Club in Philadelphia which was designed by Mackenzie and Maxwell over the site of a rudimentary existing course so effectively a totally new course (1926-28).


MacKenzie and Maxwell built 27 holes at Nichols Hills in Oklahoma City, 18 of which eventually became the Oklahoma City Golf and Country Club. The other nine became housing.



Neil:


I am sure you have seen the letter from MacKenzie to Maxwell in praise of Maxwell's work at Melrose.


My impression from that letter is that Maxwell had the contract prior to their partnership, and after they paired up it was a "MacKenzie and Maxwell project" but still entirely Maxwell's design.  As far as I know, MacKenzie never set foot in Philadelphia until Melrose was finished.  He did stop through Oklahoma City to visit Maxwell, but again, my impression is that was Maxwell's job from start to finish and MacKenzie's involvement was in name only.


Is that your impression, too, or do you have something more about them?  If not, listing them as MacKenzie's is kind of a stretch.


Of course, this may be true of MacKenzie's work with Robert Hunter, as well, but we do know for certain that MacKenzie was on the ground for the most noteworthy of them.

James Boon

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #68 on: January 16, 2021, 12:13:13 PM »
How much is/was original AMaC and how much is a re-model or tweaks by him at some stage is debatable but to places he worked in GB&I you could probably add -

Western-Super-Mare
Broadway
Malvern (The Worcestershire)
Walsall
Stanmore
Halifax
Nelson
South Moor
Crosslands Heath
Blairgowrie
Grange-over-Sands
West Herts
Bingley St Ives
Headingly
Harrogate
Pollok
Seaton Carew
Muskerry
Rhayader (NLE)


Thomas

Thanks for your considered input - as you say the definition of an OD v a redesign is important. I feel that if there is an existing routing and the large majority that's reused it's more of a redesign.

As per your list of courses

Blairgowrie: didnít Mackenzie extend the original 9 holes to 18?



At Blairgowrie there was an existing 9 holes before MacKenzie came along. He extended it to 18 but virtually nothing of the original 9 remained in his new layout so it was pretty much all his work. The course has then been changed a couple of times since, making part of MacKenzie's course the Wee Nine, while the remainder was incorporated into the Rosemount course and its various versions. Of the original MacKenzie 18, I think about 15 holes still remain in play on either the Wee or the Rosemount.


Cheers,


James


ps While Sean points out there might not be much MacKenzie at Sutton Coldfield the rating of 3 and description are I'd say a little harsh as I've always thought there is some decent golf there.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2021, 01:13:18 PM by James Boon »
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell (Notts), Brora, Aberdovey, Royal St Davids, Woodhall Spa, Broadstone, Parkstone, Cleeve, Painswick, Minchinhampton, Hoylake

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Niall C

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #69 on: January 16, 2021, 12:26:09 PM »
James


I can't quite recall the Rosemount story but I'm not sure that it's as simple as nine holes tacked on to an existing nine. For one thing I'm pretty sure Braid came along afterwards and did his thing.


Niall

James Boon

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #70 on: January 16, 2021, 01:22:44 PM »
Niall,


Indeed it wasnt just a simple case of tacking on another nine, either by MacKenzie or the Braid layout that followed. I just checked and Braid came along only 9 years after the MacKenzie, and added 8 new holes, with the remainder or the majority of it eventually becoming the Wee 9.


The clubs history books isnt clear how much Braid changed what MacKenzie had done. Equally its not clear on when the Wee was formed, either when Braid made the changes or much later, maybe in the mid 70s when Alliss and Thomas added the Lansdowne 18 holes and made a few other changes to the Rosemount.


However based on the clubs history book, it would appear that about 15 holes on the property are going to be pretty close to what MacKenzie designed. Somewhere on here I did a photo tour which had a few maps in it showing the various changes if anyone can find that!  ::)  Failing that I can email you the maps if you'd like?


Cheers,


James



2023 Highlights: Hollinwell (Notts), Brora, Aberdovey, Royal St Davids, Woodhall Spa, Broadstone, Parkstone, Cleeve, Painswick, Minchinhampton, Hoylake

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Drew Harvie

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #71 on: January 16, 2021, 01:37:33 PM »
I've only played Pasatiempo and his nine holes at St. Charles in Winnipeg Canada, but I liked both. St. Charles in particular had some interesting decisions from Dr. Mackenzie to get the routing the way he wanted, and obviously Pasatiempo is highly regarded

James Reader

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #72 on: January 16, 2021, 05:19:20 PM »
Niall,


Indeed it wasnt just a simple case of tacking on another nine, either by MacKenzie or the Braid layout that followed. I just checked and Braid came along only 9 years after the MacKenzie, and added 8 new holes, with the remainder or the majority of it eventually becoming the Wee 9.


The clubs history books isnt clear how much Braid changed what MacKenzie had done. Equally its not clear on when the Wee was formed, either when Braid made the changes or much later, maybe in the mid 70s when Alliss and Thomas added the Lansdowne 18 holes and made a few other changes to the Rosemount.


However based on the clubs history book, it would appear that about 15 holes on the property are going to be pretty close to what MacKenzie designed. Somewhere on here I did a photo tour which had a few maps in it showing the various changes if anyone can find that!  ::)  Failing that I can email you the maps if you'd like?


Cheers,


James


Itís here James - [size=78%]https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48529.msg1095561.html#msg1095561[/size]


I read it a few months ago before playing the Rosemount again for the first time in over 30 years.  Iíd hoped to be able to play the Wee as well but couldnít get on.  Maybe later this year - assuming weíll be allowed back into Scotland at some point!


DFarron

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #73 on: January 16, 2021, 09:24:39 PM »
Never been a fan of Northwood....I'm not sure threading a drive through 100 ft redwoods was a MacKenzie design principal.


You have to look really hard to see MacKenzie traits, the course is wet all the time.


On the positive I have made several trips there because the people are so fun and interesting and the food is excellent.

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #74 on: January 18, 2021, 12:56:42 AM »

And you should also include Melrose Country Club in Philadelphia which was designed by Mackenzie and Maxwell over the site of a rudimentary existing course so effectively a totally new course (1926-28).


MacKenzie and Maxwell built 27 holes at Nichols Hills in Oklahoma City, 18 of which eventually became the Oklahoma City Golf and Country Club. The other nine became housing.


Neil:


I am sure you have seen the letter from MacKenzie to Maxwell in praise of Maxwell's work at Melrose.


My impression from that letter is that Maxwell had the contract prior to their partnership, and after they paired up it was a "MacKenzie and Maxwell project" but still entirely Maxwell's design.  As far as I know, MacKenzie never set foot in Philadelphia until Melrose was finished.  He did stop through Oklahoma City to visit Maxwell, but again, my impression is that was Maxwell's job from start to finish and MacKenzie's involvement was in name only.


Is that your impression, too, or do you have something more about them?  If not, listing them as MacKenzie's is kind of a stretch.


Of course, this may be true of MacKenzie's work with Robert Hunter, as well, but we do know for certain that MacKenzie was on the ground for the most noteworthy of them.


Tom, Maxwell did have the Melrose project first and brought MacKenzie into it. However, MacKenzie did visit the site in late March 1927 and it was reported that he would be "revising the plan of the Melrose course" which presumably meant he had his say on Maxwell's routing and and he also approved of the fairway alignments in the wooded areas of the course so that clearing could begin. The same newspaper report noted that MacKenzie would "change materially the grading, the type of bunkers and the construction of greens." So if the report is to be believed he made some changes. While in Philly he visited Merion and Pine Valley.


A later report also said that MacKenzie made three visits during construction of the course, but I've no confirmation of these other than the report itself.


This was MacKenzie's first project with Maxwell and so I think its quite likely that he rather put his foot down and said how he wanted things done. Maxwell course was the man who had to build it when MacKenzie wasn't there, just like Robert Hunter in California. After all it was McKenzie & Maxwell not the other way round! But I think in this case a reasonable amount of the credit for Melrose must go to MacKenzie but the majority to Maxwell if you have to apportion it.


cheers Neil

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