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Kevin Pallier

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Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« on: January 03, 2021, 02:57:30 AM »
Dr Mackenzie designed some amazing courses but he also built one's that are at the other end of the scale.
 
From what you've seen: What are his Top3 original designs? (by rating) What are his Bottom3 original designs? (by rating)
 
Please explain why you came to same.

EDIT: Updated to include list of OD's

Australia & NZ
Royal Melbourne [West]
New South Wales GC [original routing but Apperly made many changes]
Titirangi [NZ]
 
Argentina
Jockey Club [ Red ]
Jockey Club [ Blue ]
 
England
Alwoodley
Blackpool
Bolton Old Links
Bramall Park
Bury
Cavendish
Cleckheaton & District
Crosland Heath
Darlington
Douglas [Isle Of Man]
Garforth
Grange-Over-Sands
Hadley Wood
Hazel Grove
Headingley
Lilley Brook
Low Laithes
Marsden
Moortown
Morecambe
Oakdale
Otterburn Hall [NLE]
Reddish Vale
Sand Moor
Shipley
Sitwell Park
Sutton Coldfield
Teignmouth
Temple Newsam [Lord Irwin]
The Worcestershire
Walsall
Wheatley Park [NLE]
Worcester Golf & Country Club
 
Scotland
Bonnyton
Duff House Royal
Hazlehead [MacKenzie]
Pitreavie [Dunfermline]
Royal Troon [Portland]

Wales
Rhayader [NLE]
 
Uruguay
Chimont [Club de Golf del Cerro]
Uruguay [Club de Golf del Uruguay]
 
USA
Augusta National
Bayside Links [NLE]
Crystal Downs
Cypress Point
Green Hills
Haggin Oaks
Meadow Club
Northwood
Ohio State University [Gray]
Ohio State University [Scarlet]
Pasatiempo
Sharp Park
University of Michigan
Valley Club of Montecito



Top3
Cypress Point 10: amazing land, routing and holes that transition from parkland / woodland / ocean front 
Royal Melbourne  ( West) 9: great collection and variety of holes on wide undulating land with due credit to Russell and Morcom for building same 
Pasatiempo 8:  great routing, greens and bunkering that test all facets of the game
PS: I have not seen ANGC
 
Bottom 3
Blackpool 4:  Ok routing and some reasonable holes
Hazelhead 3: relatively bland site and no standout holes
Sutton Coldfield 3: average site and no real standout holes
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 01:21:40 AM by Kevin Pallier »

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2021, 05:04:57 AM »
I think Low Laithes would be the least distinguished MacKenzie course I have seen. It was resolutely ordinary
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Niall C

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2021, 08:48:31 AM »
Kevin


I'd love to be able to pick Cypress Point and Royal Melbourne as two of my three best MacKenzie courses but sadly I've never played them. If some kind member wants to treat this post as a shameless plea for access then be aware that I'll happily get on the first plane available following the beating of this pandemic.


That said, I have played Pasatiempo. It will be in my top 3 picks however I can't agree with your comment on the routing. To me it demonstrates a MacKenzie design weakness and that is a habit for designing parallel holes playing in opposite directions so that they slightly dog-leg into each other, hence the need to plant trees between the two. Maybe that's an individual hole design weakness, but whatever, it's still a weakness.


Re the 3 worst, again haven't played any of those named but I have majored on the design/build history of Hazlehead and what you have there is a course that was largely chopped (partially re-routed over new ground) and changed (fairways re contoured and flattened to remove rock/stone under surface) not long after MacKenzie was taken off the project. To blame/credit Mac with what is there now is therefore doing him an injustice IMHO.


As for my list;


3 Best (out of a field of four that I've played !);


Alwoodley - utterly charming with terrific use of natural features/contours.


Duff House Royal - shows what can be done on a relatively flat site. Terrific green complexes. I suspect if the site wasn't so free draining, the greens might have been rebuilt along the way and many of the features lost. Thankfully they haven't.


Pasatiempo - great use of natural features.


3 Worst - given I've only played 4 completely new designs of MacKenzie, it seems harsh to have Troon Portland as one of the worst simply because it didn't crack the top 3. It's certainly not a bad design but it could be so much better if it got a bit of TLC and restoration as envisaged by Colin Cotter.


Niall


   
« Last Edit: January 03, 2021, 11:20:42 AM by Niall C »

Tom_Doak

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2021, 03:26:04 PM »
When Mackenzie started out, a lot of clubs would hire him to provide a consulting report, and then it was up to them whether to do anything with it or not; often, in his early days, he wasn't involved with whatever they implemented.  It's a good bet most of his "worst" work came from that period, or else from his days of hectic travel where one of his associates was responsible for everything afterward.


My thought is that most architects their best work will come when they had the best site and the most supportive clients, and their worst will come when they had to deal with too much red tape, difficult clients, or other distractions [which may not necessarily have anything to do with the site].  Generally, though, it's not like we are brilliant one year and dumb-asses another.

Niall C

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2021, 03:40:33 PM »
Tom


Absolutely. Factor in also that a hundred years might have passed since MacKenzie was there and much could have happened to the course meantime, which was the point I was making about Hazlehead.


Niall

Sean_A

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie New
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2021, 04:03:01 PM »
The opposite could well be true as well.  If one takes the credit, there is good and bad to be counted.

I assume places like Littlestone & Michigan don't count. So I go with

Crystal Downs played too long ago to remember well

Alwoodley
Cavendish
Moortown

I can't really pick poor courses because so many are not proper Dr Macs anymore. Even so, I can't think of any duds I have seen.

Happy Hockey
« Last Edit: January 18, 2024, 04:54:25 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2021, 07:19:04 PM »
Kevin


I'd love to be able to pick Cypress Point and Royal Melbourne as two of my three best MacKenzie courses but sadly I've never played them.

Niall

(Ex. COVID) One can access RMW relatively easily as a member of another golf course. They readily accept international / other golfers.


That said, I have played Pasatiempo. It will be in my top 3 picks however I can't agree with your comment on the routing. To me it demonstrates a MacKenzie design weakness and that is a habit for designing parallel holes playing in opposite directions so that they slightly dog-leg into each other, hence the need to plant trees between the two. Maybe that's an individual hole design weakness, but whatever, it's still a weakness.

I agree with you about the natural features - isn't its use considered part of one's routing?


For mine - Mackenzie also tackled the biggest topography challenges straight-up at the begining of both 9's. The first two holes on the F9 head down to the lowest parts of the course. The first two holes on the B9 head to it's highest. I thought that was a positive of Pasatiempo.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2021, 03:37:16 AM »
Best and worst?
When describing the work of folks at the very, very top of their profession then, to paraphrase a comment by Harry Colt, .... "least bad" .. and thus least good would perhaps be more appropriate?
atb
« Last Edit: January 04, 2021, 03:45:53 AM by Thomas Dai »

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2021, 03:47:04 AM »
I think Low Laithes would be the least distinguished MacKenzie course I have seen. It was resolutely ordinary


Strangely Low Laithes came late in MacKenzie’s career in the U.K. Within a couple of years he was at Royal Melbourne and Pasietempo.


This metamorphosis in MacKenzie’s output and fortunes intrigues me greatly and has never adequately been explained.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2021, 03:59:49 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Sean_A

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2021, 03:59:53 AM »
I think Low Laithes would be the least distinguished MacKenzie course I have seen. It was resolutely ordinary


Strangely Low Laithes came late in MacKenzie’s career in the U.K. Within a couple of years he was at Pasietempo.


This metamorphosis in MacKenzie’s output and fortunes intrigues me and has never adequately been explained.

Could it be that Dr Mac teamed up with excellent partners when he left the UK? Combined with getting superior sites these elements could explain the massive jump in his career.

Did Dr Mac ever have an exceptional piece of land to work with in the UK?

Happy Hockey
« Last Edit: January 04, 2021, 04:48:44 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2021, 05:08:45 AM »
Sean,


A good point. MacKenzie didn’t get the same opportunities on fine links or heathland sites that Colt did. He also didn’t get the same big budget commissions from prestigious clubs.


Some might say that Colt was rather canny in making MacKenzie a (junior?) partner after WW1 rather than having him as a competitor.





« Last Edit: January 04, 2021, 05:43:34 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Sean_A

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2021, 05:21:23 AM »
I wonder what might have been if Dr Mac landed a few of London Heathland jobs. Truthfully, I don't think he would have done any better than Colt. I do wonder if he would have made the Berkshire courses a bit better.

Happy Hockey
« Last Edit: January 04, 2021, 05:40:37 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Niall C

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2021, 05:34:44 AM »
Kevin


Re Royal Melbourne - noted, and I'm sure you appreciate I was speaking in jest.


Re land forms and routing, I suppose you can argue that some of his mis-steps were more individual hole design issues rather than routing but I tend to think that where he purposely created dog-legs that now don't work or produce safety issues that that is more a routing issue.


Your mention of landforms made me think of another original design of his that I've played and that is Pitreavie. In the north east corner of the site there is a small hill with a copse of trees and Mac managed to fit in 3 greens and 3 tees. All crammed in but it works and are some of the best holes. It's touch and go whether I'd pick Pitreavie ahead of Pasatiempo. 


Niall

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2021, 06:00:46 AM »

Re land forms and routing, I suppose you can argue that some of his mis-steps were more individual hole design issues rather than routing but I tend to think that where he purposely created dog-legs that now don't work or produce safety issues that that is more a routing issue.



Niall, if by “doglegs turning into each other” you mean holes where you drive close to the parallel hole before turning slightly away to the green, then he also did this at 14 & 15 at Lahinch which was a tight double fairway before Hawtree created a separation.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2021, 11:26:48 AM »

Re land forms and routing, I suppose you can argue that some of his mis-steps were more individual hole design issues rather than routing but I tend to think that where he purposely created dog-legs that now don't work or produce safety issues that that is more a routing issue.

Your mention of landforms made me think of another original design of his that I've played and that is Pitreavie. In the north east corner of the site there is a small hill with a copse of trees and Mac managed to fit in 3 greens and 3 tees. All crammed in but it works and are some of the best holes. It's touch and go whether I'd pick Pitreavie ahead of Pasatiempo. 





This is actually a good synopsis of MacKenzie's strengths AND weakness, and they are two sides of the same coin.  Where he would find a cool natural feature, I want to say that he got more out of it than any other architect -- not just one cool hole, but two, or even three!


But that did cause safety issues on some of his courses when the game got bigger.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2021, 11:34:55 AM »
Re land forms and routing, I suppose you can argue that some of his mis-steps were more individual hole design issues rather than routing but I tend to think that where he purposely created dog-legs that now don't work or produce safety issues that that is more a routing issue.
Niall, if by “doglegs turning into each other” you mean holes where you drive close to the parallel hole before turning slightly away to the green, then he also did this at 14 & 15 at Lahinch which was a tight double fairway before Hawtree created a separation.
Pondering the Mack’s I’m most familiar with this semi-parallel and then away is a tendency and one that has become a safety issue now that with equipment developments we have ‘big golf’.
Atb

Jeff Schley

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2021, 12:18:03 PM »
Question which would help this analysis.  How many courses by Mackenzie exist today? There aren’t many in the USA, but I know most are in the UK.  Anyone have a figure perhaps by continent or country?  Would be helpful to know the scale for I have played very few.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2021, 12:52:38 PM »
Question which would help this analysis.  How many courses by Mackenzie exist today? There aren’t many in the USA, but I know most are in the UK.  Anyone have a figure perhaps by continent or country?  Would be helpful to know the scale for I have played very few.


Neil Crafter has been working on this and hopefully he will chime in with an answer.


It's hard to put a number on it because so much of his work was redesign, and you have to decide where the threshold comes of that being a MacKenzie course.


Among his redesigns are several of his top courses:  Lahinch, Royal Melbourne (West), Royal Adelaide, Kingston Heath [if you count rerouting one hole].


If you discount all the redesigns, I think the number is only about 60 or 70 courses that still exist today.  With the redesigns, it's somewhere between 150 and 200 maybe.

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2021, 07:38:30 PM »
Question which would help this analysis.  How many courses by Mackenzie exist today? There aren’t many in the USA, but I know most are in the UK.  Anyone have a figure perhaps by continent or country?  Would be helpful to know the scale for I have played very few.


Jeff


As Tom says Neil Crafter is the expert on this. From my records his OD's include the following though he did a lot of redesign work.


Australia & NZ
Royal Melbourne [West]
New South Wales GC [original routing but Apperly made many changes]
Titirangi [NZ]
 
Argentina
Jockey Club [ Red ]
Jockey Club [ Blue ]
 
England
Alwoodley
Blackpool
Bolton Old Links
Bramall Park
Cavendish
Cleckheaton & District
Darlington
Douglas [Isle Of Man]
Garforth
Hadley Wood
Hazel Grove
Lilley Brook
Low Laithes
Moortown
Morecambe
Oakdale
Reddish Vale
Sand Moor
Shipley
Sitwell Park
Sutton Coldfield
Teignmouth
Temple Newsam [Lord Irwin]
Worcester Golf & Country Club
 
Scotland
Bonnyton
Hazlehead [MacKenzie]
Pitreavie [Dunfermline]
 
Uruguay
Chimont [Club de Golf del Cerro]
Uruguay [Club de Golf del Uruguay]
 
USA
Augusta National
Crystal Downs
Cypress Point
Green Hills
Haggin Oaks
Meadow Club
Northwood
Ohio State University [Gray]
Ohio State University [Scarlet]
Pasatiempo
Sharp Park
University of Michigan
Valley Club of Montecito



« Last Edit: January 04, 2021, 08:21:19 PM by Kevin Pallier »

Joel_Stewart

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2021, 08:41:32 PM »
The two least good courses for Mackenzie that I have played are,


Haggin Oaks in Sacramento.  Sadly only a few original holes exist but I don't see anything interesting in that property.


Sharp Park.  Mackenzie made a huge mistake routing the holes on the ocean and within a year or two the ocean swept over the golf course. It was an ambitious project that even with todays technology would be difficult to accomplish.  The holes that remain are okay at best but it's a peaceful place with a good vibe.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2021, 09:26:33 AM by Joel_Stewart »

Niall C

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2021, 04:51:25 AM »
Joel

Did you not mean to say the two least good courses ?

Kevin

Thank you, you've jogged my dodgy memory and reminded me of Bonnyton which I've also played. Not a bad course at all but at some point the greens look as though they have been buggered about with in that some of what I imagine would have been false fronts have been removed. I'm sure a "Dr Mac" expert could give them a sympathetic reno to bring back up to scratch. Probably at the bottom of my list of five but not by much. In particular it has one cracking par 3.

In terms of your list, you want to add Troon Portland and Duff house Royal to the ones for Scotland. In both instances there was a course there already but MacKenzie did a totally new routing/design including new tees/greens. He also did a 18 hole course at Strichen in Aberdeenshire but that is NLE. From memory everything else he did in Scotland was alterations to existing courses.

Niall

Shane Wright

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2021, 07:21:17 AM »
Question which would help this analysis.  How many courses by Mackenzie exist today? There aren’t many in the USA, but I know most are in the UK.  Anyone have a figure perhaps by continent or country?  Would be helpful to know the scale for I have played very few.


Jeff


As Tom says Neil Crafter is the expert on this. From my records his OD's include the following though he did a lot of redesign work.


Australia & NZ
Royal Melbourne [West]
New South Wales GC [original routing but Apperly made many changes]
Titirangi [NZ]
 
Argentina
Jockey Club [ Red ]
Jockey Club [ Blue ]
 
England
Alwoodley
Blackpool
Bolton Old Links
Bramall Park
Cavendish
Cleckheaton & District
Darlington
Douglas [Isle Of Man]
Garforth
Hadley Wood
Hazel Grove
Lilley Brook
Low Laithes
Moortown
Morecambe
Oakdale
Reddish Vale
Sand Moor
Shipley
Sitwell Park
Sutton Coldfield
Teignmouth
Temple Newsam [Lord Irwin]
Worcester Golf & Country Club
 
Scotland
Bonnyton
Hazlehead [MacKenzie]
Pitreavie [Dunfermline]
 
Uruguay
Chimont [Club de Golf del Cerro]
Uruguay [Club de Golf del Uruguay]
 
USA
Augusta National
Crystal Downs
Cypress Point
Green Hills
Haggin Oaks
Meadow Club
Northwood
Ohio State University [Gray]
Ohio State University [Scarlet]
Pasatiempo
Sharp Park
University of Michigan
Valley Club of Montecito


He also did Cork Golf Club - County Cork Ireland

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2021, 07:28:00 AM »
Shane,


Off the top of my head, all of MacKenzie’s work in Ireland was redesign (Cork, Lahinch), NLE (Malone) or has changed beyond recognition (Galway).


Again, others might know more.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2021, 09:25:47 AM »
Kevin:


Thanks for the list above . . . that's probably the best list I've seen in one place.

There are twenty on that list I have not seen, nearly all of them in England or Scotland.  Maybe one day I will have time to get to them all.


When I was building High Pointe, two of my friends wondered aloud how many courses I would wind up building in my career.  They settled on somewhere between 40 and 60.  I was 26 years old at the time, so that was only basically one course per year, but I think they had it pegged about right . . . I'm between 35 and 40 now, depending on how you count.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2021, 09:36:23 AM by Tom_Doak »

Thomas Dai

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Mackenzie
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2021, 09:53:50 AM »
As Tom says Neil Crafter is the expert on this. From my records his OD's include the following though he did a lot of redesign work.
Australia & NZ
Royal Melbourne [West]
New South Wales GC [original routing but Apperly made many changes]
Titirangi [NZ]
Argentina
Jockey Club [ Red ]
Jockey Club [ Blue ]
England
Alwoodley
Blackpool
Bolton Old Links
Bramall Park
Cavendish
Cleckheaton & District
Darlington
Douglas [Isle Of Man]
Garforth
Hadley Wood
Hazel Grove
Lilley Brook
Low Laithes
Moortown
Morecambe
Oakdale
Reddish Vale
Sand Moor
Shipley
Sitwell Park
Sutton Coldfield
Teignmouth
Temple Newsam [Lord Irwin]
Worcester Golf & Country Club
Scotland
Bonnyton
Hazlehead [MacKenzie]
Pitreavie [Dunfermline]
Uruguay
Chimont [Club de Golf del Cerro]
Uruguay [Club de Golf del Uruguay]
USA
Augusta National
Crystal Downs
Cypress Point
Green Hills
Haggin Oaks
Meadow Club
Northwood
Ohio State University [Gray]
Ohio State University [Scarlet]
Pasatiempo
Sharp Park
University of Michigan
Valley Club of Montecito


How much is/was original AMaC and how much is a re-model or tweaks by him at some stage is debatable but to places he worked in GB&I you could probably add -


Western-Super-Mare
Broadway
Malvern (The Worcestershire)
Walsall
Stanmore
Halifax
Nelson
South Moor
Crosslands Heath
Blairgowrie
Grange-over-Sands
West Herts
Bingley St Ives
Headingly
Harrogate
Pollok
Seaton Carew
Muskerry
Rhayader (NLE)


atb
















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