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Niall C

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"The wrong side of the tracks" down Ayrshire way
« on: August 27, 2020, 08:05:15 AM »
On the other thread regarding Royal Troon's CG rating their has been much comparison between RT and Prestwick, Turnberry and even Western but no chat about the courses on the other side of the railway line. In that stretch of coastline you have 13 links courses between Irvine Bogside and Prestwick St Nich's most of which have held the Open, Open qualifiers and Scottish Opens as well as numerous top amateur tournaments but you wouldn't necessarily know it in terms of what gets discussed on here.

Does that illustrate the groups prejudice in terms of sea views or is it because they are so inferior to those mentioned ?

Niall

JJShanley

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Re: "The wrong side of the tracks" down Ayrshire way
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2020, 08:43:44 AM »
All being well I'll be playing 36 at Irvine (Bogside), 18 at Western Gailes, and 36 at Prestwick in mid-September. Irvine looks like a blast. (I played Dundonald with my late father in 2015, which I enjoyed.) This has turned from a single-round away day postponed twice because of Covid into my summer holiday. From the research I had done, I could see myself visiting the west from the Land of Salt and Sauce on an annual basis.


Do tourists visit Ayrshire in the same way they visit East Lothian? It can't be any less convenient to get from GLA to the Ayrshire Coast than it is from EDI to East Lothian. The coast line is about the same length as well (although Dunbar is a further few miles away past North Berwick).

Tom_Doak

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Re: "The wrong side of the tracks" down Ayrshire way
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2020, 08:47:17 AM »
Niall:


If the reason those courses are overlooked is because of the views, then it's not a new development.  I have only seen a couple of them because even in the 1980's, no one particularly recommended them as worth seeing.  I assumed that the ground itself was not as compelling.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: "The wrong side of the tracks" down Ayrshire way
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2020, 11:53:54 AM »
I think Irvine Bogside and (Glasgow) Gailes are two incredibly underrated courses.


Bogside has some really cool quirk and some wonderfully strategic holes. Probably only let down by some over-simple Braid green complexes.

Mark Pearce

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Re: "The wrong side of the tracks" down Ayrshire way
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2020, 12:21:33 PM »
I think Irvine Bogside and (Glasgow) Gailes are two incredibly underrated courses.


Bogside has some really cool quirk and some wonderfully strategic holes. Probably only let down by some over-simple Braid green complexes.
I agree about Glasgow Gailes.  On my one visit I was more impressed than I expected.  The short par 4 in the middle (is it the 9th or 10th) is a contender for one of the best short par 4s in the country, and there are lots of good short par 4s in Scotland.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Jeff Johnston

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Re: "The wrong side of the tracks" down Ayrshire way
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2020, 12:24:51 PM »
Other than the championship course at Royal Troon, in that area I've only played Dundonald (agree with the 'fun' assessment above) and Prestwick St Nick's (ok but wouldn't be fussed to return). I can well imagine that there is a lot of v good golf to be had across the slew of courses in that bit of coast.

For a v entertaining (and illuminating) look at the more blue-collar history of Ayrshire golf (the 'wrong side of the tracks' phrase is used in there as well), I can recommend an episode of the 'McKellar's Stories' podcast, titled 'The Bartonholm Three' from 23 April this year. Some on here may have read the background story in McKellar magazine as well. Podcast is c 30 mins and well worth a listen.

Niall C

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Re: "The wrong side of the tracks" down Ayrshire way
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2020, 05:38:30 PM »
Jeff


The story of Hammy McInally and the others is well known. One of my favourite stories about him is the one where he's playing in an early round of the amateur against an American. As most Americans tend to be, he was being very polite and trying to make polite conversation as they went round and getting no joy. Eventually he says to Hammy, "I see you don't play with any woods" and McInally says "oh aye, I'm saving them for tomorrow when I'm playing in the next round". End of conversation. From memory I don't think he played Walker Cup even though he was clearly good enough. Also, he played also on the Ardeer course that is NLE.


Niall

Niall C

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Re: "The wrong side of the tracks" down Ayrshire way
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2020, 05:46:42 PM »
Niall:


If the reason those courses are overlooked is because of the views, then it's not a new development.  I have only seen a couple of them because even in the 1980's, no one particularly recommended them as worth seeing.  I assumed that the ground itself was not as compelling.


Tom


If I recall you were getting a lot of advice back then from Brian Morgan who was a photographer so it's maybe no surprise he pointed you towards the more scenic courses !


In terms of the landforms, there is nothing particularly spectacular or wild as you'd expect being more inland but Gailes has a bit of elevational change and some really nice movement in some of the fairways while most are quite subtle. The strongest part of the course is probably the greens.


Dundonald is a big bruiser of a modern course but has some nice stuff on it all the same. Barassie is a bit flatter and Bogside has a fair bit of stuff going on albeit I think it's on a smaller site. Plenty of good material to work with and indeed when Glasgow GC developed Gailes they turned down the land that is now Western to build Gailes. You could argue that Western is a better site although I'm not so sure, but locally Gailes is considered the better course.


Niall

Niall C

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Re: "The wrong side of the tracks" down Ayrshire way
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2020, 05:49:10 PM »
Ally/Mark


I'm clearly biased when it comes to Gailes but Bogside I'd very much like to get back to and the same for Barassie and Prestwick St Nich's which I haven't played for too long.


Niall

Clyde Johnson

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Re: "The wrong side of the tracks" down Ayrshire way
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2020, 06:07:10 PM »
Bogside has a couple of very cool/different short-fours, back-to-back if I remember correctly...they make it a worthwhile stop-off alone!


Gailes has a very good set of links greens - I had forgotten that, until we played a couple of years back Niall.


I wouldn't be too fussed about Barassie, though perhaps that's because the new holes to the north are a little awkward.

Niall C

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Re: "The wrong side of the tracks" down Ayrshire way
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2020, 06:34:54 PM »
Clyde


I agree about the new holes at Barassie. I recall playing them when they had not long opened. A few weeks later I was round at Machrihanish staying at a B&B when I got chatting to the couple next to me at breakfast. Barassie got mentioned and I was just about to pass a few unflattering comments about the new holes when the gentlemen I was talking to stated with great pride how he'd been part of the committee that designed them ! Needless to say it's not the new that I want to go back and see.


Niall


 

Ken Moum

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Re: "The wrong side of the tracks" down Ayrshire way
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2020, 12:22:15 AM »
Ally/Mark


I'm clearly biased when it comes to Gailes but Bogside I'd very much like to get back to and the same for Barassie and Prestwick St Nich's which I haven't played for too long.


Niall


Well, when Lavera and I were staying Irvine, some lovely chap saw to it that we got to play Glasgow, and we even got to leave our vehicle in the car park while we walked over to Dundonald to see the Women's Scottish Open.


On the same trip we played Prestwick on a nearly empty course and played East Renfrewshire in a comp. paired with the Ladies Captain and her husband.  He was a member at Western Gailes.  ;D


But I distinctly remember looking at Bogside while we were on bicycle ride from Irvine to Largs and back, IIRC, and thinking we were missing something by not playing.


It is definitely on my list of places to play whenever we get back.


FWIW, anyone looking for accomodations in the area, Braidmead House in Irvine is an excellent B&B in an 1850s sea captain's home.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2020, 12:31:13 AM by Ken Moum »
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Jeff Johnston

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Re: "The wrong side of the tracks" down Ayrshire way
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2020, 06:57:27 AM »
Jeff


The story of Hammy McInally and the others is well known. One of my favourite stories about him is the one where he's playing in an early round of the amateur against an American. As most Americans tend to be, he was being very polite and trying to make polite conversation as they went round and getting no joy. Eventually he says to Hammy, "I see you don't play with any woods" and McInally says "oh aye, I'm saving them for tomorrow when I'm playing in the next round". End of conversation. From memory I don't think he played Walker Cup even though he was clearly good enough. Also, he played also on the Ardeer course that is NLE.


v good Niall! going by the podcast, that was not out of character for Hammy.

Ardeer gets a mention as well, including the demise of its original 9 hole track in the early 1900s - largely due to a persistent black sludge forming over the course from residue / waste from the adjacent coal mines. Different days.....

MKrohn

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Re: "The wrong side of the tracks" down Ayrshire way
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2020, 07:05:58 AM »
Having spent some time playing in Ayrshire last year, I'm disappointed that a trip to "Bogside" wasn't included in our itinerary. I will remedy if I ever return.

Niall C

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Re: "The wrong side of the tracks" down Ayrshire way
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2020, 09:29:19 AM »
Ken


That was a most enjoyable day. I was actually thinking of you the other day............when I was trying to tidy up the various unused clubs I have that were situated in the corner of my room. ;D


Jeff


I don't know where they got that chat about Ardeer but it's nonsense. The course was situated on land owned by the adjacent chemical plant and they took it back to form a car park. The club then moved to an inland site where they still are. For all that the course was a humble nine holer for most of its time ( I think it was a 18 holer at one point) it was certainly associated with some great players. Originally laid out by 3 time Open winning Jamie Anderson who was the first greenkeeper, Willie Fernie (1883 Open winner) then became the professional for a short period before going to Troon. During his time and later he made various changes to the course. Then of course you have Hammy etc.


MKrohn


Which courses did you play ?


Niall


 

MKrohn

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Re: "The wrong side of the tracks" down Ayrshire way
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2020, 05:24:57 PM »



MKrohn


Which courses did you play ?


Niall


Niall,


I was a late starter on the trip, I tacked it onto the front end of a US tour so I didn't have much input into the itinerary.


We stayed at the Marine Hotel (I would have preferred an Airbnb), played Troon, Prestwick SN, Prestwick, Dundonald, Kilmarnock Barassie, I missed Western Gailes however the other lads played. We were fortunate with Turnberry, arrived on an absolutely filthy day, sideways rain etc, they said, come back tomorrow, we can fit you in.


Have followed the discussion on Troon, still haven't quite figured out where I stand, watching the women's Open, I couldn't remember a lot of holes which is usually not a good indicator.


Headed down to Lytham/Southport/Formby afterwards, hit the highlights down there, some wonderful golf, really liked the area and will hopefully be back post Rona.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The wrong side of the tracks" down Ayrshire way
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2020, 09:26:29 AM »



MKrohn


Which courses did you play ?


Niall


Niall,


I was a late starter on the trip, I tacked it onto the front end of a US tour so I didn't have much input into the itinerary.


We stayed at the Marine Hotel (I would have preferred an Airbnb), played Troon, Prestwick SN, Prestwick, Dundonald, Kilmarnock Barassie, I missed Western Gailes however the other lads played. We were fortunate with Turnberry, arrived on an absolutely filthy day, sideways rain etc, they said, come back tomorrow, we can fit you in.


Have followed the discussion on Troon, still haven't quite figured out where I stand, watching the women's Open, I couldn't remember a lot of holes which is usually not a good indicator.


Headed down to Lytham/Southport/Formby afterwards, hit the highlights down there, some wonderful golf, really liked the area and will hopefully be back post Rona.


I'm assuming from your post you didn't think that much of the other Ayrshire courses either. Fair comment ?


Niall

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: "The wrong side of the tracks" down Ayrshire way
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2020, 09:32:12 AM »
I haven’t seen Barassie but as I said previously, Gailes and Bogside I found excellent and underrated.... Of the others on “the wrong side”, I was a little disappointed with Dundonald but Prestwick St.Nicholas was a fun round with some good stuff. Just don’t go in with huge expectations.


As for “the right side” of the tracks, I thought Western Gailes was perhaps a tad overrated. I see M&E are in there at the moment doing tees, green surrounds and bunkers.


Ally

MKrohn

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Re: "The wrong side of the tracks" down Ayrshire way
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2020, 09:04:49 PM »



MKrohn


Which courses did you play ?


Niall


Niall,


I was a late starter on the trip, I tacked it onto the front end of a US tour so I didn't have much input into the itinerary.


We stayed at the Marine Hotel (I would have preferred an Airbnb), played Troon, Prestwick SN, Prestwick, Dundonald, Kilmarnock Barassie, I missed Western Gailes however the other lads played. We were fortunate with Turnberry, arrived on an absolutely filthy day, sideways rain etc, they said, come back tomorrow, we can fit you in.


Have followed the discussion on Troon, still haven't quite figured out where I stand, watching the women's Open, I couldn't remember a lot of holes which is usually not a good indicator.


Headed down to Lytham/Southport/Formby afterwards, hit the highlights down there, some wonderful golf, really liked the area and will hopefully be back post Rona.


I'm assuming from your post you didn't think that much of the other Ayrshire courses either. Fair comment ?


Niall


Perhaps you are correct Niall.


I try and not go to places with inflated expectations, as some courses whilst fantastic are often never able to live up to what you have imagined (in a book/movie sort of way).


I grew up in Australia when Greg Norman was dominating, I play golf because of Norman and whilst he may not be everyone's cup of tea these days (including me) going to Turnberry (86) and Troon (89) it was going to be difficult not to have expectations lifted.


I wish I was like you guys and better at explaining what I liked and didn't, of the courses we played in Ayrshire, Prestwick was my favourite by the length of the straight and equal with Lytham on the UK trip for "my" enjoyment.


The other courses I mentioned are fine but when you come from the asre end of the world to play, I wouldn't structure a trip around Ayrshire golf or perhaps given the freedom to choose the itinerary would certainly lose a couple (PSN/KB) to double up at others. Effectively this is only revealed after you have actually played them.


I was desperate to love Turnberry however in the end I didn't and Troon was behind Turnberry. This is not to say they aren't wonderful places to play, I just didn't get the same buzz coming off the course as I have done playing out on Long Island or the sand belt.


Post golf discussions with the other boys had me in my own camp regarding Turnberry.

Ben Stephens

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Re: "The wrong side of the tracks" down Ayrshire way
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2020, 04:38:44 AM »
Niall,


Have you played Troon Lochgreen? its a good municipal course and probably has the longest first three holes that I have played. Value for money it is great when I played it a while back.


Cheers
Ben

Niall C

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Re: "The wrong side of the tracks" down Ayrshire way
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2020, 04:37:55 PM »
Ben


Yes, played all three muni's. Lochgreen was the first course Nicklaus played when he tried to qualify for his first Open. Flattish compared to the other two. The Fullarton is pretty short at a par 62 or something but some longish par 3's if I recall. Quite entertaining but the one I like the best is the Darley which is over much more interesting ground, even if they have mucked about with it a bit. Largely tourist free and full of locals and very popular.


Niall

Niall C

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Re: "The wrong side of the tracks" down Ayrshire way
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2020, 04:40:45 PM »
MKrohn,


I know what you mean by expectations. BTW pairing Prestwick and Lytham is interesting. Not really natural bed fellows if you know what I mean both have a sense of history.


Niall

JJShanley

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Re: "The wrong side of the tracks" down Ayrshire way
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2020, 06:58:53 AM »
My September 2020 visit to Irvine (bounce), Western Gailes (stapleford), and Prestwick (bounce) was good fun. In fact I just signed up for events at WG and Prestwick in May 2021.


My only gripes with Western Gailes were (1) that it did feel (based on a single play in Stapleford format) that tee shots seemed to require one fade after another, (2) the walk-backs got rather old hole after hole, and (3) the M&E bunkering looked daft. The par 3 at the south end of the course (#13) really could be repositioned to at least remove two such instances, but those are minor gripes. I am excited to get back in May.


I found Irvine really good fun during my two rounds. Ally's points about the greens are accurate. There's a couple of holes that I'm not sure work. I'm all for blind holes, but 6 seemed contrived. (Birdie-Bogey that day, for the record.) There's not much you can do though in that part of the property. 13 has a great blind tee shot (that I messed up twice thinking I couldn't possibly aim that far left) but that is let down by a pedestrian fairway that had the appeal of a a driving range. Those two holes are right by the SSSI, so perhaps there's only so much they can do, but without that context they were just a bit off. That said, I think the holes from there on in are a delight. 17 is a wild ride that reminded me of Braid Hills (of which I am a fan).


Irvine has two sub-300 yard par fours on the front nine (4 and 5) that are conceivably drivable. 4 has a long, narrow, elevated green with OB on the left, but with room right to hit anything from a 6 iron to a 3 wood. 5 struck me initially as more spectacular with a more viable option to drive the green. I imagine an accomplished player could reach it with a 3 wood (or less). The morning driver ended in the junk on the left; the after shot ended with a gimmee birdie. The sensible play for me is probably iron-wedge. 4 seemed the more interesting hole. Thinking back, it reminds me of a more polished version of Braid Hills 3rd hole, for those who know that course, in that you can go for green but that you most likely going to have a delicate (and blind) approach in, even if only from 30 yards.


Three (350 yards, with what I understand is the prevailing wind) is another hole I wasn't really sure about. You really only have a small neck through which you could run the ball to drive the green or end up in gorse (right), bunker (center), or a large gully (left). The 100-yard walk back from the 2nd green to the 3rd tee is a bit annoying. You could have a Redan-adjacent par three instead by simply building new tees nearer the 2nd green, which would in turn could give you room to make 1, 2, and 18 a little less cramped than they are right now.


Irvine is similar to my current home club in East Lothian (former Open Final qualifying venue, history of accomplished amateurs, unusual scorecard, flat greens) although with greater elevation change. I thought it a fun day and would go back on the same terms as I did in September.


I've nothing new to say about Prestwick that no one has previously said except "I enjoyed it enormously and would go back at any opportunity."

Niall C

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Re: "The wrong side of the tracks" down Ayrshire way
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2020, 05:29:13 PM »
JJ


I endorse your comments on Bogside. At the top of this thread I said I'd been once and that was decades ago. Well I played there on a twilight type deal probably about the time you were there and I really enjoyed it. In fact I tried to sign up for their winter membership deal but was too late unfortunately.


Re Western, I haven't been for a couple of years so will need to check out the new work in the new year.


Niall

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