News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Flags & Flagsticks
« on: December 06, 2020, 10:16:28 PM »
Has the USGA done any studies on visibility of flags and flagsticks? 

Why do I ask? My semi-private " club" with 3 courses in an active adult 55+ community has many members with vision problems- macular degeneration, retina detachment and glaucoma. We use white or yellow flagsticks and red, white & yellow flags for hole locations. Some, without taking a survey, would like striped flagsticks and/or checkerboard flags to improve visibility. I'm one of those affected. 
« Last Edit: December 06, 2020, 10:27:48 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Flags & Flagsticks
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2020, 11:29:06 PM »
I have done my own study, from years and years of taking photos of golf courses.


And I will swear to you that yellow flags are more visible than white, and way more visible than red.  An old photographer friend of mine used to take yellow flags with him and have the course switch out when he came to shoot there.


I always liked the black-and-white striped flagsticks, too, but I am not sure if they really show up any better from 150 yards away . . . I am never really looking for the flagstick, just the flag.


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flags & Flagsticks
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2020, 01:44:10 AM »
I find yellow flags hard to see, especially in winter when grass is dormant or half way there. I prefer red.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

AChao

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flags & Flagsticks
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2020, 04:11:10 AM »
I get the same ... from me and another family member ... both of us are losing are sight ... yellow sticks out most and then white for us ...

I have done my own study, from years and years of taking photos of golf courses.


And I will swear to you that yellow flags are more visible than white, and way more visible than red.  An old photographer friend of mine used to take yellow flags with him and have the course switch out when he came to shoot there.


I always liked the black-and-white striped flagsticks, too, but I am not sure if they really show up any better from 150 yards away . . . I am never really looking for the flagstick, just the flag.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flags & Flagsticks New
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2020, 04:16:12 AM »
Contrasts and background. Dark background, dark coloured flag, not so good. Light background, light coloured flag, again not so good. Not personally so fond of different coloured flags for front-middle-back, would prefer just the one colour.

As to the colour of the flagstick, for ladies events at the course I mostly play pink flagsticks have been used for a couple of years now and are sometimes left out for a few days afterwards. The number of positive comments regarding improved flag stick visibility have been a surprise, especially when received from some men perhaps usually considered to be on the chauvinist side of the fence.
atb
« Last Edit: December 17, 2020, 07:42:58 AM by Thomas Dai »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flags & Flagsticks
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2020, 09:36:17 AM »

for ladies events at the course I mostly play pink flagsticks....
atb


Lots of ways to read that....;)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

john_stiles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flags & Flagsticks
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2020, 10:59:12 AM »




Found one reference that.....'The brightest, most visible color you can wear during daylight hours is fluorescent yellow-green. Why? Human eyes are built to be most sensitive to that particular wavelength of light (~550 nanometers), at least during the day.'


It seems most construction crews wear an orange or optic (fluorescent) yellow. The tennis ball is almost an optic yellow which I thought that the 'tennis world' picked as best for a ball moving over 100 mph, or maybe that is just a selection for TV viewing. Hunters wear orange regardless of surroundings, or time of year.


For quite a while, maybe still,  doesn't the the USGA typically prefer yellow?


I lean towards yellow or white.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flags & Flagsticks
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2020, 11:47:55 AM »
Yellow Out and Red In is what almost every course in the UK used to have... before they started getting all fancy with the different colour for front, middle, back (which I despise)...


That said, I’m quite fond of blue as a different colour to yellow or red (although it does tend to be slightly less visible)... less fond of white.


Yellow the most visible.


Has to be 9 and 9 though.

Matt Wharton

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Flags & Flagsticks
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2020, 11:50:16 AM »
I seem to recall nearly 30 years ago browsing through a copy of a PGA Tournament Manual - book for PGA Club Professionals.  Stated people who suffer from color blindness are able to distinguish yellow from a green background, thus the recommendation for yellow flags and flagsticks.  I have never checked the validity of that statement, and to someone's point above, in the winter months when green is not a dominant background color this benefit would be diminished.
Matthew Wharton, CGCS, MG
Idle Hour CC
Lexington, KY

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Flags & Flagsticks
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2020, 01:43:33 PM »
I seem to recall nearly 30 years ago browsing through a copy of a PGA Tournament Manual - book for PGA Club Professionals.  Stated people who suffer from color blindness are able to distinguish yellow from a green background, thus the recommendation for yellow flags and flagsticks.  I have never checked the validity of that statement, and to someone's point above, in the winter months when green is not a dominant background color this benefit would be diminished.
Red isn’t good because of the red/green color-blindness. Isn’t that the most common type?

I agree that yellow is probably easiest to see, though against a dense background (not just sky, not a large white McMansion) white is fine too.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

JohnVDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flags & Flagsticks
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2020, 01:56:00 PM »
Has the USGA done any studies on visibility of flags and flagsticks? 



I don’t believe a study has been done, but I know the USGA provides black/white flagsticks for all championships.  I believe that they when with Yellow/Black checkerboard flags for the Senior open a few years ago for visibility, but all flags at USGA championships are now Red, probably for marketing reasons rather than visibility.

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flags & Flagsticks
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2020, 02:39:52 PM »
Don't know about golf studies but I believe the high visibility yellow that is very common for bicyclists is a result of careful study.  I think blaze orange has been studied a great deal as well.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Flags & Flagsticks
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2020, 02:46:37 PM »


 I’m quite fond of blue as a different colour to yellow or red (although it does tend to be slightly less visible)... less fond of white.



Blue is the absolute worst for photos . . . it is very very difficult to see.  It drives me bonkers when I see blue flags.  Might as well use green . . . although I have never seen a green flag on a golf course.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flags & Flagsticks
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2020, 03:09:27 PM »
Blue does photo badly.... But I like the colour and there is no issue seeing the flag whilst playing.


After all, it shouldn’t all be about how it photos (as you might say yourself).


That said, I probably like it as it’s used for the back nine at Portmarnock and so I chose it for the new nine at Carne. Think I have bad memories of white from poor third nines and pitch ‘n’ putts in Scotland.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flags & Flagsticks
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2020, 03:24:23 PM »
Anyone favour wicker baskets? If so what colour?
Plus flagsticks with spring at the bottom to allow for flexing in the wind.
:)

Atb

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flags & Flagsticks
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2020, 04:01:30 PM »
Merion's " wicker" baskets are steel and are removed every night.


I like the striped flag pole even though it's red. 


No mention of cost.



https://ftw.usatoday.com/2013/06/2013-us-open-merion-golf-club-wicker-baskets




https://en.paperblog.com/the-origin-of-merion-s-wicker-baskets-558080/
« Last Edit: December 07, 2020, 04:17:12 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flags & Flagsticks
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2020, 04:05:05 PM »
Yellow, pins and flags...


if good enough for The Masters, who cares about the USGA?  Or Simply go with any of the Maritime flags... they have some interesting meanings








« Last Edit: December 07, 2020, 04:18:51 PM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flags & Flagsticks
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2020, 04:59:54 PM »
At Coronado GC we used to have red, white and blue for front, middle, back. Our Senior golfers had a hard time seeing the blue ones so they switched to black and yellow checkered; much more visible!
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Drew Maliniak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flags & Flagsticks
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2020, 05:31:11 PM »
Yellow is definitely the easiest, but it's also the Times New Roman of flag colors.

I would love to hear about some unique flags. It seems like an easy way to stand-out. But I guess flags take a beating. You would need to rotate them out every few months to stay looking sharp.

The flag sticks at Philly Cricket and Baltusrol are a work of art (cloth and wood).
« Last Edit: December 07, 2020, 05:45:07 PM by Drew Maliniak »

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Flags & Flagsticks
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2020, 10:36:39 PM »
Yellow is definitely the easiest, but it's also the Times New Roman of flag colors.

I would love to hear about some unique flags.
Given the comments above (and I’ve hunted, too, mostly as a kid as my dad was a big hunter), why no hunter orange flags? Just too garish or out of place? (The color orange, except on Rickie Fowler, is dramatically under-represented in golf.) Would a bright hunter orange flag stick out more than a yellow one? Against light and dark backgrounds?
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Adam G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flags & Flagsticks
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2020, 10:51:49 PM »
The red and white striped flags at Boston Golf Club (the flag of sons of liberty and also the club's logo) are pretty awesome and unique.


« Last Edit: December 07, 2020, 10:56:04 PM by Adam Guren »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Flags & Flagsticks
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2020, 12:14:15 AM »
Given the comments above (and I’ve hunted, too, mostly as a kid as my dad was a big hunter), why no hunter orange flags? Just too garish or out of place? (The color orange, except on Rickie Fowler, is dramatically under-represented in golf.) Would a bright hunter orange flag stick out more than a yellow one? Against light and dark backgrounds?


I just don't think anyone likes how orange looks.  Too non-traditional.  I've seen it a couple of times though.


You could also go with neon pink for visibility, but I have never seen that!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Flags & Flagsticks
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2020, 12:20:41 AM »
Yellow is definitely the easiest, but it's also the Times New Roman of flag colors.

I would love to hear about some unique flags. It seems like an easy way to stand-out. But I guess flags take a beating. You would need to rotate them out every few months to stay looking sharp.

The flag sticks at Philly Cricket and Baltusrol are a work of art (cloth and wood).


Lots of clubs have spent lots of money on this front trying to be distinctive.  Most of the wooden flagsticks I've seen do not really function that well, but rich guys think they are the bees' knees.


The most unusual flags I've seen [for better or worse, as tastes vary]:


Wind socks at The Challenge at Manele
Double pennants at LACC
Wicker baskets at Merion [not as rare in 1920, you see them in old photos of SFGC and some other courses]
Very short flagsticks at Secession


Those are the ones that come to mind right away, I'm sure I've missed some.


My favorite ever was on a course I saw in Zambia last year.  I could see it from a distance but was not sure what I was looking at.  When I got up close, I found that it was some kind of tree branch or plant, with a single, very large leaf near the top of it for a flag.  But it was just on the one hole!

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flags & Flagsticks
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2020, 03:51:05 AM »
Seems like flags, yardage markers, sprinkler heads etc would seem good opportunities for sponsorship ....... by local opticians!
Never seen a course with 200/150/100 yds to the bar markers on the 9th/18th though. Might be a popular addition amongst some thirsty folks?
:)
atb
PS -I remember seeing the Zambia stick and leaf photo. :)



Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flags & Flagsticks
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2020, 10:35:17 AM »
Some know that I serve the Phoenix Fire Department, and was President of the Phoenix Fire Foundation for many years. Fire service is sort of in my blood, even though never a firefighter. Yellow is most visible, and this is born by many studies. However — the kicker — is that when I brought this up to Chief Alan Brunicini (now deceased) he said to me, "Forrest, I once asked God what color fire trucks are supposed to be, and she said 'red'..." Alan even painted the federally funded airport trucks in Phoenix Red — and we are still the only city in the U.S. to do so...we get them from the factory (O.S.H.A. Yellow) and then re-paint them with our own local funds. All because of Chief Brunicini and his commitment to traditional red for fire trucks.

To golf — Par Aide Tournament Sticks (black/white striped) + Yellow and Black flags. That is my contribution here. Simply, this offers the best contrast and works in most backgrounds. Backgrounds are the key. You normally need both a bright (lighter) color and a darker color on both sticks and flags.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com