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Tom Bacsanyi

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2020, 08:13:58 PM »
14 is a tough one.


Didnít the runoff get worse when they put the park and athletic area in off the right ?


If Pat_B's comment is true, why wouldn't you look at having an intercepter swale and drop box to carry surface run-on flows into an underground system and eliminate that input to teh water balance in teh subject areas? 


IS the course name top secret for some reason???


I'll spill the beans. The course in question is Augusta National. Too many balls with "organic matter" on them at the Masters...
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Steve Lang

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2020, 08:45:18 PM »
 8)  Yeah and the barrrancas next to the arroyos down in GA ::)
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

David Ober

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2020, 09:00:39 PM »
14 is a tough one.


Didnít the runoff get worse when they put the park and athletic area in off the right ?


If Pat_B's comment is true, why wouldn't you look at having an intercepter swale and drop box to carry surface run-on flows into an underground system and eliminate that input to teh water balance in teh subject areas? 


IS the course name top secret for some reason???


I've only been a member three years and this is my first year on the greens committee. Just trying to keep a low profile.

Tom Bacsanyi

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2020, 11:06:52 PM »
8)  Yeah and the barrrancas next to the arroyos down in GA ::)


"Let's go to Tiger on 12. Oh no, that one has found Rae's Arroyo..."
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

archie_struthers

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2020, 12:20:05 AM »
 8) 8) 8)


Having been MIA and not seeing this query figures. Got some personal experience on this one!


We built Twisted Dune to sell the dirt to Atlantic City. The golf course was just the end product of the operation. Our 265 acre site was an anomaly for coastal South Jersey, just  ten minutes from the beach but 70-90 feet to first water.  Atlantic City needed millions of tons of fill to charge the  H-Tract where the State was building the connector tunnel and selling the land surrounding it to Steve Wynn to build a spectacular new casino (or two). There wasn't enough fill in the area to service this need and was the genesis of our unusual project.


"Twisted" sold off millions of tons of fill to fund construction of the golf course, a reversal of the process Pete Dye used at Whistling Straits. Where they trucked it in we trucked it out. Our elevation changes came from digging down not piling up. In the process we supplied Atlantic City CC with 500,000 tons of fill to build up a bunch of the hole. These holes didn't drain and were often under danger from salt water intrusion from the inland waterway that is to the east of the club. The difference between the capping we are talking about and a massive infill is different, and perhaps Tom D will comment on his memory of that process. When we sold that first 500,000 tons of dirt to ACCC  we were well on our way to my goal at Twisted Dune of having the dirt sales offset the costs of construction.


As usual I digress so back to the question. Our soils were perfect for building roads and  charging the swamp where they built the Borgata  and Tunnel but not so great as a growing medium or so I thought at the time. Because of that I couldn't resist capping our fairways with approximately 14-18 inches as we would unearth it during our mining process. To this day I'm not sure if it was the right decision. Even thought the price was infinitesimal for us compared to trucking it in, some of the drainage issues that still exist at times might be attributed my decision to cap the fairways.  My amigo Don Mahaffey just outlined some issues involved in this process and as usual always is on point.  As an aside I always read his answers to questions with great interest! His knowledge of all things c consistently teaches me. We are so fortunate to have him check in here at GCA.


Love this subject but getting sleepy> would love to explore the difference between capping and mass fills like we are currently seeing at the Union League (Dana Fry) and what Atlantic City (Tom Doak)  did twenty years ago to protect the course from flooding. It also leads to a discussion of drill and fill processes on greens and whether our supers here think they work given the cost and invasive nature of same 8)


 Great topic!


 
 
« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 12:27:59 AM by archie_struthers »

Robert Mercer Deruntz

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #30 on: November 24, 2020, 01:54:17 AM »
Having played the not yet named course since the mid-70's, I know know the issues well.  Big rains used to flood several holes on the course a couple hundred yards up from the 14th, and as the floodwater was released from the dam, it would saturate the low areas of the unnamed course.  The huge Eucalyptus trees  have always been on the surrounding properties , and even if the ones between 14 and 15 were chopped down, it wouldn't do much to improve the 14th fairway, since the creek flows on the opposite side along the property edge before crossing the fairway in the driving zone. 
At Cedarbrook Club on Long Island in the fall of 1990, the new superintendent, who was young and very practical with a tiny budget, vertadrained the greens for his first aerification,  and then did that in the swampy areas.  After a couple of years of vertadraining,  the swampy areas had vastly improved drainage.

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #31 on: November 25, 2020, 06:45:40 AM »
David being a member of a club that got rid of its greens committee 10 years ago, what does a greens committee actually do these days?
Cave Nil Vino

David Ober

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #32 on: November 25, 2020, 11:08:15 AM »
David being a member of a club that got rid of its greens committee 10 years ago, what does a greens committee actually do these days?


As a member of the committee, I "serve at the pleasure of the chairperson who serves at the pleasure of the president." LOLZ

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #33 on: November 25, 2020, 04:28:56 PM »
14 is a tough one.


Didnít the runoff get worse when they put the park and athletic area in off the right ?


If Pat_B's comment is true, why wouldn't you look at having an intercepter swale and drop box to carry surface run-on flows into an underground system and eliminate that input to teh water balance in teh subject areas? 


IS the course name top secret for some reason???


I've only been a member three years and this is my first year on the greens committee. Just trying to keep a low profile.


Seem to recall that a certain Mr. Ball had some ideas on this very matter nearly 12 years ago.  I think that he was a member of the green committee and the course, having a lot of upside, appeared to suffer from indifferent maintenance at that time- soft, spongy turf in many spots, a bit rough around the edges.  I wonder if you are not seeing a cumulative effect over many years.  The course didn't make an impression as being over-treed.  As I told my host, it could be the type of club I'd enjoy being a member.  If memory serves, he noted similar concerns re: the limitations of his role, i.e. speaking softly without the benefit of any stick.  Maybe Jeff Brauer's new book provides some useful suggestions for a productive green committee. 

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #34 on: November 25, 2020, 05:25:33 PM »
Lou is there such a thing as a productive greens committee? Course Managers / Superintendents are now highly trained professionals more than capable of managing their teams, balancing their budgets and producing sound business cases for projects, machinery purchase, etc.

My club got rid of the greens subcommittee when the course manager reported to the greens sub committee chairman (a dentist) who in turn reported to the new Secretary who happened to be a qualified greenkeeper. My understanding was the chair couldnít answer any of the Secretaryís technical questions!
Cave Nil Vino

Tim Martin

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2020, 06:07:59 PM »
Tough to paint all greens chairman/committees with the same broad brush. The best are invaluable to their respective clubs.

JMEvensky

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2020, 08:49:30 PM »

Tough to paint all greens chairman/committees with the same broad brush. The best are invaluable to their respective clubs.



I agree--the good ones run interference for the Super so he can do his job without getting nitpicked to death by the "dentists".

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2020, 04:00:08 AM »
Tough to paint all greens chairman/committees with the same broad brush. The best are invaluable to their respective clubs.


Tim by doing what? Thatís what Iím trying to find out? Our course manager produces newsletters, videos of work in progress, drone videos, etc showing us whatís being done and why. What there isnít is consultation with the membership, the Board makes strategic course decisions based on the advice of the course manager and the architect and where necessary the agronomist. The course manager sets the schedule, height of cut, green speeds, etc.
Cave Nil Vino

Thomas Dai

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2020, 08:21:03 AM »
Iím with Mark on this. Scrap green committees (and clubhouse etc committees too for that matter). Golf clubs generally run despite their committees not because of them. Hire professionals and let them do their jobs without interference by butchers and bakers and candlestick-makers (and dentists!).
Atb

Sean_A

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2020, 08:32:40 AM »
I don't know about this.  How does a club convey what it wants without some form of liaison? The staff must be answerable to someone so there needs to be a tool in place to do so. The issue is more about the lines of responsibility, not that there are club members acting as co-managers.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022:

Lou_Duran

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #40 on: November 26, 2020, 10:26:13 AM »
Mark C,


I generally feel as you do about committees as they tend to reflect the quality of the people who are drawn to such things (IMO, too often theorists vs. doers, well-meaning generalists who don't accept the limitations of their lightly acquired knowledge).  Yet, a small group of experienced golfers, say 3-5, with time to devote to understanding the objectives of the club and the ability to check their egos at the door can serve a useful purpose as Sean and JM noted.


Though not necessarily or directly in the purview of the green committee, I am aware of a very upscale member-owned Texas golf club which discovered in the past year or so $millions missing from its accounts (the miscreant, lacking funds to make payroll, finally called a board meeting to surface the problem).  Coming from a finance and accounting background, how the books were cooked for a few years without someone noticing is beyond my comprehension.  It is a club which used a corporate management structure and its members were probably too busy to essentially manage its own management company.  Hopefully its books were audited by a well-insured CPA firm and the members have some recourse.


A good green committee can serve to protect the deserving superintendent from the whims of the membership and the membership from an under-performing or crooked superintendent (e.g. if weeds or animal damage are rampant, yet the records show receipt and application of chemicals, a vigilant member may contact his counterparts at other area clubs to see if they're experiencing similar problems, and if not, start looking at the records themselves).


The committee can also serve to help modify plans and budgets to better address changes in conditions- e.g. if armadillos are going crazy after an ineffectual chemical application, instead of spending the budget for blowing clippings x/week, adjust to x-1 or 2 and maybe hire a pest control firm to handle the problem.  Take some of the heat of an overburdened superintendent; give support to some of the necessary decisions that at times have to be made on the fly.




David Ober

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #41 on: November 26, 2020, 11:47:58 AM »
I don't know about this.  How does a club convey what it wants without some form of liaison? The staff must be answerable to someone so there needs to be a tool in place to do so. The issue is more about the lines of responsibility, not that there are club members acting as co-managers.

Ciao


Exactly.


I love my club and want to be involved. I also love golf and our little (slumbering) gem of a course and I want to see how we are using our limited resources there.


I joined the committee to first learn. We'll see what happens from there....








Steve Lang

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #42 on: November 26, 2020, 12:05:20 PM »
 8)  and you don't think anyone will trace your gca.com postings?  good luck on that
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

David Ober

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #43 on: November 26, 2020, 01:02:58 PM »
8)  and you don't think anyone will trace your gca.com postings?  good luck on that


Doesn't really matter if they do. Just didn't necessarily want to broadcast it everywhere since I'm new.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #44 on: November 22, 2022, 03:38:13 PM »
David,

You're other thread reminded me of this one.  Given the course in question is not exactly a secret at this point, i'm curious if the club ever came up with a solution?

Kalen

David Ober

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #45 on: November 22, 2022, 04:28:53 PM »
David,

You're other thread reminded me of this one.  Given the course in question is not exactly a secret at this point, i'm curious if the club ever came up with a solution?

Kalen


Never happened. It's still a problem, but not one big enough that our (very fiscally conservative) club would be willing to spend $$$ on.

Pat Burke

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #46 on: November 23, 2022, 01:02:22 AM »
The real answer is significant tree removal. I just don't think that is in the cards. Oh well.


The trees off club property and surround elevations likely eliminate those options ?


Been a tough couple areas out there for a long time

Niall C

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #47 on: November 23, 2022, 07:35:43 AM »
I don't know about this.  How does a club convey what it wants without some form of liaison? The staff must be answerable to someone so there needs to be a tool in place to do so. The issue is more about the lines of responsibility, not that there are club members acting as co-managers.

Ciao


Very late to this conversation but agree with Sean. Staff not only need to be accountable to someone but also should be working to an overall remit provided by the members. It's not for committee to micro-manage but instead provide an oversight role and where necessary deal with any issues as they arise.


Niall

Niall C

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #48 on: November 23, 2022, 07:39:02 AM »
Lou is there such a thing as a productive greens committee? Course Managers / Superintendents are now highly trained professionals more than capable of managing their teams, balancing their budgets and producing sound business cases for projects, machinery purchase, etc.

My club got rid of the greens subcommittee when the course manager reported to the greens sub committee chairman (a dentist) who in turn reported to the new Secretary who happened to be a qualified greenkeeper. My understanding was the chair couldnít answer any of the Secretaryís technical questions!


Mark


Why on earth would a committee be reporting to the Secretary, surely it should be the other way about ?


Niall

archie_struthers

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #49 on: November 24, 2022, 09:28:35 AM »
 8) ;D


We capped Twisted Due with indigenous sand that we dug up but wouldn't do it again. Our costs were minimal compared to bringing it in and doing all the work associated. This being said it was probably a waste of time for many of the reasons given by others . As usual , I'm all in with Mahaffey as usual , he's so smart about all things drainage. 


Best to all , happy thanksgiving

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