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David Ober

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Cost to sandcap two holes?
« on: November 21, 2020, 06:38:24 PM »
Hola!


What would the approximate cost range be to sand cap two golf holes only? A 380 yard par four and a 490 yard par five. Assume a width of 50 yards for each. Assume 18(?) inches of sand cap.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2020, 06:52:40 PM »
Well, that's approximately 20,000 cubic yards of sand.  It could cost $10 per cubic yard or $50, depending on where you are.  Then you've got to install drainage and re-turf everything and [probably] fix the irrigation.  So, anywhere from $300,000 to $1m, depending on the cost of sand.


A big part of the cost here is that "18 inches" of sand.  How deep you need to go depends on the exact sand you use, and its moisture release curve.  But you can see why contractors and golf courses would like to cut it close to the bone!

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2020, 07:24:57 PM »
18" is about twice as much as a lot! $25/ton is a reasonable estimate.
Finding the sand would be your 2nd call, the first one should be to someone who can do it well.

Why 50 yards wide? How wide would you need to not miss?
Why 2 holes?
Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil & Tiger.

Tom Bacsanyi

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2020, 07:25:13 PM »
Hola!


What would the approximate cost range be to sand cap two golf holes only? A 380 yard par four and a 490 yard par five. Assume a width of 50 yards for each. Assume 18(?) inches of sand cap.


What's the reasoning behind the sand cap?


Also, required reading: https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/course-care/green-section-record/58/20/sand-capped-fairways-can-still-be-wet.html
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Don Mahaffey

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2020, 08:25:44 PM »
Tom B,
Basically what the article says is if you sand cap your have time do it correctly. 


Just like a sand based green needs surface drains and sub surface drainage, so does any area that is sand capped. 


Increasing infiltration by during a course medium doesnít change the need for surface drainage.
And since sand capping is done over heavy soils, there will be a distinct layer where the water will stop.  If there is no drainage system to carry it away, the sand cap will stay wet. 


Sand capping is the creation of a root zone system just as building a sand based green is, and short cuts will cause problems. 


I think the debate is either spending the money to build a sand cap system rootzone, or work with the native soil and thru shaping and drainage get the water off the playing surface. Either can work, and both will fail if not done correctly.

John Emerson

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2020, 11:53:15 PM »
Hola!


What would the approximate cost range be to sand cap two golf holes only? A 380 yard par four and a 490 yard par five. Assume a width of 50 yards for each. Assume 18(?) inches of sand cap.


18Ē of sand cap for a native soil could possibly be the silliest and most ludicrous thing Iíve ever heard of. 
ďThereís links golf, then everything else.Ē

Greg Chambers

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2020, 04:27:08 AM »
Hola!


What would the approximate cost range be to sand cap two golf holes only? A 380 yard par four and a 490 yard par five. Assume a width of 50 yards for each. Assume 18(?) inches of sand cap.


18Ē of sand cap for a native soil could possibly be the silliest and most ludicrous thing Iíve ever heard of.


Ulterior motive.
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.Ē

David Ober

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2020, 09:02:53 AM »
Hola!


What would the approximate cost range be to sand cap two golf holes only? A 380 yard par four and a 490 yard par five. Assume a width of 50 yards for each. Assume 18(?) inches of sand cap.


18Ē of sand cap for a native soil could possibly be the silliest and most ludicrous thing Iíve ever heard of.


I'm just an amateur with a thought. I now see that cost is prohibitive regardless of the amount.


We have two holes (especially) at our course that for several months during the late fall and all the way through the winter, become mushy, bare, mudball fests.


They are situated such that both their at the bottom/side of an arroyo and the shade from huge eucalyptus, etc, trees lining the fairways means for a far less than ideal turf condition.

John Emerson

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2020, 09:31:55 AM »
Hola!


What would the approximate cost range be to sand cap two golf holes only? A 380 yard par four and a 490 yard par five. Assume a width of 50 yards for each. Assume 18(?) inches of sand cap.


18Ē of sand cap for a native soil could possibly be the silliest and most ludicrous thing Iíve ever heard of.


I'm just an amateur with a thought. I now see that cost is prohibitive regardless of the amount.


We have two holes (especially) at our course that for several months during the late fall and all the way through the winter, become mushy, bare, mudball fests.


They are situated such that both their at the bottom/side of an arroyo and the shade from huge eucalyptus, etc, trees lining the fairways means for a far less than ideal turf condition.


You donít need sand or a trencher, you need a chainsaw.
ďThereís links golf, then everything else.Ē

Don Mahaffey

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2020, 09:50:45 AM »
David, the other obstacle to sand capping a portion of your course is the logistics involved. Haul roads, access to roads for large trucks...sand capping is a big PITA and would be even more so in a partial renovation.


Like others have alluded to, an honest and candid assessment of the situation will probably reveal the reasons why these areas stay wet.


Shade is huge, especially on warm season grasses where the shade weakened grass is always treated with a recuperative process that often means more irrigation. Get rid of the shade, and make sure you have ways to get the water off the surface and away from the high play areas. Chances are you have some storm drainage near by as it sounds like a low area of the course, tying into that and adding small golf drainage in slow surface draining areas is not expensive and does not require a golf contractor.

David Ober

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2020, 01:29:32 PM »
Hola!


What would the approximate cost range be to sand cap two golf holes only? A 380 yard par four and a 490 yard par five. Assume a width of 50 yards for each. Assume 18(?) inches of sand cap.


18Ē of sand cap for a native soil could possibly be the silliest and most ludicrous thing Iíve ever heard of.


I'm just an amateur with a thought. I now see that cost is prohibitive regardless of the amount.


We have two holes (especially) at our course that for several months during the late fall and all the way through the winter, become mushy, bare, mudball fests.


They are situated such that both their at the bottom/side of an arroyo and the shade from huge eucalyptus, etc, trees lining the fairways means for a far less than ideal turf condition.


You donít need sand or a trencher, you need a chainsaw.


Sigh...


Should've mentioned that that is not an option.

Tom Bacsanyi

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2020, 01:44:30 PM »
Can you use the arroyo as an exit for drain lines?
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

David Ober

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2020, 01:48:43 PM »
Can you use the arroyo as an exit for drain lines?


Yes, but fairly certain we already have decent drainage.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2020, 03:01:52 PM »
If drainage is good, then why sand cap?  And, I have seen fw improve by topdressing and/or coring out and drilling in sand, usually reserved for greens.  It takes longer, of course!  Maybe even tilling up and loosening the soil may help drainage penetration.  Pending soil tests, you might add sand or additives (although mixing sand and soil sometimes comes out like concrete.)  There are also those slit tiles that do seem to help (at least for a while, until thatch covers up the sand and they slow down) 


None are perfect solutions, but then again, neither is sand capping.  It fits in a whole host of other "innovations" similar to wonder drugs, that turn out to not necessarily ease maintenance, but just cause different maintenance (which might also be a minor annoyance for those 2 holes.)


BTW, whether you cut the sand in, like a USGA green dish, or allow it to feather out, really, really changes the quantity of sand.


Like others have said, if you do it, you need under drains, in herringbone patter, adapted to the topo.  You will probably end up adding a few catch basins for surface drainage.  You probably won't need 18".  If USGA greens drain at 12", why would you need more?  6-12", with most sand capped fw trending towards 6" for cost, unless it's water release curve needs more.


Also realize, the fw will probably block uphill side water from flowing naturally, and you may need some catch basins on the upper side of your fw, which is a good idea anyway.  Never want a lot of water to cross a fw, much like road engineers cut swales on both sides of a road, so the pavement only needs to drain what falls on it.


Lastly, its a good time to redesign the fw.  You should consider starting it further from the tee (which may necessitate new forward tees) and whether any specific hole needs the full 50 yards you propose, at least for the entire length of the fw.


Not sure you need irrigation as someone suggested.  But, at a minimum you need to raise those heads!  You will also find those two fw need more irrigation, at least in their formative years, so make sure your current or new irrigation controls allow these fw to be controlled on different stations than other holes.


In short, piece of cake!
« Last Edit: November 22, 2020, 03:07:20 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

David Ober

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2020, 03:59:33 PM »
The real answer is significant tree removal. I just don't think that is in the cards. Oh well.

Rob Marshall

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2020, 04:16:20 PM »
Why not?
"I used to get pissed at blowing leads until I quit having them" John Kavanaugh

Pat Burke

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2020, 06:04:06 PM »
Iím not certain, but believe I know the holes. Low area that stays in shade due to trees (not club property ) and in a low area surround by hills block the low winter sun


Itís also a cooler micro climate so is almost always heavy and damp.


When the Bermuda goes dormant and it gets wet, there was nowhere for the moisture to go but sit in the soil.


The creek and the fairways have been worked on in the past. When it rains heavy there is a lot of runoff from above the course and communities that can also overtop the banks


Itís a pretty tough spot. A natural drainage area that runs through the low lying course and out past the range




Of course, I made a huge assumption on the course. If Iím wrong,,,well




Never mind! :D

AChao

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2020, 04:36:40 AM »
Hi David,


I was on GC of a club not that far from you years ago and we did the equivalent of 4-5 fairways (I think) at 6" for around $1 million.  I recommended 12", but we couldn't afford that.  A really long time ago, I played Wade Hampton and they said they were going to spend around $1 million for a par 5 (with some additional work).  I'm guessing they did 12" or 18" though.


Good luck!


Best,
Andy

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2020, 09:25:02 AM »
When I first got in the biz, circa 1977, people would howl when I joked that someday, we would have USGA fairway specs.  And now.....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

David Ober

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2020, 10:23:53 AM »
Iím not certain, but believe I know the holes. Low area that stays in shade due to trees (not club property ) and in a low area surround by hills block the low winter sun


Itís also a cooler micro climate so is almost always heavy and damp.


When the Bermuda goes dormant and it gets wet, there was nowhere for the moisture to go but sit in the soil.


The creek and the fairways have been worked on in the past. When it rains heavy there is a lot of runoff from above the course and communities that can also overtop the banks


Itís a pretty tough spot. A natural drainage area that runs through the low lying course and out past the range




Of course, I made a huge assumption on the course. If Iím wrong,,,well




Never mind! :D


12 and 14. 12 isn't so bad except for up near the green and starting at about 130 yards out. 14 is just bad once we get any rain. Entire right portion of the fairway from the beginning of the fairway all the way to 60 yards short of the green.

Pat Burke

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2020, 12:49:03 PM »
14 is a tough one.


Didnít the runoff get worse when they put the park and athletic area in off the right ?

Kalen Braley

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2020, 01:29:43 PM »
Using some clues I think I figured out the course as well.  Not seeing many options there, especially in winter when the sun sits lower on the southern horizon...

David Ober

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2020, 04:58:35 PM »
Using some clues I think I figured out the course as well.  Not seeing many options there, especially in winter when the sun sits lower on the southern horizon...


Exactly. That's the real problem.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2020, 06:57:58 PM »
If I'm indeed looking at the right course...

Perhaps shift both segments of 14 fairway 10-15 yards to the left to reduce the amount of fairway on the wetter right hand side.  But if the trees on the left can't be touched either...

Other than that, take the issue to the appropriate committee to put together a RFP?

Steve Lang

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Re: Cost to sandcap two holes?
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2020, 07:42:28 PM »
14 is a tough one.


Didnít the runoff get worse when they put the park and athletic area in off the right ?


If Pat_B's comment is true, why wouldn't you look at having an intercepter swale and drop box to carry surface run-on flows into an underground system and eliminate that input to teh water balance in teh subject areas? 


IS the course name top secret for some reason???
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

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