[JESII]

The books do not show an accurate path. They simply confirm the slope(a) others may be able to determine themselves.


Simply saying obtaining the actual yardage from an outside source is accepted doesn’t mean it agrees with the spirit and intent of the rules.

[Lou_Duran]

The "spirit and intent of the rules" weren't handed down on a tablet at a specific point in time.  I am nearly sure that the original caddies did not give yardage, green gradients, psychological reinforcement, etc. to their lords.  Angelo did little more than carry Jack's bag.  Accepted practices evolve and, in my opinion, have gone way beyond the point where now it is not just the skill of the player but also that of the caddie that is being tested.


My main interest in this topic is not the use of a greens book or the course yardage books created and used by caddies.  My primary concern is the pace of play which I do believe is slowly killing the game.  There is absolutely no reason a three-ball should take five hours to complete 18 holes of golf, especially when losing balls is a rarity and shots that require an official to provide a ruling are also rather infrequent except to CYA.  In the events I've worked, especially USGA qualifiers, the interaction between player and caddie is often insufferable, resembling that we see on Tour.  As much as I like guys like Spieth, I hate the way they have to hold a board meeting with their caddie before pulling the trigger.  Except for on the greens, DJ is a breath of fresh air in this regard.

[JESII]

Lou,


I agree pace of play is the most important topic.


Also, I am not channeling Melvyn Morrow in my comment about yardage books...but once we’re allowing perfect information, it would be hypocritical to disallow it in one area...and I hate the whole concept of these green books.


A lot on the table. Not sure the key players are there.

[William_G]

these green reading books are just stupid
whoever first started them was only trying to help for sure
yet there is local knowledge and that should not be dismissed
now the only pro tournament that does it right is the Masters
thank you ANGC

[Jim Franklin]

The last group Sunday still played as a threesome is over FIVE HOURS. The books did not slow up play. I be a dissenting vote and say keep them.

[William_G]

The last group Sunday still played as a threesome is over FIVE HOURS. The books did not slow up play. I be a dissenting vote and say keep them.

-100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

[Pat Burke]

Oh boy


1) I Also personally believe that green reading is a special talent. So why should a player be able to hire a caddy to read greens? 


2) pace of play is not a greens book problem.


It’s a selfishness and pace of play problem.
[size=78%]Book or no book, just enforce a rule that approached players individually ( mostly it looks a groups position without specifying a culprit or culprits, which At times impacts players playing a decent pace IMO) [/size]
[/size]
[/size][size=78%]3) I am a fan of the yardage books because they DO level the field.  It’s a tough thing to be a new player on tour seeing courses for the first time. It’s a pretty big disadvantage many times. [/size]
[/size]
[/size]The main books are not the “college” books company. [size=78%]
[/size]The main books developer has regular communication with USGA and they have had knowledge of and information pretty much all along FWIW [size=78%]

[/size]I am putting up my defense shields![size=78%]
[/size]
[/size]

[Mike Bodo]

I am a fan of the yardage books because they DO level the field.  It’s a tough thing to be a new player on tour seeing courses for the first time. It’s a pretty big disadvantage many times.

Pat, back in the day before yardage books existed this unfairness you speak of was called "earning your stripes." There's absolutely nothing wrong with it taking a young player 2 - 3 years of seeing the same courses on tour before breaking through and winning. The Trevino's, Miller's, Watson's, Couples, Jacobsen's, Zoeller's, Norman's, Ballesteros' and Nelson's of the world all paid their dues before learning to win. That's the way it was for many years and it served the Tour well. Nowadays, you have all these fresh-faced kids coming out of college winning PGA tournaments and much of this can be attributed to the technology at their disposal - yardage and green books chief among them. Success that comes too fast to some players can become problematic down the road when all the winning they thought they were going to do suddenly stops. You're seeing that happen now with Jordan Spieth. He often looks like a deer in headlights out on the course trying to figure out what happened to the player he was from 2015 - 2017. As a result, he's been in a three year slump he shows no signs of coming out of anytime soon.


I think it would benefit many young players today to not have immediate success on the tour and learn the art of studying the courses they play and how to fail with grace when they are initially in a position to win. That's where real growth and maturity comes as a professional golfer. To further support this, I heard a statistic over the weekend that it takes the average Masters champion 6 times playing the tournament before getting their first green jacket. I found this fascinating given the talent some of today's young players have and those of yesteryear. However, after thinking about it for a period of time it makes perfect sense given the high stakes of the tournament and the ability to familiarize one's self with the nuances and intricacies of ANGC. Were the players to have greens books it would stand to benefit younger, less experienced players more vs. the veterans who paid their dues to attain that knowledge. Is that fair? I can see where some would say "yes" for the reason you raised, but I don't see it that way.

[Sean_A]

People bang on about quicker golf with lasers etc. Then why is golf slower than ever? I contend that for a very significant percentage of golfers that the more info available and the more tech between the golfer and the course the slower play is.

I say no aids or caddie advice for elite golfers. All these handicap golfers may follow suit. It kills me to watch people trying to mediate between golfer and course with tech. A happy compromise is markers on sprinklers and the traditional 100/150/200 markers.

Books of any sort should not be allowed.

Ciao

[Pat Burke]

Mike Bodo


I understand where you are coming from


I was technically a third generation guy that played professionally, and I know and do respect the traditions of our game


But as hard as it was to qualify for the tour, nothing compared to being a rookie and not knowing the courses, the hole locations, or heck, where to eat
Add in Lousy tee times the first two rounds and you already have a pretty stacked deck.


Quite often, you’re lucky to get two practice rounds with pro-ams and weather.  The yardage books in particular, make the practice rounds preparation insanely more efficient IMO.


Again, I understand and respect your point of view on it.  I just know that one of the greatest hurdles I had was the disadvantage against a big portion of the field each week my first year especially.  So, selfishly, I do like the data available, which in not way means it’s the correct way, just the way I prefer it!

[William_G]

eliminate the green reading books during the competition, leave them in for prep
easy

[JESII]

...

[Mike Bodo]

Mike Bodo


I understand where you are coming from


I was technically a third generation guy that played professionally, and I know and do respect the traditions of our game


But as hard as it was to qualify for the tour, nothing compared to being a rookie and not knowing the courses, the hole locations, or heck, where to eat
Add in Lousy tee times the first two rounds and you already have a pretty stacked deck.


Quite often, you’re lucky to get two practice rounds with pro-ams and weather.  The yardage books in particular, make the practice rounds preparation insanely more efficient IMO.


Again, I understand and respect your point of view on it.  I just know that one of the greatest hurdles I had was the disadvantage against a big portion of the field each week my first year especially.  So, selfishly, I do like the data available, which in not way means it’s the correct way, just the way I prefer it!

Great retort, Pat! I appreciate and respect your point of view.

[jeffwarne]

It kills me to watch people trying to mediate between golfer and course with tech. A happy compromise is markers on sprinklers and the traditional 100/150/200 markers.

What's particulalry frustrating is that the visible markers 100/150/200 disks, so prominent on UK courses, have been removed on most US courses. They speed up play as you learn to see them and pace as you walk by them, or estimates in 10's of yards from one in front of you.
Yardages on sprinklers can be maddening and hard to find, the colored plates mentioned above make it so simple-even a prominent 150 marker of some kind is enough, but the raging clutter police have long since eliminated those as well.

[John Crowley]

People bang on about quicker golf with lasers etc. Then why is golf slower than ever? I contend that for a very significant percentage of golfers that the more info available and the more tech between the golfer and the course the slower play is.

+1,000


I can’t count the times that I’ve seen amateur golfers use a lasers etc. while standing within a few feet of a 150 (or other) yardage marker. The ones that take the cake however are those that laser chips and pitches of less than 40 yards. In most cases the skills these players possess are inadequate to strike a ball with such precision.
Sadly, I don’t see it changing.

[David Ober]

People bang on about quicker golf with lasers etc. Then why is golf slower than ever? I contend that for a very significant percentage of golfers that the more info available and the more tech between the golfer and the course the slower play is.

I say no aids or caddie advice for elite golfers. All these handicap golfers may follow suit. It kills me to watch people trying to mediate between golfer and course with tech. A happy compromise is markers on sprinklers and the traditional 100/150/200 markers.

Books of any sort should not be allowed.

Ciao

Lasers are not part of the problem. At all.


People who play slowly with lasers play even ... more ... slowly ... without them. Baffles me that anyone thinks otherwise. Pay attention to who the slow players are at your club. They do everything slowly. You think they are going to pace things off quickly, grab a club, and be done with it? Hell no. Why? Because they are slow, methodical players.


Lasers are simply not part of the problem in any way. It takes mere seconds to shoot a flag and another couple seconds to shoot the top of a bunker.

[jeffwarne]

People bang on about quicker golf with lasers etc. Then why is golf slower than ever? I contend that for a very significant percentage of golfers that the more info available and the more tech between the golfer and the course the slower play is.

I say no aids or caddie advice for elite golfers. All these handicap golfers may follow suit. It kills me to watch people trying to mediate between golfer and course with tech. A happy compromise is markers on sprinklers and the traditional 100/150/200 markers.

Books of any sort should not be allowed.

Ciao

Lasers are not part of the problem. At all.


People who play slowly with lasers play even ... more ... slowly ... without them. Baffles me that anyone thinks otherwise. Pay attention to who the slow players are at your club. They do everything slowly. You think they are going to pace things off quickly, grab a club, and be done with it? Hell no. Why? Because they are slow, methodical players.


Lasers are simply not part of the problem in any way. It takes mere seconds to shoot a flag and another couple seconds to shoot the top of a bunker.

True
But I wish the clutter police would stop assuming we all want lazers and leave us a visible 150 marker

[Steve Lang]

   Banning books just doesn't look good...


..if its good enough for lost balls, perhaps a 3 minute rule for putting for those that have lost their right brain function?

[Rob Marshall]

It kills me to watch people trying to mediate between golfer and course with tech. A happy compromise is markers on sprinklers and the traditional 100/150/200 markers.

What's particulalry frustrating is that the visible markers 100/150/200 disks, so prominent on UK courses, have been removed on most US courses. They speed up play as you learn to see them and pace as you walk by them, or estimates in 10's of yards from one in front of you.
Yardages on sprinklers can be maddening and hard to find, the colored plates mentioned above make it so simple-even a prominent 150 marker of some kind is enough, but the raging clutter police have long since eliminated those as well.

We have 100/150/200 colored blocks. I use  them as a quick check that my laser is correct

[Jim Sherma]

+1 - Slow play is a function of slow players. Our group has a couple of slower players and it comes down to simple things like not putting your glove on, not starting your "routine" of determining club selection and taking multiple practice swings, not walking up to your ball, all until after the players you outdrove finishes hitting. I mean it's like the lady in front of you at the grocery store who doesn't start reaching into her purse to get the checkbook out until after all of the groceries are bagged. You knew the moment was coming, be ready for it dammit. I will now stop my rant.


Fast players play faster with lasers than without. Slow players are slow with or without.

People bang on about quicker golf with lasers etc. Then why is golf slower than ever? I contend that for a very significant percentage of golfers that the more info available and the more tech between the golfer and the course the slower play is.

I say no aids or caddie advice for elite golfers. All these handicap golfers may follow suit. It kills me to watch people trying to mediate between golfer and course with tech. A happy compromise is markers on sprinklers and the traditional 100/150/200 markers.

Books of any sort should not be allowed.

Ciao

Lasers are not part of the problem. At all.


People who play slowly with lasers play even ... more ... slowly ... without them. Baffles me that anyone thinks otherwise. Pay attention to who the slow players are at your club. They do everything slowly. You think they are going to pace things off quickly, grab a club, and be done with it? Hell no. Why? Because they are slow, methodical players.


Lasers are simply not part of the problem in any way. It takes mere seconds to shoot a flag and another couple seconds to shoot the top of a bunker.

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