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Tim Martin

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Re: Golf Magazine US Top 100
« Reply #150 on: October 22, 2020, 12:51:36 PM »
I’m not surprised to see East Lake drop out. I love the Bobby Jones connection and there are some fun holes but I don’t think it merits Top 100 status.

PCCraig

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Re: Golf Magazine US Top 100
« Reply #151 on: October 22, 2020, 01:10:41 PM »
One aspect of this list (when seen) is the high bar they use in GCA attribution. I like keeping the original GCA unless a significant redesign is done. They use this as a bar.  From what I can see in the last 20 years the only ones who are listed as GCA for a redesign are:
  • Cal Club - 2007 Kyle Philips
  • Inverness - 2017 Andrew Green
  • Sleep Hollow - 2017 Gil Hanse
  • Oak Hill East - 2020 Andrew Green
  • Monterey Peninsula Shore - 2004 Mike Stranz
  • Monterey Peninsula Dunes - 2015 Jackson/Kahn
  • Pinehurst no. 4 - 2017 Gil Hanse
Much prefer this high bar than lumping in restorations with 5 different GCA's in a line next to a course. I hope that GM can start this trend and stay true to it as an independent entity that helps put a fence around what is/isn't design credit from an integrity standpoint. I know there are GCA's on the panel and if they are living it has a propensity for conflict of interest, but based on what I see it is a very objective standard and it is appreciated.


Not to mention they finally got the architect of WBYC right!!!  ;D ;)
H.P.S.

Edward Glidewell

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Re: Golf Magazine US Top 100
« Reply #152 on: October 22, 2020, 04:23:34 PM »
I’m not surprised to see East Lake drop out. I love the Bobby Jones connection and there are some fun holes but I don’t think it merits Top 100 status.


I agree.  I enjoy playing East Lake and think it's a good golf course, but I don't think it would make my personal top 10 of courses I've played and I'm nowhere near as well-traveled (at least when it comes to golf courses) as many other contributors here. Hard for me to believe it's one of the 100 best in the country.

PCCraig

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Re: Golf Magazine US Top 100
« Reply #153 on: October 22, 2020, 04:32:58 PM »
Managed to see a Pdf of the Top 100 article.


Really enjoyed the Top 50 ranking of courses from each region of the country. NE, SE, Heartland, and West.
H.P.S.

William_G

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Re: Golf Magazine US Top 100
« Reply #154 on: October 22, 2020, 06:21:25 PM »
Where's Whippoorwill?


not that good

Personal experience? I loved it.
yep, played it, a few nice holes and a nice club
It's all about the golf!

William_G

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Re: Golf Magazine US Top 100
« Reply #155 on: October 22, 2020, 06:24:13 PM »
I’m not surprised to see East Lake drop out. I love the Bobby Jones connection and there are some fun holes but I don’t think it merits Top 100 status.
+1
the Tour PGA'd the greens and took out a lot of interest in that regard, bummer
It's all about the golf!

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Golf Magazine US Top 100
« Reply #156 on: October 22, 2020, 07:05:45 PM »
Pebble at #10 tells you everything you need to know about how ridiculous this list is. Any list that doesn't have Pebble in the top 3 and Olympic in the top 20 is worthless.  :P


Tim


I know your post was tongue in cheek but I for one am glad to finally see a US magazine push Pebble Beach into double figures.


Golf Digest at some stage in early 2000'as had it a #1 in US and has always had it no worse than #7 since 1985. Golf Magazine has had it at a high of #3 in the early 80's and now at #10. For mine #10 is still a little too high but at least it's a start.   


 

Mark_Fine

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Re: Golf Magazine US Top 100
« Reply #157 on: October 22, 2020, 09:06:52 PM »
It is always entertaining to see the comments on these Top 100 lists.  People take them so seriously.  It is also so funny but not surprising to see the debate about Pebble Beach.  To each his own but I tell people I have now played about 20 Doak 10’s and Pebble Beach is one of them.  I guess if I listed all 20 courses one of them would have to be #20 but they all would still be a 10  ;D


I played a course today (no need to mention the name but is was a good one).  I was discussing my thoughts on the recent renovation with my host and one of my comments was that while I absolutely love the golf course, it was now very refined, highly manicured, wall to wall green,..., almost too perfect.  It lost “the roughness around the edges” and I mean “the roughness around the edges” in a good way (I miss that). My host agreed and used what I thought was a good example/analogy which I will paraphrase. He said it’s a bit like when someone takes an old rifle to get appraised and the comment is made - “What a beautiful piece, but I see somebody tried to polish up the barrel and they replaced the stock,.. it looks almost new. It is probably worth about $500 but it’s a shame because if it hadn’t lost its patina it would be worth more than double that.” 

We all know some courses don’t age well but I still wonder if the same could be said about some of our great classic designs that get a face lift and it is too perfect and it loses that patina? 
« Last Edit: October 23, 2020, 08:13:19 AM by Mark_Fine »

Brian Finn

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Re: Golf Magazine US Top 100
« Reply #158 on: October 23, 2020, 09:06:04 AM »
It is always entertaining to see the comments on these Top 100 lists.  People take them so seriously.  It is also so funny but not surprising to see the debate about Pebble Beach.  To each his own but I tell people I have now played about 20 Doak 10’s and Pebble Beach is one of them.  I guess if I listed all 20 courses one of them would have to be #20 but they all would still be a 10  ;D


I played a course today (no need to mention the name but is was a good one).  I was discussing my thoughts on the recent renovation with my host and one of my comments was that while I absolutely love the golf course, it was now very refined, highly manicured, wall to wall green,..., almost too perfect.  It lost “the roughness around the edges” and I mean “the roughness around the edges” in a good way (I miss that). My host agreed and used what I thought was a good example/analogy which I will paraphrase. He said it’s a bit like when someone takes an old rifle to get appraised and the comment is made - “What a beautiful piece, but I see somebody tried to polish up the barrel and they replaced the stock,.. it looks almost new. It is probably worth about $500 but it’s a shame because if it hadn’t lost its patina it would be worth more than double that.” 

We all know some courses don’t age well but I still wonder if the same could be said about some of our great classic designs that get a face lift and it is too perfect and it loses that patina? 

That's a terrific analogy.  The tough thing about developing a patina is that it requires that we leave well enough alone.  Patience and restraint are in short supply these days.
New for 2023:  Cheraw SP, Grandfather, Clyne, Tenby, Pennard, Langland Bay, Southerndown, Pyle & Kenfig, Royal Porthcawl, Ashburnham, Rolls of Monmouth, Old Barnwell...

Mark_Fine

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Re: Golf Magazine US Top 100
« Reply #159 on: October 23, 2020, 09:27:57 AM »
Brian,
We all know courses change regardless if we leave well enough alone.  But the aging process does positively impact many classic designs and sometimes after a major renovation (even a good one) the courses can look almost sterile/too refined.  How many of those courses on the lists like this that have been “restored/renovated” still retain that patina or has it been cleansed away?


Dan_Callahan

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Re: Golf Magazine US Top 100
« Reply #160 on: October 23, 2020, 09:33:33 AM »
I've never understood why Pebble gets such heavy criticism on here. Granted, I think it's one of those courses where it is very difficult to separate out the architecture from the scenery. Having said that, it is a course I had high expectations of, and those expectations were exceeded after I played it. That doesn't happen all that often.

Jason Thurman

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Re: Golf Magazine US Top 100
« Reply #161 on: October 23, 2020, 10:30:23 AM »
I think the criticism thrown at Pebble is pretty easy to understand:


  • It's ungodly expensive. I can think of a handful of resort courses that charge within $100 of Pebble's greens fee, and they all catch shade around here with the exception of Pinehurst No. 2 which somehow gets a pass.
  • The maintenance meld probably isn't quite up to snuff with the rest of the Top 10 contenders, and in fact, might rank in the bottom 25% on this list. It's kept in very nice shape, but pretty soft and lush with a pretty clean and manicured aesthetic that doesn't get cool points around here.
  • A handful of average holes. I don't think this is really a detriment of the course. In fact, I remember coming up 15 and feeling almost overwhelmed by how over-the-top cool so many of the holes were, and being thankful for the chance to catch a breath. I think the flow of the course benefits from having some quieter moments, but the sum of the parts is less than it would be if some of those inland holes were loaded with wild-ass architectural features.
  • Nothing makes one's tastes sound refined like shitting on something that's universally beloved. If I go to The Palms with Jones and say something like "I mean, this is a good steak, but the marbling just doesn't quite reach the levels of the finest cuts and also is that... *sniff sniff*... maple that I taste? It's a little cloying. And this preparation is closer to medium than medium-rare, and that's unacceptable..." I sound like a real critic. And because of the items above, it's easy for an armchair architect to pick out some stuff to criticize at Pebble.
  • It's a low-key HARD golf course. I think we can safely assume that over 50% of people who play Pebble will only play it once in their lives. How many of them experience the course's greatest thrills firsthand during that round? I know I didn't. I hacked it up all day and made one par. It's my favorite course I've seen, and that's half the reason I can't wait to go back. But I also want another crack at a bunch of shots out there...
  • And yeah, it's public. And a publicly-known entity. The guy with the hottest takes about Pebble Beach doesn't have to worry about never getting invited back, or offending his host. And he doesn't step to the first tee with a feeling of inherent gratitude for being fortunate enough to have had the stars align to allow him to step foot onto the property. If anything, he might be a little pissy about just spending $500.
And in fairness, some of the things above are legitimate things to critique. Particularly bullets 2 and 3 - it has some mundane holes, and the presentation leaves something to be desired. Different people will weigh those detriments differently, and there aren't really right and wrong answers.


It's right next to Pinehurst No. 2 on this list, which offers both clear comparability (expensive, famous, resort golf) and contrast (inland, more noted for its consistent excellence than its extraordinary highlights, firm and fast and rugged presentation). For me, if I list the best holes between the two courses, it's not until I'm trying to choose the 9th best hole between them that there's even a discussion of selecting a hole from No. 2. And again, for me, highs that high outweigh the fact that No. 2 doesn't have any holes in the bottom 5.


To compare to another iconic entity from the area, the 2017 Warriors are the best basketball team I've ever seen. I could give a shit that the bench was rounded out with Javale, Zaza, and old Anderson Varejao. In crunch time, the fact that they could throw five Hall of Famers on the floor sorta trumps the rest of the roster for me.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jim Franklin

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Re: Golf Magazine US Top 100
« Reply #162 on: October 23, 2020, 11:03:47 AM »
It is always entertaining to see the comments on these Top 100 lists.  People take them so seriously.  It is also so funny but not surprising to see the debate about Pebble Beach.  To each his own but I tell people I have now played about 20 Doak 10’s and Pebble Beach is one of them.  I guess if I listed all 20 courses one of them would have to be #20 but they all would still be a 10  ;D


I played a course today (no need to mention the name but is was a good one).  I was discussing my thoughts on the recent renovation with my host and one of my comments was that while I absolutely love the golf course, it was now very refined, highly manicured, wall to wall green,..., almost too perfect.  It lost “the roughness around the edges” and I mean “the roughness around the edges” in a good way (I miss that). My host agreed and used what I thought was a good example/analogy which I will paraphrase. He said it’s a bit like when someone takes an old rifle to get appraised and the comment is made - “What a beautiful piece, but I see somebody tried to polish up the barrel and they replaced the stock,.. it looks almost new. It is probably worth about $500 but it’s a shame because if it hadn’t lost its patina it would be worth more than double that.” 

We all know some courses don’t age well but I still wonder if the same could be said about some of our great classic designs that get a face lift and it is too perfect and it loses that patina? 


Sounds like a course outside of Philadelphia I know.
Mr Hurricane

Tim Martin

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Re: Golf Magazine US Top 100
« Reply #163 on: October 23, 2020, 11:05:07 AM »
I think the criticism thrown at Pebble is pretty easy to understand:


  • It's ungodly expensive. I can think of a handful of resort courses that charge within $100 of Pebble's greens fee, and they all catch shade around here with the exception of Pinehurst No. 2 which somehow gets a pass.
  • The maintenance meld probably isn't quite up to snuff with the rest of the Top 10 contenders, and in fact, might rank in the bottom 25% on this list. It's kept in very nice shape, but pretty soft and lush with a pretty clean and manicured aesthetic that doesn't get cool points around here.
  • A handful of average holes. I don't think this is really a detriment of the course. In fact, I remember coming up 15 and feeling almost overwhelmed by how over-the-top cool so many of the holes were, and being thankful for the chance to catch a breath. I think the flow of the course benefits from having some quieter moments, but the sum of the parts is less than it would be if some of those inland holes were loaded with wild-ass architectural features.
  • Nothing makes one's tastes sound refined like shitting on something that's universally beloved. If I go to The Palms with Jones and say something like "I mean, this is a good steak, but the marbling just doesn't quite reach the levels of the finest cuts and also is that... *sniff sniff*... maple that I taste? It's a little cloying. And this preparation is closer to medium than medium-rare, and that's unacceptable..." I sound like a real critic. And because of the items above, it's easy for an armchair architect to pick out some stuff to criticize at Pebble.
  • It's a low-key HARD golf course. I think we can safely assume that over 50% of people who play Pebble will only play it once in their lives. How many of them experience the course's greatest thrills firsthand during that round? I know I didn't. I hacked it up all day and made one par. It's my favorite course I've seen, and that's half the reason I can't wait to go back. But I also want another crack at a bunch of shots out there...
  • And yeah, it's public. And a publicly-known entity. The guy with the hottest takes about Pebble Beach doesn't have to worry about never getting invited back, or offending his host. And he doesn't step to the first tee with a feeling of inherent gratitude for being fortunate enough to have had the stars align to allow him to step foot onto the property. If anything, he might be a little pissy about just spending $500.
And in fairness, some of the things above are legitimate things to critique. Particularly bullets 2 and 3 - it has some mundane holes, and the presentation leaves something to be desired. Different people will weigh those detriments differently, and there aren't really right and wrong answers.


It's right next to Pinehurst No. 2 on this list, which offers both clear comparability (expensive, famous, resort golf) and contrast (inland, more noted for its consistent excellence than its extraordinary highlights, firm and fast and rugged presentation). For me, if I list the best holes between the two courses, it's not until I'm trying to choose the 9th best hole between them that there's even a discussion of selecting a hole from No. 2. And again, for me, highs that high outweigh the fact that No. 2 doesn't have any holes in the bottom 5.


To compare to another iconic entity from the area, the 2017 Warriors are the best basketball team I've ever seen. I could give a shit that the bench was rounded out with Javale, Zaza, and old Anderson Varejao. In crunch time, the fact that they could throw five Hall of Famers on the floor sorta trumps the rest of the roster for me.


A well reasoned post that holds even more significance because of the disclaimer that Jason did not play well the day he was there. His take ramps up my desire to play and my takeaway is that the good/great holes more than compensate for those that are considered “pedestrian.”




Kalen Braley

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Re: Golf Magazine US Top 100
« Reply #164 on: October 23, 2020, 11:17:29 AM »
I've always found the haggling/grief over Pebbles exact ranking a bit amusing. 

With 15,372 courses in the US,  whether it should be in the top 5,(0.0325%) of courses, or just top 10, (0.0651%) of courses seems a bit absurd.

P.S.  If the course was private and the average joe salivated over it being untouchable like a CPC, it would never even leave the top 3.  :D

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: Golf Magazine US Top 100
« Reply #165 on: October 23, 2020, 11:24:58 AM »
I will be fortunate enough to play Pebble Beach next week (two of my boys with me).  Great post above, Jason.  I would add that if Pebble still looked as it did in this match, many would probably "rate" it higher.  It has a 1990s resort look about it today, with continuous cart paths etc.  But that is nit picking and not as noticeable on the ground as it is from aerial shots.


https://youtu.be/qMnrQYyxOho

"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

JMEvensky

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Re: Golf Magazine US Top 100
« Reply #166 on: October 23, 2020, 11:42:51 AM »

I've always found the haggling/grief over Pebbles exact ranking a bit amusing. 

With 15,372 courses in the US,  whether it should be in the top 5,(0.0325%) of courses, or just top 10, (0.0651%) of courses seems a bit absurd.

P.S.  If the course was private and the average joe salivated over it being untouchable like a CPC, it would never even leave the top 3.  :D 



I agree--especially the PS. If you can get past past the green fee, I can't imagine a reason to turn down an opportunity to play PB.

Chris Clouser

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Re: Golf Magazine US Top 100
« Reply #167 on: October 23, 2020, 12:09:34 PM »
It's been a long time since I posted on here, but looking through the posts have a question.  I'll use Colonial as an example.  It is a well established club with a long pedigree of tournaments that hung onto the list for a long time, I'm assuming based on the merits of the golf course and perhaps somewhat to the nostalgia.  I believe it slipped off the list just from new clubs coming on and not having any high profile changes to it in recent years.  What would it take for a Colonial to get back onto the list?  And how high would it go up the list if it had some minor work done by a Coore, Hanse, or Doak?  How high if it has some sort of restoration?


Jim Hoak

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Re: Golf Magazine US Top 100
« Reply #168 on: October 23, 2020, 12:31:43 PM »
Brian,
We all know courses change regardless if we leave well enough alone.  But the aging process does positively impact many classic designs and sometimes after a major renovation (even a good one) the courses can look almost sterile/too refined.  How many of those courses on the lists like this that have been “restored/renovated” still retain that patina or has it been cleansed away?


It seems to me that there are two kinds of renovations--those that restore the original design features of the course and those that blow up the design and just use the same land.  Of course, it isn't that precise; most renovations have elements of both.  But there are preponderances of one or the other in most.
Now--to blatantly pat ourselves on the back, I want to tell you about about our renovation of the Brook Hollow golf course in Dallas--which is due to open for play on November 1.  Our singularly overriding goal was to restore the course (which had fallen far from the acknowledged best in Dallas, maybe the state) in a clearly Tillinghast fashion.  That was always the major factor in all our decisions.  We hired an architect because of his experience with Tillinghast renovations (Keith Foster).  We traveled to see his Tillinghast work.  We hired a Tillinghast historian to research the history of the Tillinghast design and give us his thoughts.  We put Tillinghast features--squareish greens, Great Hazard, etc.--back into the course.  We always said that our goal was to be seen as the best Tillinghast course, not on either coast.
We'll soon see how well we did.  Look forward to any good or bad comments.


JMEvensky

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Re: Golf Magazine US Top 100
« Reply #169 on: October 23, 2020, 01:17:57 PM »
Jim Hoak, I played BH over 40 years ago and loved it then. I think at least 2 fraternity brothers are still members. Please post any info/pictures of the restoration--I'd love to see them.

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine US Top 100
« Reply #170 on: October 23, 2020, 03:19:14 PM »

It seems to me that there are two kinds of renovations--those that restore the original design features of the course and those that blow up the design and just use the same land.  Of course, it isn't that precise; most renovations have elements of both.  But there are preponderances of one or the other in most.
Now--to blatantly pat ourselves on the back, I want to tell you about about our renovation of the Brook Hollow golf course in Dallas--which is due to open for play on November 1.  Our singularly overriding goal was to restore the course (which had fallen far from the acknowledged best in Dallas, maybe the state) in a clearly Tillinghast fashion.  That was always the major factor in all our decisions.  We hired an architect because of his experience with Tillinghast renovations (Keith Foster).  We traveled to see his Tillinghast work.  We hired a Tillinghast historian to research the history of the Tillinghast design and give us his thoughts.  We put Tillinghast features--squareish greens, Great Hazard, etc.--back into the course.  We always said that our goal was to be seen as the best Tillinghast course, not on either coast.
We'll soon see how well we did.  Look forward to any good or bad comments.


Absolutely cannot wait to see Brook Hollow. LOVE Tilly and Foster does great work.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine US Top 100
« Reply #171 on: October 23, 2020, 07:57:29 PM »
It is always entertaining to see the comments on these Top 100 lists.  People take them so seriously.  It is also so funny but not surprising to see the debate about Pebble Beach.  To each his own but I tell people I have now played about 20 Doak 10’s and Pebble Beach is one of them.  I guess if I listed all 20 courses one of them would have to be #20 but they all would still be a 10  ;D


I played a course today (no need to mention the name but is was a good one).  I was discussing my thoughts on the recent renovation with my host and one of my comments was that while I absolutely love the golf course, it was now very refined, highly manicured, wall to wall green,..., almost too perfect.  It lost “the roughness around the edges” and I mean “the roughness around the edges” in a good way (I miss that). My host agreed and used what I thought was a good example/analogy which I will paraphrase. He said it’s a bit like when someone takes an old rifle to get appraised and the comment is made - “What a beautiful piece, but I see somebody tried to polish up the barrel and they replaced the stock,.. it looks almost new. It is probably worth about $500 but it’s a shame because if it hadn’t lost its patina it would be worth more than double that.” 

We all know some courses don’t age well but I still wonder if the same could be said about some of our great classic designs that get a face lift and it is too perfect and it loses that patina? 

That's a terrific analogy.  The tough thing about developing a patina is that it requires that we leave well enough alone.  Patience and restraint are in short supply these days.


I strongly agree with this. A restoration should sneak under the radar not blare “ we spent a lot of money!!!!”
AKA Mayday

jeffwarne

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Re: Golf Magazine US Top 100
« Reply #172 on: October 23, 2020, 08:35:16 PM »
It is always entertaining to see the comments on these Top 100 lists.  People take them so seriously.  It is also so funny but not surprising to see the debate about Pebble Beach.  To each his own but I tell people I have now played about 20 Doak 10’s and Pebble Beach is one of them.  I guess if I listed all 20 courses one of them would have to be #20 but they all would still be a 10  ;D


I played a course today (no need to mention the name but is was a good one).  I was discussing my thoughts on the recent renovation with my host and one of my comments was that while I absolutely love the golf course, it was now very refined, highly manicured, wall to wall green,..., almost too perfect.  It lost “the roughness around the edges” and I mean “the roughness around the edges” in a good way (I miss that). My host agreed and used what I thought was a good example/analogy which I will paraphrase. He said it’s a bit like when someone takes an old rifle to get appraised and the comment is made - “What a beautiful piece, but I see somebody tried to polish up the barrel and they replaced the stock,.. it looks almost new. It is probably worth about $500 but it’s a shame because if it hadn’t lost its patina it would be worth more than double that.” 

We all know some courses don’t age well but I still wonder if the same could be said about some of our great classic designs that get a face lift and it is too perfect and it loses that patina? 



The loss of "patina" to me is always always most evident when the turf in all areas consists of a monostand with not only no weeds, but several varieties of grass segregated into its respective perfectly kept area.(i.e. no fairway turf in the rough, and no rough creeping into the native or vice versa)
A bit like a 6 year old freaking out if his peas touch his potatos or his beef.
I used to love the way Palmetto's unirrigated fairways bled into sandy rough with a light dose of browned out common bermuda and whatever native could survive unirrigated in the hot summer underneath cart and foot traffic.
Hard to tell where fairway ended and rough began and had a wonderful texture that changed with the weather and the season.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Nigel Islam

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Re: Golf Magazine US Top 100
« Reply #173 on: October 23, 2020, 09:22:44 PM »
It's been a long time since I posted on here, but looking through the posts have a question.  I'll use Colonial as an example.  It is a well established club with a long pedigree of tournaments that hung onto the list for a long time, I'm assuming based on the merits of the golf course and perhaps somewhat to the nostalgia.  I believe it slipped off the list just from new clubs coming on and not having any high profile changes to it in recent years.  What would it take for a Colonial to get back onto the list?  And how high would it go up the list if it had some minor work done by a Coore, Hanse, or Doak?  How high if it has some sort of restoration?


I don’t have an answer, but great to see you posting again!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Golf Magazine US Top 100
« Reply #174 on: October 24, 2020, 12:00:45 AM »
It's been a long time since I posted on here, but looking through the posts have a question.  I'll use Colonial as an example.  It is a well established club with a long pedigree of tournaments that hung onto the list for a long time, I'm assuming based on the merits of the golf course and perhaps somewhat to the nostalgia.  I believe it slipped off the list just from new clubs coming on and not having any high profile changes to it in recent years.  What would it take for a Colonial to get back onto the list?  And how high would it go up the list if it had some minor work done by a Coore, Hanse, or Doak?  How high if it has some sort of restoration?


Chris:


This is part of what I have been lamenting.  I think places like Colonial have seen the last of the list, because there is no designer label to restore them to.  So a place like Brook Hollow with the Tillinghast banner will surpass Colonial, even though few people used to think they were equals.

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