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Tommy Williamsen

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Three minute time limit for lost balls
« on: September 24, 2020, 10:17:38 AM »
I just read an article by Gary van Sickle declaring a reboot for the rule.


https://www.morningread.com/news-opinion/feature/2020-09-23/these-2-revised-rules-could-use-another-ruling?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Morning+Read+09-24-2020


I like the new ruling. It does speed up play. If there is a culprit it is five inch rough.

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jeffwarne

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Re: Three minute time limit for lost balls
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2020, 10:51:57 AM »
I just read an article by Gary van Sickle declaring a reboot for the rule.


https://www.morningread.com/news-opinion/feature/2020-09-23/these-2-revised-rules-could-use-another-ruling?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Morning+Read+09-24-2020


I like the new ruling. It does speed up play. If there is a culprit it is five inch rough.


Don't like the rule.
Walking back certainly slows the game in competition.(Have yet to play in an event where the 2 stroke local rule is enacted)
Unintended consequences unfortunately rule the day.
It becomes quite slow when a savvy competitor learns not to start the search until all players in his group are available.
Rather than playing their own ball while an individual begins the search, players now wait until all balls are found as 3 minutes goes fast if you begin the search by yourself.
I've had officials deter my caddie(who is out front) from starting a search until all players and caddies arrive, to increase the odds of finding it in the 3 minutes.
previously he would've found it and had the yardage available upon my arrival.
Never heard of that before with 5 minute rule.(time could easily expire if caddy starts search before you arrive-ultimately it slows down play in higher level(no 2 shot drop option)competition by freezing caddie from starting search until help arrives.
IMHO. over the course of a competitive round, it SLOWS play, by delaying the START of a search.


There was way too much other low hanging fruit to go after rather than the 5 minute search rule-if they truly wanted to speed play.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2020, 11:49:35 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Nixon

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Re: Three minute time limit for lost balls
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2020, 10:59:33 AM »
It was enacted to compensate for not enforcing the 40 second rule.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Three minute time limit for lost balls
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2020, 11:11:35 AM »
It would be massively disappointing if the powers that be don’t have other far more pressing items at the top of their agenda for discussion/action. By comparison this is small fry.
Indeed I see no reason to change it at all even more so as the incident that highlighted the matter was essentially caused by the USGA themselves with their narrow fairways surrounded by 5” heavily watered rough.
Cut a lot more grass to shorter fairway height and if in doubt play a provisional.
Atb

A.G._Crockett

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Re: Three minute time limit for lost balls
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2020, 11:28:41 AM »
The change from five to three minutes, at least to me, is less significant than the option of dropping and taking a two stroke penalty when a ball is "unexpectedly" OB or lost.  The option for casual play, and the ability of the committee to adopt if for tournament play, is vastly preferable AND quicker than the "walk of shame" back to the tee, regardless of the allotted search time.  And practically speaking, a ball that hasn't been found in three minutes isn't a great bet to be found in five, and there has to be some time limit, after all.

The Carolinas Golf Association has adopted this option for most, if not all, of it's competitions, including interclub matches and most tournaments, though I am not sure about the highest level tournaments.  The rule is administered by dropping two club lengths INTO THE FAIRWAY at an agreed upon point (similar to a lateral hazard drop) with the two stroke penalty applied.  It nets out to the same number of shots as stroke and distance, with the added advantage of less risk, since the player might have hit either the provisional ball or the second ball after returning to the tee into a similar or worse condition.  In fact, many players are foregoing provisional balls entirely for exactly that reason, so play really does speed up.
Summer in the Southeast has been a laboratory for growing Bermuda grass, and maintenance crews simply haven't been able to keep up with mowing.  It isn't uncommon at all to KNOW to a certainty that your ball landed just a few yards from the fairway, and yet not be able to find it in the allotted time.  The drop option is a great thing in those conditions.
Of course, that isn't really pertinent to a US Open, or any Tour level event; the answer at Winged Foot would have been rough of a more reasonable length, which might have added excitement to the final round, too, from players being able to do more than just struggle for pars.  But that's another argument entirely.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Mark Pearce

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Re: Three minute time limit for lost balls
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2020, 11:40:52 AM »
In the second round of the Carnegie Shield (hackers flight) last year, I was playing with tow partners who, like me, stood no chance of qualifying.  It was cold, it was tipping down with rain and there was a gale blowing.  We stood for 12 minutes (at least, that's from the time I first looked at my watch) whilst the group in front looked for a ball on the left of 14.  I suspect the 3 minute rule is the most frequently ignored rule in golf.

Matt_Cohn

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Re: Three minute time limit for lost balls
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2020, 12:17:13 PM »
Three minutes sucks. It’s so fast. It’s not enough time for such a severe consequence. And it does nothing to improve pace of play; if you fall behind because you search for five minutes, you inevitably make up any small gap that might’ve been created. Bring back five.

Pete_Pittock

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Re: Three minute time limit for lost balls
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2020, 06:24:38 PM »
I just read an article by Gary van Sickle declaring a reboot for the rule.
https://www.morningread.com/news-opinion/feature/2020-09-23/these-2-revised-rules-could-use-another-ruling?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Morning+Read+09-24-2020
I like the new ruling. It does speed up play. If there is a culprit it is five inch rough.
Don't like the rule.
Walking back certainly slows the game in competition.(Have yet to play in an event where the 2 stroke local rule is enacted)
Unintended consequences unfortunately rule the day.
It becomes quite slow when a savvy competitor learns not to start the search until all players in his group are available.
Rather than playing their own ball while an individual begins the search, players now wait until all balls are found as 3 minutes goes fast if you begin the search by yourself.
I've had officials deter my caddie(who is out front) from starting a search until all players and caddies arrive, to increase the odds of finding it in the 3 minutes.
previously he would've found it and had the yardage available upon my arrival.
Never heard of that before with 5 minute rule.(time could easily expire if caddy starts search before you arrive-ultimately it slows down play in higher level(no 2 shot drop option)competition by freezing caddie from starting search until help arrives.
IMHO. over the course of a competitive round, it SLOWS play, by delaying the START of a search.
There was way too much other low hanging fruit to go after rather than the 5 minute search rule-if they truly wanted to speed play.
the same thing happened with the 5-minute rule in effect.


The two US Open searches could have been caused by lack of spectators seeing the ball.  Harris English search seemed to be in an open area of high rough where later TV showed ball flight hitting trees.

Mike_Clayton

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Re: Three minute time limit for lost balls
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2020, 09:31:54 PM »
The 3 minute rule has done as much to speed up play as the grove rule did in ensuring players clubbed down from the tee to ensure they hit more fairways in order to get fewer fliers.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Three minute time limit for lost balls
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2020, 09:39:47 PM »
The 3 minute rule has done as much to speed up play as the grove rule did in ensuring players clubbed down from the tee to ensure they hit more fairways in order to get fewer fliers.


Ouch  :D


Was the groove rule Mike Davis's doing?  I remember he tried hard to sell it as a "first step" toward fixing the problem.  I don't remember anyone else being so optimistic about its effect.

Rob Marshall

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Re: Three minute time limit for lost balls
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2020, 09:43:15 PM »
You can look for a lost ball for 3 minutes but you can walk all the way to the green see where the pin is and walk back and play the shot. Makes sense........
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

David Ober

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Re: Three minute time limit for lost balls
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2020, 10:19:32 PM »
Three minutes sucks. It’s so fast. It’s not enough time for such a severe consequence. And it does nothing to improve pace of play; if you fall behind because you search for five minutes, you inevitably make up any small gap that might’ve been created. Bring back five.


Completely agree.

Sean_A

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Re: Three minute time limit for lost balls
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2020, 01:33:46 AM »
The 3 minute rule makes no odds for casual play. What happens on TV doesn't matter. For local comps it's very easy to use the drop rule after a lost ball. All it takes is a player to say right, 3 minutes up. This rule is like any other, takes golfers to enforce it. What is really the issue is that increasingly golfers do not want other golfers to have the power of rules enforcement over their game. There is an increasing distrust among golfers to be fair and impartial with each other. Competitive golf at these inconsequential levels has become far too serious. It's one reason I dislike official comps.

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Niall C

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Re: Three minute time limit for lost balls
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2020, 02:00:04 AM »
The rules of golf should be more about casual or club golf rather than what the pro's do (or get away with). Indeed make the pro's play under the same conditions. I wonder whether Bryson would have used the same strategy at the US Open if there weren't any ball spotters on the course and he had 3/5 minutes to find his ball in the rough. It would have been nerve shredding at least I'd imagine.


Niall

A.G._Crockett

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Re: Three minute time limit for lost balls
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2020, 08:30:01 AM »
The rules of golf should be more about casual or club golf rather than what the pro's do (or get away with). Indeed make the pro's play under the same conditions. I wonder whether Bryson would have used the same strategy at the US Open if there weren't any ball spotters on the course and he had 3/5 minutes to find his ball in the rough. It would have been nerve shredding at least I'd imagine.


Niall
Niall,
Again, I'm no fan of DeChambeau, but he didn't use a strategy for playing WF that was any different than the rest of the field.  He didn't lead the field in driving distance (7th), even though he led the Tour by a wide margin coming in, and his percentage of fairways hit ranked 26th.  He averaged three fewer fairways hit per round than the leader, and hit ONE less fairway than Zach Johnson for the entire tournament.  It's worth noting that Brendan Todd, who led the field in driving accuracy, hit just less than two out of three fairways for the tournament.  In short, those were hard fairways to hit...

If anything, DeChambeau's advantage over the field appears to be his ability to play shots out of the rough; nobody was especially good at avoiding the rough.  And DeChambeau's strokes gained numbers reflect this; he was better on approach shots AND around the greens than he was off the tee in strokes gained, with putting only slightly behind off the tee. 

In short, he had an extraordinary week in pretty much every respect, and was able to take great advantage of his physical strength; not so much in terms of bashing tee shots as far as he could, but in terms of playing shots out of the rough that nobody else could play as well.  In that regard, if the USGA had been trying to find a setup that rewarded what DeChambeau has done to his body, they succeeded completely, but not because of any strategy he would have changed if little old men with white flags hadn't been on the scene.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2020, 09:05:26 AM by A.G._Crockett »
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Michael Wolf

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Re: Three minute time limit for lost balls
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2020, 08:36:56 AM »
Was getting ready to reference those same DeChambeau stats. He's a gifted player who wins when he putts well, but the rest is a marketing balloon. Nothing more, nothing less.


I'll add one more - the % of fairways hit in US Open's is unchanged over the past 30 years.


On the 3 minute vs 5 minute rule - I think casual followers would be surprised how often players on the pro tours hit provisional balls, regardless of the permitted search times.


Michael

Matt_Cohn

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Re: Three minute time limit for lost balls
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2020, 01:18:45 PM »
He's a gifted player who wins when he putts well, but the rest is a marketing balloon. Nothing more, nothing less.


Not to sidetrack, but he's won an NCAA, US Am, US Open, and 6 other PGA Tour events at age 27. So like, huh?

Kalen Braley

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Re: Three minute time limit for lost balls
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2020, 01:29:46 PM »
He's a gifted player who wins when he putts well, but the rest is a marketing balloon. Nothing more, nothing less.


Not to sidetrack, but he's won an NCAA, US Am, US Open, and 6 other PGA Tour events at age 27. So like, huh?


Tiger had 34 wins (8 majors) at the age of 27 and i'm guessing Jack was similar... so I wouldn't put BDC anywhere near Tigers or Jack's class either, even if they do share a rare win combination.

A.G._Crockett

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Re: Three minute time limit for lost balls
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2020, 04:43:24 PM »
He's a gifted player who wins when he putts well, but the rest is a marketing balloon. Nothing more, nothing less.


Not to sidetrack, but he's won an NCAA, US Am, US Open, and 6 other PGA Tour events at age 27. So like, huh?
Kalen,
Your


Tiger had 34 wins (8 majors) at the age of 27 and i'm guessing Jack was similar... so I wouldn't put BDC anywhere near Tigers or Jack's class either, even if they do share a rare win combination.
Kalen,
For at least the third time on this thread alone, I'm no fan of DeChambeau; quite the contrary, in fact.
But he's now one of THREE guys ever to win the NCAA, US Am, and US Open, and your hesitancy is that he isn't Jack or Tiger by age 27?
Guess what?  Nobody else is or was, either!  The number of great players who aren't Tiger or Jack is, well, everybody.  Including Arnie, Lee, Gary, Nick, Bobby, Walter, Tom, and a LOT of others. 

Let's try to be a bit realistic here.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Kalen Braley

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Re: Three minute time limit for lost balls
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2020, 05:01:52 PM »
AG,

I was only agreeing with Micheal that yes he's gifted and now has a trio of 3 specific wins that puts him in a tiny group with Jack and Tiger.

But with all the hubbub we've been seeing lately on the golf telecasts, golf channel, and web chat otherwise you'd think he's been crowned as golf's next revolutionary/trend setter to be duly anointed and promoted to the halls of the elite.  If I had to guess, he'll wind up being closer to the flavor of the month when its all said and done, more in the Bo Jackson, Brian Bosworth, or Jeremey Lin categories. 

Niall C

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Re: Three minute time limit for lost balls
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2020, 06:52:06 PM »
The rules of golf should be more about casual or club golf rather than what the pro's do (or get away with). Indeed make the pro's play under the same conditions. I wonder whether Bryson would have used the same strategy at the US Open if there weren't any ball spotters on the course and he had 3/5 minutes to find his ball in the rough. It would have been nerve shredding at least I'd imagine.


Niall
Niall,
Again, I'm no fan of DeChambeau, but he didn't use a strategy for playing WF that was any different than the rest of the field.  He didn't lead the field in driving distance (7th), even though he led the Tour by a wide margin coming in, and his percentage of fairways hit ranked 26th.  He averaged three fewer fairways hit per round than the leader, and hit ONE less fairway than Zach Johnson for the entire tournament.  It's worth noting that Brendan Todd, who led the field in driving accuracy, hit just less than two out of three fairways for the tournament.  In short, those were hard fairways to hit...

If anything, DeChambeau's advantage over the field appears to be his ability to play shots out of the rough; nobody was especially good at avoiding the rough.  And DeChambeau's strokes gained numbers reflect this; he was better on approach shots AND around the greens than he was off the tee in strokes gained, with putting only slightly behind off the tee. 

In short, he had an extraordinary week in pretty much every respect, and was able to take great advantage of his physical strength; not so much in terms of bashing tee shots as far as he could, but in terms of playing shots out of the rough that nobody else could play as well.  In that regard, if the USGA had been trying to find a setup that rewarded what DeChambeau has done to his body, they succeeded completely, but not because of any strategy he would have changed if little old men with white flags hadn't been on the scene.


AG


I'm DeChambeua neutral and was only using him as an example. But it's the same for the rest - how different would there approach be if they had to look for their own balls under the 3/5 minute time limit ?


It might make no difference or they might send their caddy up ahead but they just might not be so cavalier hitting the ball into long grass.


Niall

Thomas Dai

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Re: Three minute time limit for lost balls
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2020, 07:16:03 AM »
If in doubt, hit a provisional was the mantra I was told as a youngster and is one I’ve adopted ever since.
Oh, and more short grass would be pretty helpful as well. Much, much shorter.
Atb

A.G._Crockett

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Re: Three minute time limit for lost balls
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2020, 08:14:06 AM »
AG,

I was only agreeing with Micheal that yes he's gifted and now has a trio of 3 specific wins that puts him in a tiny group with Jack and Tiger.

But with all the hubbub we've been seeing lately on the golf telecasts, golf channel, and web chat otherwise you'd think he's been crowned as golf's next revolutionary/trend setter to be duly anointed and promoted to the halls of the elite.  If I had to guess, he'll wind up being closer to the flavor of the month when its all said and done, more in the Bo Jackson, Brian Bosworth, or Jeremey Lin categories.
Kalen,
My bad; we agree completely.  I am far from ready to see ANY of what DeChambeau is doing, from equipment to workouts to diet to the swing itself, as the next wave of golf.  Given that he had already won the NCAA and the US Am, as well as on Tour, it's a little early to assign cause and effect for the US Open win.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

David_Tepper

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Re: Three minute time limit for lost balls
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2020, 11:03:50 AM »
"If I had to guess, he'll wind up being closer to the flavor of the month when its all said and done, more in the Bo Jackson, Brian Bosworth, or Jeremey Lin categories." 


Kalen -

I pains me to see Bo Jackson's name connected in any way to Bosworth and Lin. He was an extraordinary athletic talent who achieved at a high level in two sports during his too brief career. The other two accomplished nothing that was even remotely close.

It remains to be seen what long-term impact Bryson DC will have on the game. But his talent and achievements to date cannot be doubted or denied. 7 wins and a major in his first 4 years as a pro is very impressive. I suspect there will be more of each over the next 5 to 10 years.

DT   
 
« Last Edit: September 26, 2020, 11:08:56 AM by David_Tepper »

A.G._Crockett

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Re: Three minute time limit for lost balls
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2020, 12:13:48 PM »
"If I had to guess, he'll wind up being closer to the flavor of the month when its all said and done, more in the Bo Jackson, Brian Bosworth, or Jeremey Lin categories." 


Kalen -

I pains me to see Bo Jackson's name connected in any way to Bosworth and Lin. He was an extraordinary athletic talent who achieved at a high level in two sports during his too brief career. The other two accomplished nothing that was even remotely close.

It remains to be seen what long-term impact Bryson DC will have on the game. But his talent and achievements to date cannot be doubted or denied. 7 wins and a major in his first 4 years as a pro is very impressive. I suspect there will be more of each over the next 5 to 10 years.

DT   
 
The word "extraordinary" for Bo Jackson is probably the best we can do, but it isn't enough.  He was unique, and the ONLY person every to be an All-Star in two professional sports.  Heisman Trophy winner who spent less than a season in the minors before becoming a an MLB player, was an MLB All-Star starter by his third season, and averaged over 5 yards a carry as a part-time running back in the NFL.  I can't think of anybody that really approaches that level of excellence in two sports.  He was one of those guys that you just couldn't take your eyes off of if he was playing; it was like everybody else on the field was just there.  Oddly, one of the things I remember most vividly about him was seeing him, after a strikeout, turn and snap the bat over his knee on the way back to the dugout without ever breaking stride.  I had never seen anything like it.
And I agree fully with your greater point about DeChambeau's career.  Had he not won the Open, and had he not become such a physical oddity in the last year, his career trajectory would still be impressive to say the least.  If you project his current career win rate out until, say 35-40 years of age and nothing else, it's easily a Hall of Fame career. 

As much as I don't like him, there is NO reason to believe that he wouldn't have been able to win a major without the added bulk and length, and every reason to believe that he would have been a VERY good bet to do so.  All of that has gotten lost in the noise of what he's done to his body, but it's a fact.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

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