[Pete_Pittock]

can we get this back to the title. There are a number of other subjects threads on BDC

[John Crowley]

can we get this back to the title. There are a number of other subjects threads on BDC

Right! Has the smoke from coastal fires wafting across the country been seeded with a BDC obsession bacteria?

[Doug Siebert]

As someone who has lost a lot of balls over the years, they are rarely found in the last two minutes. Since amateurs almost never return to the tee, it will speed play. Maybe they have an argument for tournaments without galleries, but that's a tiny minority of all the rounds played in the US each day.

[jeffwarne]

As someone who has lost a lot of balls over the years, they are rarely found in the last two minutes. Since amateurs almost never return to the tee, it will speed play. Maybe they have an argument for tournaments without galleries, but that's a tiny minority of all the rounds played in the US each day.

The same amateurs that "never return to the tee" spend waaaay more than 3 minutes looking for balls, and take liberties with every other rule.I'll never understand rules changes for people that don't play by the rules anyway.
In a competitive stroke play event,Three minutes goes crazy fast when the first 2 minutes are by yourself(while others hit), and you suddenly need more than one set of eyes. That extra 2 minutes  is HUGE when suddenly 3 or 6 people are looking.
But as I said, the unintended consequences kick in and savvy players wait until everyone's available, further slowing play.

[Sean_A]

As someone who has lost a lot of balls over the years, they are rarely found in the last two minutes. Since amateurs almost never return to the tee, it will speed play. Maybe they have an argument for tournaments without galleries, but that's a tiny minority of all the rounds played in the US each day.

The same amateurs that "never return to the tee" spend waaaay more than 3 minutes looking for balls, and take liberties with every other rule.I'll never understand rules changes for people that don't play by the rules anyway.
Three minutes goes crazy fast when the first 2 minutes are by yourself(while others hit), and you suddenly need more than one set of eyes. That extra to is HUGE when suddenly 3 or 6 people are looking.
But as I said, the unintended consequences kick in and savvy players wait until everyone's available, further slowing play.[size=78%] i[/size]

I am bs on this Jeff. Have we all forgotten about letting groups through? Its a very weak culture in the US and THE is turning the same way. When I first went to the UK there was a strong culture of allowing groups through after maybe 1 minute of searching if a group was waiting. That culture, while I found odd at first, but soon greatly appreciated has deteriorated very badly. Slow play is a learned and often cultural habit/norm. If golfers weren't so selfish in worrying about their crap score either way, it wouldn't make any difference (as if effectively the case) with a 3 or 5 minute rule. All this talk is typical, on the edges of the issue with no hope of properly addressing the real issues. The bottom line is golfers are far too concerned if they score 79 or 82. Honestly, it's idiotic and this is what handicaps create, a false sense of of the quality of one's game.

Ciao

[jeffwarne]

As someone who has lost a lot of balls over the years, they are rarely found in the last two minutes. Since amateurs almost never return to the tee, it will speed play. Maybe they have an argument for tournaments without galleries, but that's a tiny minority of all the rounds played in the US each day.

The same amateurs that "never return to the tee" spend waaaay more than 3 minutes looking for balls, and take liberties with every other rule.I'll never understand rules changes for people that don't play by the rules anyway.
Three minutes goes crazy fast when the first 2 minutes are by yourself(while others hit), and you suddenly need more than one set of eyes. That extra to is HUGE when suddenly 3 or 6 people are looking.
But as I said, the unintended consequences kick in and savvy players wait until everyone's available, further slowing play.[size=78%] i[/size]

I am bs on this Jeff. Have we all forgotten about letting groups through? Its a very weak culture in the US and THE is turning the same way. When I first went to the UK there was a strong culture of allowing groups through after maybe 1 minute of searching if a group was waiting. That culture, while I found odd at first, but soon greatly appreciated has deteriorated very badly. Slow play is a learned and often cultural habit/norm. If golfers weren't so selfish in worrying about their crap score either way, it wouldn't make any difference (as if effectively the case) with a 3 or 5 minute rule. All this talk is typical, on the edges of the issue with no hope of properly addressing the real issues. The bottom line is golfers are far too concerned if they score 79 or 82. Honestly, it's idiotic and this is what handicaps create, a false sense of of the quality of one's game.

Ciao

Wrong thread.
This is the one about RE:Three Minute Time Limit for Lost Balls.
pLenty of other threads correctly supporting your position available for comment.


As I said, play by whatever rules you want, but in an actual stroke play event, the clock meticulously starts when you begin your search and any group I play in (in an event)checks their phone/watch for when the search begins.Often there is an official on the scene doing the same.
I've seen FAR more lost balls the last 2 years in my group in professional events than any other time, and I have found someone's ball AT LEAST THREE times after they had called the search (after 3 minutes) and were on their way to hit their provisional or walk back.In at least one case I was looking for mine on one side and didn't participate until the last 30 seconds after finding mine and playing out. 2 1/2 minutes(rather than 30 seconds) of multiple people looking would helped that player out, and ultimately taken less time.


Plenty of low hanging slow play fruit-this was a poor rules change.

[Thomas Dai]

Turn it around. A lost ball is the result of a bad shot. Why should the rest of the field in an event have to effectively be penalised because someone else hit a bad shot and gets lots of time to find their ball?
If in doubt play a provisional.
atb

[Sean_A]

As someone who has lost a lot of balls over the years, they are rarely found in the last two minutes. Since amateurs almost never return to the tee, it will speed play. Maybe they have an argument for tournaments without galleries, but that's a tiny minority of all the rounds played in the US each day.

The same amateurs that "never return to the tee" spend waaaay more than 3 minutes looking for balls, and take liberties with every other rule.I'll never understand rules changes for people that don't play by the rules anyway.
Three minutes goes crazy fast when the first 2 minutes are by yourself(while others hit), and you suddenly need more than one set of eyes. That extra to is HUGE when suddenly 3 or 6 people are looking.
But as I said, the unintended consequences kick in and savvy players wait until everyone's available, further slowing play.[size=78%] i[/size]

I am bs on this Jeff. Have we all forgotten about letting groups through? Its a very weak culture in the US and THE is turning the same way. When I first went to the UK there was a strong culture of allowing groups through after maybe 1 minute of searching if a group was waiting. That culture, while I found odd at first, but soon greatly appreciated has deteriorated very badly. Slow play is a learned and often cultural habit/norm. If golfers weren't so selfish in worrying about their crap score either way, it wouldn't make any difference (as if effectively the case) with a 3 or 5 minute rule. All this talk is typical, on the edges of the issue with no hope of properly addressing the real issues. The bottom line is golfers are far too concerned if they score 79 or 82. Honestly, it's idiotic and this is what handicaps create, a false sense of of the quality of one's game.

Ciao

Wrong thread.
This is the one about RE:Three Minute Time Limit for Lost Balls.
pLenty of other threads correctly supporting your position available for comment.

As I said, play by whatever rules you want, but in an actual stroke play event, the clock meticulously starts when you begin your search and any group I play in (in an event)checks their phone/watch for when the search begins.Often there is an official on the scene doing the same.
I've seen FAR more lost balls the last 2 years in my group in professional events than any other time, and I have found someone's ball AT LEAST THREE times after they had called the search (after 3 minutes) and were on their way to hit their provisional or walk back.In at least one case I was looking for mine on one side and didn't participate until the last 30 seconds after finding mine and playing out. 2 1/2 minutes(rather than 30 seconds) of multiple people looking would helped that player out, and ultimately taken less time.

Plenty of low hanging slow play fruit-this was a poor rules change.

Sorry, I didn't explain myself well. 3 or 5 minutes makes no odds. If people are on the tee waiting for a ball to found, they should be called through. It's that simple. Back in the day folks would see someone is waiting and just get on with it. Yet another reason why Stableford makes far more sense to use for comps.

Ciao

[A.G._Crockett]

Turn it around. A lost ball is the result of a bad shot. Why should the rest of the field in an event have to effectively be penalised because someone else hit a bad shot and gets lots of time to find their ball?
If in doubt play a provisional.
atb

Thomas,

Whether or not a provisional was played doesn't change the fact that a player is going to look for the first ball; the difference is two strokes, which is huge in a competition, and that assumes that the provisional is in good shape.  And the issue of whether or not the player hit a provisional is a different issue from the issue of whether the search should be 3 minutes or 5 minutes; if the player has to return to the tee, that takes as long as it takes, regardless of how long the search prior to that was.  I think we all agree that we SHOULD hit provisionals; the Walk of Shame back to the tee is to be avoided at all costs.  But we also all know that there are blind shots, heavy rough, etc. that cause balls to be unexpectedly lost or OB.  That's golf.

I've played quite a few tournaments since the rules change, and I have to say that the change from 5 to 3 just hasn't seemed impactful to me, even in competition.  In MOST cases, it seems to me that the ball is found within 3 minutes or not at all, and certainly not in a playable condition.  I'm sure there have been situations that I'm not recalling where the ball was found in the next two minutes, but that happened when the limit was 5 minutes, too. 


I do NOT believe, though, that it is an especially significant way to speed up play, even if followed religiously. Two minutes a couple of times a round just isn't significant. I am, however, a BIG fan of the new rule for casual play of allowing a drop with a two stroke penalty instead of a return to the tee, which can also be adopted as a local rule for competitions; that one really can speed up play, because it is a better option in a lot of cases than even hitting a provisional, much less going back to the tee.

[jeffwarne]

Turn it around. A lost ball is the result of a bad shot. Why should the rest of the field in an event have to effectively be penalised because someone else hit a bad shot and gets lots of time to find their ball?
If in doubt play a provisional.
atb

I do NOT believe, though, that it is an especially significant way to speed up play, even if follower religiously. Two minutes a couple of times a round just isn't significant. I am, however, a BIG fan of the new rule for casual play of allowing a drop with a two stroke penalty instead of a return to the tee, which can also be adopted as a local rule for competitions; that one really can speed up play, because it is a better option in a lot of cases than even hitting a provisional, much less going back to the tee.

Nailed it.And with the old 5 minute rule, we all almost always hit before we came over to search.
Now, we look first.
The casual play rule is good as well. I wish they could come up with a slight tweak to make such a rule for ALL play, but it is SO subjective(where it was lost and 2 shots is a lot if you are way back(duck hook) and could do better with a provisional) unlike a penalty area where there is a line you can identify where it crossed.

[A.G._Crockett]

Turn it around. A lost ball is the result of a bad shot. Why should the rest of the field in an event have to effectively be penalised because someone else hit a bad shot and gets lots of time to find their ball?
If in doubt play a provisional.
atb

I do NOT believe, though, that it is an especially significant way to speed up play, even if follower religiously. Two minutes a couple of times a round just isn't significant. I am, however, a BIG fan of the new rule for casual play of allowing a drop with a two stroke penalty instead of a return to the tee, which can also be adopted as a local rule for competitions; that one really can speed up play, because it is a better option in a lot of cases than even hitting a provisional, much less going back to the tee.

Nailed it.And with the old 5 minute rule, we all almost always hit before we came over to search.
Now, we look first.
The casual play rule is good as well. I wish they could come up with a slight tweak to make such a rule for ALL play, but it is SO subjective(where it was lost and 2 shots is a lot if you are way back(duck hook) and could do better with a provisional) unlike a penalty area where there is a line you can identify where it crossed.

Jeff,

I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but the Carolinas Golf Association has adopted the two-stroke penalty drop as a local rule for most of its competitions, at least below the highest level of qualifiers, championships, etc.  So I've played a bunch of senior four balls and interclub matches with that rule, and the issue that you raise has really not seemed to be a problem.

It isn't really any different that determining the point where the ball crossed the margin of a penalty area, which is often not completely clear from the tee.  OB seems to work exactly the same, and while an unexpectedly lost ball is problematic, that also isn't a lot different than a ball that ended up in a hazard that was blind off the tee.

And because the drop is taken two club lengths INTO THE FAIRWAY from the point determined by the group, it is often a better option for the player than even hitting the provisional, since you'd be lying three, hitting four either way IF you hit a good provisional into the fairway (a large "if"!) much less returning to the tee, both of which DO speed up play.

I doubt it's ever going to be used at the highest levels of play, nor should it be, but even for competitions below the highest level, it seems to work as well as any other drop works.  I'm a fan.

[Sean_A]

Turn it around. A lost ball is the result of a bad shot. Why should the rest of the field in an event have to effectively be penalised because someone else hit a bad shot and gets lots of time to find their ball?
If in doubt play a provisional.
atb

I do NOT believe, though, that it is an especially significant way to speed up play, even if follower religiously. Two minutes a couple of times a round just isn't significant. I am, however, a BIG fan of the new rule for casual play of allowing a drop with a two stroke penalty instead of a return to the tee, which can also be adopted as a local rule for competitions; that one really can speed up play, because it is a better option in a lot of cases than even hitting a provisional, much less going back to the tee.

Nailed it.And with the old 5 minute rule, we all almost always hit before we came over to search.
Now, we look first.
The casual play rule is good as well. I wish they could come up with a slight tweak to make such a rule for ALL play, but it is SO subjective(where it was lost and 2 shots is a lot if you are way back(duck hook) and could do better with a provisional) unlike a penalty area where there is a line you can identify where it crossed.

Somebody should always be playing. It's crazy to stop the game and have all golfers looking for a ball. Keep playing and switch out searchers.

Ciao

[Rob Marshall]

Turn it around. A lost ball is the result of a bad shot. Why should the rest of the field in an event have to effectively be penalised because someone else hit a bad shot and gets lots of time to find their ball?
If in doubt play a provisional.
atb

I do NOT believe, though, that it is an especially significant way to speed up play, even if follower religiously. Two minutes a couple of times a round just isn't significant. I am, however, a BIG fan of the new rule for casual play of allowing a drop with a two stroke penalty instead of a return to the tee, which can also be adopted as a local rule for competitions; that one really can speed up play, because it is a better option in a lot of cases than even hitting a provisional, much less going back to the tee.

Nailed it.And with the old 5 minute rule, we all almost always hit before we came over to search.
Now, we look first.
The casual play rule is good as well. I wish they could come up with a slight tweak to make such a rule for ALL play, but it is SO subjective(where it was lost and 2 shots is a lot if you are way back(duck hook) and could do better with a provisional) unlike a penalty area where there is a line you can identify where it crossed.

Somebody should always be playing. It's crazy to stop the game and have all golfers looking for a ball. Keep playing and switch out searchers.

Ciao

If you are trying to find a ball within the 3 minute limit it makes no sense to keep playing unless you aren't interested in helping him find his ball in time.

[Pete_Pittock]

if you won't help search for my ball I definitely won't help search for your ball.

[Sean_A]

Turn it around. A lost ball is the result of a bad shot. Why should the rest of the field in an event have to effectively be penalised because someone else hit a bad shot and gets lots of time to find their ball?
If in doubt play a provisional.
atb

I do NOT believe, though, that it is an especially significant way to speed up play, even if follower religiously. Two minutes a couple of times a round just isn't significant. I am, however, a BIG fan of the new rule for casual play of allowing a drop with a two stroke penalty instead of a return to the tee, which can also be adopted as a local rule for competitions; that one really can speed up play, because it is a better option in a lot of cases than even hitting a provisional, much less going back to the tee.

Nailed it.And with the old 5 minute rule, we all almost always hit before we came over to search.
Now, we look first.
The casual play rule is good as well. I wish they could come up with a slight tweak to make such a rule for ALL play, but it is SO subjective(where it was lost and 2 shots is a lot if you are way back(duck hook) and could do better with a provisional) unlike a penalty area where there is a line you can identify where it crossed.

Somebody should always be playing. It's crazy to stop the game and have all golfers looking for a ball. Keep playing and switch out searchers.

Ciao

If you are trying to find a ball within the 3 minute limit it makes no sense to keep playing unless you aren't interested in helping him find his ball in time.

You do help look, but one player is always hitting. Just switch out searchers. Most of the time the ball is found before much switching out occurs. There doesn't need to be a 100% player search until the others have hit. Everybody looking for balls slows down golf more than a 3 or 5 minutes rule. I learned this system early on in GB&I from guys who cared about quick play and not holding up those behind. It works, try it.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

"Shall we compromise on 4 minutes?" said a smiling Dr Kissinger to Lord Carrington as they sat in large leather chairs overlooking the first tee at Royal St Donald's GC and watched through the window as a fourball with caddies searched for balls in the 5" immaculately groomed rough.
"Splendid idea" replied a chuckling Lord Carrington. "Care for another drink?"
atb

[David_Elvins]

I'll add one more - the % of fairways hit in US Open's is unchanged over the past 30 years.

30 years ago the US Open was being won by Curtis Strange, Scott Simpson, Hale Irwin and Corey Pavin - the shortest and straightest hitters on tour.


Nowadays the US Open is being won by Bryson de Chambeau, Dustin Johnson, Gary Woodland and Brooms Koepka - the longest power players on tour.


The fairways hit stat might be the same but the game has done a 180 degree turn as to the skills required to win the US Open.

[Tommy Williamsen]

On a course like Winged Foot someone is looking for a ball on many holes. Three minutes is enough.

[AKikuchi]

Turn it around. A lost ball is the result of a bad shot. Why should the rest of the field in an event have to effectively be penalised because someone else hit a bad shot and gets lots of time to find their ball?
If in doubt play a provisional.
atb

I do NOT believe, though, that it is an especially significant way to speed up play, even if follower religiously. Two minutes a couple of times a round just isn't significant. I am, however, a BIG fan of the new rule for casual play of allowing a drop with a two stroke penalty instead of a return to the tee, which can also be adopted as a local rule for competitions; that one really can speed up play, because it is a better option in a lot of cases than even hitting a provisional, much less going back to the tee.

Nailed it.And with the old 5 minute rule, we all almost always hit before we came over to search.
Now, we look first.
The casual play rule is good as well. I wish they could come up with a slight tweak to make such a rule for ALL play, but it is SO subjective(where it was lost and 2 shots is a lot if you are way back(duck hook) and could do better with a provisional) unlike a penalty area where there is a line you can identify where it crossed.

It feels to me like they ended up with a half-measure change, partly because the "right" answer may be different for competitive and casual play.

Even though, as you say, many casual players play by their own rules, I do see a benefit for having the shorter search period as the baseline on paper. Even if they're not going to actually use a stopwatch, "I have five minutes to look" feels different/less urgent than "I have three minutes."

I’m not a competitive player, prefer to walk, and find myself with a mysteriously/surprisingly lost ball (thus no provisional) more often than I’d like. I’ve always been annoyed by the tension of either 1. walking back and making an already slow course slower or 2. taking a drop not allowed in the rules. I’ve generally felt that option 2 was clearly the right decision, but it still felt a bit dirty. The 2-stroke local rule is to me a no-brainer, and long overdue.-Alan

[archie_struthers]

 




Every week someone breaks this rule in my group, and unless you are a dick no one tends to say anything unless its a tournament. Then there tends to be a fight as to how long they were looking.  I would change the  lost ball rule to a one shot penalty and drop where the group agreed it was last seen.


If no consensus can be reached then it's players call, sure to cause even better melees LOL

[Wayne_Kozun]

If in doubt, hit a provisional was the mantra I was told as a youngster and is one I’ve adopted ever since.
Oh, and more short grass would be pretty helpful as well. Much, much shorter.
Atb

Exactly.  This isn't so hard!  And I also like to get some more "practice" in as you usually need it if you will be searching for your ball.

[A.G._Crockett]

Every week someone breaks this rule in my group, and unless you are a dick no one tends to say anything unless its a tournament. Then there tends to be a fight as to how long they were looking causing hard feelings. I would change the  lost ball rule to a one shot penalty and drop where the group agreed it was last seen.

Archie,

The idea of a one stroke penalty for an "unexpected" lost or OB ball is a pretty serious reduction from stroke and distance, which nets out to two strokes any way you slice it (pun intended).  With the option to drop and take a two stroke penalty, you are lying three, hitting four either way.

It may be that you are advocating a one stroke penalty and a drop for ALL lost ball/OB situations; I think the "logic problem" with either or both of those is that a player would be getting the same penalty for a ball that has either completely left the golf course or can't even be found as he/she would for an arguably much better shot which is in an unplayable lie, or even in a penalty area.  In those instances, at least the ball is still findable and on the property. 


I do see the simplicity of ALL of these being one stroke penalties; I even play some in a senior tournament group that plays this way and treats the entire golf course as if it were bordered by red stakes, including if you lose the ball.  It's not terrible, it DOES speed up play, if only because nobody EVER hits a provisional ball or second ball, even when the original shot hit the cart path, then the road, then two cars, then a house, and finally a small child and a dog playing in their backyard, and usually the best players still win, but I think it is a bit too much leveling of the competition for better players to get on board.

[A.G._Crockett]

If in doubt, hit a provisional was the mantra I was told as a youngster and is one I’ve adopted ever since.
Oh, and more short grass would be pretty helpful as well. Much, much shorter.
Atb

Exactly.  This isn't so hard!  And I also like to get some more "practice" in as you usually need it if you will be searching for your ball.

Guys, everybody agrees with you about hitting provisionals, ok?  We're talking about a VERY specific situation that comes up from time to time when nobody in the group suspected that anything would be wrong, and the ball either can't be found, or turns out to be OB.  It happens.

The last round I played, my second shot on 18 was a 6 iron that missed the green to the right, into "standard" rough.  All three of us saw the shot and knew where it had landed and walked directly there; we never found the ball.  The three of us didn't find it in three minutes, and I picked up on the hole and kept looking for my newish $4 ProV1x while they finished the hole.  Never found it, and this has NOT been uncommon in the Southeast this summer as the Bermuda grass has enjoyed PERFECT conditions for growth. 


I KNOW you are not saying that I should hit a provisional ball EVERY time my ball is out of the fairway, cause that's the ONLY way to avoid unexpectedly lost golf balls, and I KNOW to hit a provisional under circumstances where there is a reasonable possibility of the ball being lost or OB.  I never object to hitting a provisional because, as Wayne points out, at the worst, it's a little bit of practice legally. 


But that's NOT what we are talking about here, and wouldn't have anything to do with difference between searching three vs searching five.

[Kalen Braley]

I'll add one more - the % of fairways hit in US Open's is unchanged over the past 30 years.

30 years ago the US Open was being won by Curtis Strange, Scott Simpson, Hale Irwin and Corey Pavin - the shortest and straightest hitters on tour.

Nowadays the US Open is being won by Bryson de Chambeau, Dustin Johnson, Gary Woodland and Brooms Koepka - the longest power players on tour.

The fairways hit stat might be the same but the game has done a 180 degree turn as to the skills required to win the US Open.

David,

Excellent post and you can toss in guys like Lee Janzen and Payne Stewart who weren't long bombers either.

Perhaps the biggest difference I could tell from 2006 to this year is, when they missed the fairways back then they had 5 and 6 irons approaches from the rough, a very difficult ask...as opposed to this year where it was wedges and 9 irons.

The overall takeway is sadly accurate.  Because distance off the tee has increases by so much and that its almost all carry, the challenge of the rough with mid to long iron is gone for the longest of players on tracks with high rough, eliminating most of the field before the first tee ball is hit.  Its become a one dimensional game of bomb and gouge, rinse and repeat.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

As nothing more than a point of data…

https://twitter.com/iacas/status/1310921313922494465

Currently the poll I posted to Twitter (I didn't spend long and I'm not a pollster, so if you think the wording might be slightly slanted/biased, you may be right) has "It should be shorter" at 5.7%, "3:00 is great!" at 57.1%, and "Go back to 5:00" at 37.1%. The text preceding those poll choices is "Regarding the time to search for a ball under the Rules of Golf:"

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