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Jonathan Cummings

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Canoe Brook NJ
« on: August 25, 2020, 09:35:56 AM »
Is there general consensus in the gca crowd which of the two (in their current state!), North or South, is the better course?

Steve Lapper

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Re: Canoe Brook NJ
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2020, 10:07:45 AM »
Is there general consensus in the gca crowd which of the two (in their current state!), North or South, is the better course?


Jon,


 Neither really!
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Eric LeFante

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Re: Canoe Brook NJ
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2020, 10:53:09 AM »
The North is more difficult and whenever there is a state or regional event there and only one course is needed the North is used. The fairways are not wide and you really have to hit it well to find the fairway. The greens have a good amount of slope and undulation in them. It's obviously more convenient to be next to the clubhouse as well as opposed to across the highway.


I can't say with certainty but I would guess the majority of people favor the North. I don't believe this is a situation like Baltusrol or Winged Foot where 50% or more of the membership thinks the easier course is more interesting.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2020, 10:59:18 AM by Eric LeFante »

Tim Martin

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Re: Canoe Brook NJ
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2020, 11:04:41 AM »
The North is more difficult and whenever there is a state or regional event there and only one course is needed the North is used. The fairways are not wide and you really have to hit it well to find the fairway. The greens have a good amount of slope and undulation in them. It's obviously more convenient to be next to the clubhouse as well as opposed to across the highway.


I can't say with certainty but I would guess the majority of people favor the North. I don't believe this is a situation like Baltusrol or Winged Foot where 50% or more of the membership thinks the easier course is more interesting.


The North has been a perennial U.S. Open qualifying site.

John Blain

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Re: Canoe Brook NJ
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2020, 11:26:16 AM »
The North is more difficult and whenever there is a state or regional event there and only one course is needed the North is used. The fairways are not wide and you really have to hit it well to find the fairway. The greens have a good amount of slope and undulation in them. It's obviously more convenient to be next to the clubhouse as well as opposed to across the highway.


I can't say with certainty but I would guess the majority of people favor the North. I don't believe this is a situation like Baltusrol or Winged Foot where 50% or more of the membership thinks the easier course is more interesting.


The North has been a perennial U.S. Open qualifying site.
Tim-
I believe the MGA uses both courses @ CB when hosting sectional qualifying for the US Open, no?  Sort of like Century/Old Oaks when the qualifier is in Westchester.
I hope you're well.
-John


Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Canoe Brook NJ
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2020, 11:28:47 AM »
I like the North a bit better and, as stated earlier in this thread, a little more difficult. It is situated in a difficult location. There just are so many excellent courses in North Jersey that it suffers by comparison.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Canoe Brook NJ
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2020, 11:46:04 AM »
The North is more difficult and whenever there is a state or regional event there and only one course is needed the North is used. The fairways are not wide and you really have to hit it well to find the fairway. The greens have a good amount of slope and undulation in them. It's obviously more convenient to be next to the clubhouse as well as opposed to across the highway.


I can't say with certainty but I would guess the majority of people favor the North. I don't believe this is a situation like Baltusrol or Winged Foot where 50% or more of the membership thinks the easier course is more interesting.


The North has been a perennial U.S. Open qualifying site.
Tim-
I believe the MGA uses both courses @ CB when hosting sectional qualifying for the US Open, no?  Sort of like Century/Old Oaks when the qualifier is in Westchester.
I hope you're well.
-John


John-Iím sure your right considering the amount of players that need to get around.

JohnVDB

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Re: Canoe Brook NJ
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2020, 12:30:07 PM »
The North is more difficult and whenever there is a state or regional event there and only one course is needed the North is used. The fairways are not wide and you really have to hit it well to find the fairway. The greens have a good amount of slope and undulation in them. It's obviously more convenient to be next to the clubhouse as well as opposed to across the highway.


I can't say with certainty but I would guess the majority of people favor the North. I don't believe this is a situation like Baltusrol or Winged Foot where 50% or more of the membership thinks the easier course is more interesting.


That is correct.
The North has been a perennial U.S. Open qualifying site.
Tim-
I believe the MGA uses both courses @ CB when hosting sectional qualifying for the US Open, no?  Sort of like Century/Old Oaks when the qualifier is in Westchester.
I hope you're well.
-John
I accidentally hit post early.  The MGA does use both courses for Sectional Qualifying.  I've played and worked on the North course but never been on the South.  The North is a fun course to play.  It is good, not great IMO.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2020, 01:24:25 PM by JohnVDB »

MCirba

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Re: Canoe Brook NJ
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2020, 12:32:06 PM »
I've played neither but always wondered if there is any restoration opportunity there, or if too many cooks and too many highway-expansion adjustments have spoiled the broth?   


If memory serves, Rees was the last one to do something there.

Wait...I just checked.   The first line on their wiki is, "Both of Canoe Brook's courses have been extensively renovated by Rees Jones whom the club credits as its designer."

Nevermind.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

mark chalfant

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Re: Canoe Brook NJ
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2020, 06:42:26 PM »
Jonathan,


Consider substituting Suburban a sporty A.W. Tillinghast layout in Union,NJ. Also Rock Spring(Raynor/Banks) in West Orange, River Vale (Orrin Smith), or Francis Byrne(Banks)  These are daily fee and all three have several good holes. Montclair a private 36 hole layout, with 25 Donald Ross holes and 9 holes by Charles Banks is fantastic.


Mike C.
Any traces of Travis, Alison or Tull at Canoe Brook were wiped away around the time Cary Middlecoff won his second U.S. Open!
« Last Edit: August 27, 2020, 08:24:56 AM by mark chalfant »

Chris Macios

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Re: Canoe Brook NJ
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2020, 12:20:01 AM »
As some have said both courses are largely Rees designed are this point. He has done work at the club for many years.


I have played and caddied hundreds (thousands maybe) of rounds across both courses. For my taste, I vastly prefer the South for its more interesting tee shots, routing and use of a large ridge over the first five holes. The first hole is an excellent risk/reward par 5, the fourth a rare uphill par 3 that I enjoy with a two tier green, the 6th a reachable par 5 (par 4 for US Open qualifier usually)... I could go on but itís late...


Mainly for me, the south asks more off the tee and has some more interesting greens vs the north. North course Iíd characterize as typical Jones with long narrow fairways and pinched landing areas.


I have way more fun playing South.

Paul Rudovsky

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Re: Canoe Brook NJ
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2020, 04:24:17 AM »
I played North 1x in 2015 and South 1x about 2 weeks ago.


To me North is a much more "conventional" course...well laid out and good event course, but not "unusual" in any sense.  South is built on a much more difficult piece land architecturally but is certainly more interesting and more fun.  Chris...I agree with much of what you posted but I frankly hated #1 (even though I parred it).  Actually after seeing/playing #1, I thought I would hate the course and play poorly, but I played great and really liked it. 


The holes on North are very predictable...certainly not true regarding many of the holes on South.  If I belonged, I think I would play South 2/3 of time and North 1/3 (but that is realistically hard to predict as choice is often a function of how busy the courses are relative to one another).


Over all a good 36 hole facility but miles from a WF caliber.

Mike Davidson

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Re: Canoe Brook NJ
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2020, 10:44:25 AM »
As noted, the North Course was significantly changed with the land swap and then highway expansion.  The footprint of the South Course was not as impacted.  Here are some really cool images from the Program for the 1936 US Women's Amateur held at the Canoe Brook on the South Course, including the routing:





















Jaeger Kovich

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Re: Canoe Brook NJ
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2020, 12:19:27 PM »
As noted, the North Course was significantly changed with the land swap and then highway expansion.  The footprint of the South Course was not as impacted.  Here are some really cool images from the Program for the 1936 US Women's Amateur held at the Canoe Brook on the South Course, including the routing:























Mike - Great pics! When is the restoration starting?!

Anthony Gholz

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Re: Canoe Brook NJ
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2020, 10:50:05 AM »
Mike:


Greatly appreciate the pics and especially the 1936 layout of the South.  In Colt & Alison In North America I give Alison full credit for the South based on the routing still being principally still his.  I wish I had your course diagram to have put into the book.  I had to piece my layout together from snippets of club history books and newspaper articles.  An historian's lot ...


The North is THE championship course today, but has had so many revisions as to be un recognizable from the original (non Alison). 


Thanks again for your contribution to the South's history.
Anthony

Mike Davidson

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Re: Canoe Brook NJ
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2020, 09:52:36 PM »
Mike:


Greatly appreciate the pics and especially the 1936 layout of the South.  In Colt & Alison In North America I give Alison full credit for the South based on the routing still being principally still his.  I wish I had your course diagram to have put into the book.  I had to piece my layout together from snippets of club history books and newspaper articles.  An historian's lot ...


The North is THE championship course today, but has had so many revisions as to be un recognizable from the original (non Alison). 


Thanks again for your contribution to the South's history.
Anthony


Of course!!  I also have a bunch of old scorecards and other pictures I will post.  The major changes I see from the 1936 routing and pictures on South are:


1.  3rd hole used to play to current 4th green.
2.  3rd hole turned into dogleg left into new green.  Old 3rd green current 4th hole par 3.  The old "tantalizing" par 3 4th hole is NLE.
3.  7th tee was moved from where current 12 tee is to next to current 6th green



Would love to see anything else you have on the South!
« Last Edit: September 28, 2020, 10:02:07 PM by Mike Davidson »

Anthony Gholz

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Re: Canoe Brook NJ
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2020, 12:09:47 PM »
Mike:


Send me pm with e-mail and I'll send pages from book.


Thanks Anthony

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