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Niall C

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Re: #14 at North Berwick (West) - "Perfection", or a real dud?
« Reply #50 on: September 08, 2020, 02:54:51 PM »
Here's one from the 40s:




Great photo. After the extension to the rear, that front section is still all green, would like to see more if it restored, it might help do away with the manufactured look the green currently suffers a little from. 
And get the rear bunker reinstated. As Sean says, beyond the green is currently one of the worst places on the course to be.


Bryan


In the photo above that Tony posted, it looks like a couple of bunkers have been filled in between the existing bunkers and the wall. If the players in the painting were playing over one of those then the painting makes sense. What threw me initially wasn't so much the direction that the players were playing but that you could see so much of the 3rd and Redan. From memory I don't think you can see anything like that in front of the existing bunkers.


Niall

Niall C

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Re: #14 at North Berwick (West) - "Perfection", or a real dud?
« Reply #51 on: September 08, 2020, 03:01:04 PM »
I would completely agree with my replies #14 and #15 from 2005.

Good to see I'm still in agreement with myself.


Mike


Re post 14, I've only played 2 Gil Hanse courses but don't recall him giving you a totally blind approach off a good drive. Even with the raised road at Craighead I think you can still see the flag from what I recall. Did he design a totally blind hole anywhere else ?


Re post 15 - my understanding is that "Perfection" originally got it's name because of the need to hit a perfect drive and a perfect approach, not just a perfect approach. In other words no one was getting home off an indifferent drive.


Niall

Jon Wiggett

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Re: #14 at North Berwick (West) - "Perfection", or a real dud?
« Reply #52 on: September 08, 2020, 03:05:56 PM »






I don't envy the poor bloke hand mowing the grass in front of the hotel. That is one piece of back breaking work.


As others have mentioned, it is very noticeable how much wider the course was back then and indeed when I first played it in the early 80s.

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: #14 at North Berwick (West) - "Perfection", or a real dud?
« Reply #53 on: September 08, 2020, 03:15:41 PM »






I don't envy the poor bloke hand mowing the grass in front of the hotel. That is one piece of back breaking work.


As others have mentioned, it is very noticeable how much wider the course was back then and indeed when I first played it in the early 80s.


Jon that was Carlekemp School, now flats. It was my great pleasure to host Ian Dickson and his friend Dick. Dick hadn't been back in NB in the 60 years since he left the school.   He said the one thing that hadn't changed at all was the Bath room, shown at the top of the picture, he'd been in it every day from the age of 8 to 13.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2020, 03:27:13 PM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Josh Bills

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Re: #14 at North Berwick (West) - "Perfection", or a real dud?
« Reply #54 on: September 08, 2020, 03:19:33 PM »
Here's a plan drawing from 1912 from The Golf Monthly showing one large bunker on Perfection.  Could see a 90 degree shot to get it running down the slope onto the green.  The side view seems to make the tee ball much more difficult then I remember it. 



Tony_Muldoon

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Re: #14 at North Berwick (West) - "Perfection", or a real dud?
« Reply #55 on: September 08, 2020, 03:26:10 PM »





What's perplexing is that the golfers seem to be playing at right angles to the bunker.  That would not be consistent with the current location of the bunkers and green as the green is angled off to the right of the current bunkers.  Also, there doesn't appear to be a large ridge behind the bunker in the painting as there is behind the current bunkers.

There doesn't ppear to be a ridge behind the bunker in the old picture either although that picture was taken in a direction a bit to the left of the painting's direction.  The island in the background is Craigleith which is to the left of Bass Rock.



Perhaps this is 'artistic license'?  After all a shot of the golfers backs wouldn't be interesting?


Agree even the photo's don't appear to have the ridge and yet it seems entirely natural?




From memory. "Perfection" was a carry over name from a previous iteration of the 14th  hole, that played to a green in front of the ridge/bunkers?



Let's make GCA grate again!

Mark Pearce

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Re: #14 at North Berwick (West) - "Perfection", or a real dud?
« Reply #56 on: September 08, 2020, 05:16:55 PM »
I would completely agree with my replies #14 and #15 from 2005.

Good to see I'm still in agreement with myself.


Mike


Re post 14, I've only played 2 Gil Hanse courses but don't recall him giving you a totally blind approach off a good drive. Even with the raised road at Craighead I think you can still see the flag from what I recall. Did he design a totally blind hole anywhere else ?


Re post 15 - my understanding is that "Perfection" originally got it's name because of the need to hit a perfect drive and a perfect approach, not just a perfect approach. In other words no one was getting home off an indifferent drive.


Niall
If you're going for the green on 15 at Craighead with your 2nd shot, it's blind.  Unless you have driven down the 14th fairway (which some longer players choose to do).
In July 2022 I will be riding 3 stages of the Tour de France,  in the Alps, to raise money for the William Wates Memorial Trust which is dedicated to providing opportunities for under privileged young adults.  To support the Trust, please visit https://fundraising.wwmt.org/fundraisers/MarkPearce/rid

Tim Gallant

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Re: #14 at North Berwick (West) - "Perfection", or a real dud?
« Reply #57 on: September 09, 2020, 02:32:51 AM »
Bryan,


Iím not too sure about the painting and itís interesting to see the plan that Josh posted which appears to show the bunker extending much farther to the right than I knew!


In the photo, Iíd speculate that is pretty much bang on where the bunkers are today as the mounds on the left and right, and the orientation of the island in the background are spot on in terms of whatís there now.

[/size][size=78%]What is interesting to me is that the bunker walls extend almost to the top of the ridge that we know now, versus today the bunkers are quite low with a slope of grass to get the ball over.[/size]

Peter Flory

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Re: #14 at North Berwick (West) - "Perfection", or a real dud?
« Reply #58 on: September 09, 2020, 02:53:02 AM »
I'd vote to restore it. 

Niall C

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Re: #14 at North Berwick (West) - "Perfection", or a real dud?
« Reply #59 on: September 09, 2020, 07:34:10 AM »
Two things about the painting;

1 - from the vantage point of the artist you can see the 3rd hole and the Redan, the wall etc. If you were standing in front of the existing bunker, could you see the same view or would it be blocked out by the mounds/dunes ?

2 - the player and all the spectators are clearly focusing on something on the other side of the bunker. With the bank that is there now they wouldn't be doing that.

That leads me to the conclusion that either the bank has been raised as has the mounding on the right handside, or the bunker that is being played over in the painting is a now NLE bunker that was situated between the existing bunkers and the wall and on the same line, the remains of which can possibly be seen in the aerial photo Tony posted.

The only problem with that theory is the painting appears to be from a similar time as the layout Josh posted and there is no sign of an additional bunker in that plan.  :-\

Niall

Marty Bonnar

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Re: #14 at North Berwick (West) - "Perfection", or a real dud?
« Reply #60 on: September 09, 2020, 07:57:51 AM »
Give it five minutes. A newly-discovered Tillinghast sketch will clarify everything.
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: #14 at North Berwick (West) - "Perfection", or a real dud?
« Reply #61 on: September 09, 2020, 07:58:23 AM »
Two things about the painting;

1 - from the vantage point of the artist you can see the 3rd hole and the Redan, the wall etc. If you were standing in front of the existing bunker, could you see the same view or would it be blocked out by the mounds/dunes ?

2 - the player and all the spectators are clearly focusing on something on the other side of the bunker. With the bank that is there now they wouldn't be doing that.

That leads me to the conclusion that either the bank has been raised as has the mounding on the right handside, or the bunker that is being played over in the painting is a now NLE bunker that was situated between the existing bunkers and the wall and on the same line, the remains of which can possibly be seen in the aerial photo Tony posted.

The only problem with that theory is the painting appears to be from a similar time as the layout Josh posted and there is no sign of an additional bunker in that plan.  :-\

Niall


See my comment on Artistic License above.  And yes I've sought out that view and it exists pretty much as shown..
Let's make GCA grate again!

Marty Bonnar

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Re: #14 at North Berwick (West) - "Perfection", or a real dud?
« Reply #62 on: September 09, 2020, 08:05:47 AM »
Thereís some GCAers playing it on Sunday. Perhaps they might try to re-create the vision!
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

MCirba

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Re: #14 at North Berwick (West) - "Perfection", or a real dud?
« Reply #63 on: September 09, 2020, 08:07:24 AM »
I would completely agree with my replies #14 and #15 from 2005.

Good to see I'm still in agreement with myself.


Mike


Re post 14, I've only played 2 Gil Hanse courses but don't recall him giving you a totally blind approach off a good drive. Even with the raised road at Craighead I think you can still see the flag from what I recall. Did he design a totally blind hole anywhere else ?


Re post 15 - my understanding is that "Perfection" originally got it's name because of the need to hit a perfect drive and a perfect approach, not just a perfect approach. In other words no one was getting home off an indifferent drive.


Niall
Niall,

Someone may step in and correct me and the hole has been softened by others since I played it way back then but the 16th hole at Hanse's Inniscrone was the inspiration for my statement at the time.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Josh Bills

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Re: #14 at North Berwick (West) - "Perfection", or a real dud?
« Reply #64 on: September 09, 2020, 09:43:52 AM »
Here is an article from Golf Illustrated dated January 19, 1900 showing the Perfection bunker (ignore the title, the Redan was the next photo).  I have increased the size to make it more clear.  Looks like a great hazard, but I would guess the painting is due to artistic license. 



Bryan Izatt

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Re: #14 at North Berwick (West) - "Perfection", or a real dud?
« Reply #65 on: September 09, 2020, 11:39:43 AM »

If you look at the old photo, there are at least 4 sets of stairs leading out of the the bunker, each consisting of 5 or six steps which would be about a 5 foot rise. If you look at the survey diagram below, which is drawn to scale, you can see that the bunker is around 60 yards tip to tip and about 40 yards from the gate in the wall.  That means that the bunker would extend a bit into what is now the rough at the end of the fairway. There are also little nubs on the back of the bunker that I believe represent the stairs out of the bunker.  The notes indicate that the bunker is 1 to 5 feet deep, presumably deeper on the left and shallower on the right as the ridge declines from left to right.  You can click through most of the images for a larger version.





From the routing map that used to hang in the starters hut and that is from around the late 1800's, the bunker, called Barricade, also drawn to scale is shown to be the same crescent shape and has 4 nubs on the back side also, I think, signifying the steps out of the bunker. The right tip points towards the opening in the wall that is now in front and right of the current 4th tee.  You can click through to get a larger image.



Going back to the painting, only the right side 2 stairs are visible and that is were they are crossing the bunker.  Given the crescent shape of the bunker, crossing the bunker at right angles at the right end could well be on a line to the green.



Here are two current images of the area, the first one from below and the second from on top looking east with both Bass Rock and Craigleith in the background.




« Last Edit: September 09, 2020, 11:42:35 AM by Bryan Izatt »

Marty Bonnar

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Re: #14 at North Berwick (West) - "Perfection", or a real dud?
« Reply #66 on: September 09, 2020, 11:45:17 AM »
The painting is the artistís concoction of a number of historical figures, so is defo a work of fantasy.
However, the angles are possible. Hereís the current aerial with the bunkers of the Redan in a similar alignment to the painting:

Would the GCAers playing it on Sunday please have a look!?
Cheers,
F.


PS This post and Bryanís passed in cyberspace. His photo shows it really well!
« Last Edit: September 09, 2020, 11:47:28 AM by Marty Bonnar »
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Niall C

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Re: #14 at North Berwick (West) - "Perfection", or a real dud?
« Reply #67 on: September 09, 2020, 04:15:09 PM »
So Drummer Boy, are you basically agreeing with me that what appears to be a disused grassed in bunker in that aerial might be the bunker in the painting ?

Niall

Marty Bonnar

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Re: #14 at North Berwick (West) - "Perfection", or a real dud?
« Reply #68 on: September 09, 2020, 05:29:40 PM »
So Drummer Boy, are you basically agreeing with me that what appears to be a disused grassed in bunker in that aerial might be the bunker in the painting ?

Niall


No, I was more thinking itís that bunker in the bottom right corner of the aerial?
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Josh Bills

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Re: #14 at North Berwick (West) - "Perfection", or a real dud?
« Reply #69 on: September 10, 2020, 08:49:59 AM »
Here is my photo from July 2016 and it looks like that ridge does extend well to the right.  Shame they lost the cool looking stairs and railroad ties, but I still thoroughly enjoyed the hole and played a lucky 2nd shot close to the pin, and managed to miss the putt. 



Tim Gallant

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Re: #14 at North Berwick (West) - "Perfection", or a real dud?
« Reply #70 on: September 11, 2020, 04:25:38 AM »
Iím there tomorrow and Sunday and will try to remember to take photos! Exciting find though - I knew the bunker was one before it split, but didnít think it extended as far as it did

Ben Stephens

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Re: #14 at North Berwick (West) - "Perfection", or a real dud?
« Reply #71 on: September 11, 2020, 06:57:03 AM »

The old shaping was more jagged edged around the bunker surrounds.


If it was reinterpreted in a modern way here is a crude image

« Last Edit: September 11, 2020, 06:59:11 AM by Ben Stephens »

Peter Flory

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Re: #14 at North Berwick (West) - "Perfection", or a real dud?
« Reply #72 on: September 11, 2020, 08:01:28 PM »
I like the intimidation factor of the military bunker.  Must have been terrifying with a gutty and the wind. 

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