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PPallotta

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2020, 01:18:43 AM »
Like everyone else, I hope Tom and his team get to create the new Lido. But Lido is so iconic/mythic, so represents the very best of the golden age, and so exemplifies the principles and philosophies of great golf course architecture, that I can't help but wonder: where will/can we go from there? What will there be left to discuss (and debate) if/when the mythic becomes the real, and the exemplification is once again embodied? Will the new Lido be the exclamation point to this our 2nd golden age, or its epitaph? Will it be the final word, or instead a signpost to the future? Or neither? Or both?


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +0/-1
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2020, 07:29:17 AM »
Like everyone else, I hope Tom and his team get to create the new Lido. But Lido is so iconic/mythic, so represents the very best of the golden age, and so exemplifies the principles and philosophies of great golf course architecture, that I can't help but wonder: where will/can we go from there? What will there be left to discuss (and debate) if/when the mythic becomes the real, and the exemplification is once again embodied? Will the new Lido be the exclamation point to this our 2nd golden age, or its epitaph? Will it be the final word, or instead a signpost to the future? Or neither? Or both?


Like many highly-ranked modern courses, the original Lido also benefited from an oceanfront site, and I wonder how much that had to do with its own high ranking.  This is one way to find out!


If I thought recreating it would end the quest of golf architecture, I would not go there.  But that's ridiculous.  There are lots of things still to be done, and I am working on a few of them concurrently, as I am sure others are, too.  Hopefully the Lido does not suck all the oxygen out of the room, as there will be lots of other courses to talk about, too.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2020, 11:37:52 AM »
Iím sure this Golf Illustrated article by C.B. MacDonald describing Lido has already been posted somewhere, but it seems appropriate to include it here:


https://cpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/campuspress.yale.edu/dist/5/258/files/2015/04/Golf-Illustrated_1915_07_Macdonald-2ec6sp5.pdf
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2020, 11:41:26 AM »
I'm a bit more in touch with the retail golfer than most of you. Nobody gives a shit about Lido. The name alone is reason to stay away.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2020, 11:43:58 AM »
I'm a bit more in touch with the retail golfer than most of you. Nobody gives a shit about Lido. The name alone is reason to stay away.
John - this is not for the retail golfer. Itís intended to be a private club. Concept and pretense sells private memberships. You should have first hand knowledge of that.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2020, 11:48:49 AM »
I'm a bit more in touch with the retail golfer than most of you. Nobody gives a shit about Lido. The name alone is reason to stay away.
John - this is not for the retail golfer. Itís intended to be a private club. Concept and pretense sells private memberships. You should have first hand knowledge of that.


Well you better put it on water with an infinite view because I don't want to have to explain to my guests why it's good.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2020, 11:51:24 AM »
I'm a bit more in touch with the retail golfer than most of you. Nobody gives a shit about Lido. The name alone is reason to stay away.
John - this is not for the retail golfer. Itís intended to be a private club. Concept and pretense sells private memberships. You should have first hand knowledge of that.


Well you better put it on water with an infinite view because I don't want to have to explain to my guests why it's good.
So, youíre joining?
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2020, 11:58:12 AM »
Joining? My best plan is surviving.


There will be some world class opportunities in the upcoming years so I'm not going to say never. Maybe it's just cause of 2020 but this joiner would be happy to wave a lamp from the caboose of life.

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2020, 01:08:18 PM »
I have found that trying to replicate anything in golf (whether it be a golf course, a golf trip or otherwise)  is often not successful.  Here is hoping that the scope of the project changes and Tom can insert his creativity into the design to maximize the interest of the golf course.  I highly doubt that MacDonald would just recreate the Lido and not use any opportunities to better the course if alive today.  Further, John Kavanaugh is right.  The "retail golfer" does not care what the Lido was.  They just want a great golf course.  Why limit yourself?


Just look at Old Macdonald.  The 7th hole is one of the most unique and interesting holes on that golf course and it is the one hole that is void of a Macdonald template.



"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #34 on: August 03, 2020, 01:23:03 PM »
I have found that trying to replicate anything in golf (whether it be a golf course, a golf trip or otherwise)  is often not successful.  Here is hoping that the scope of the project changes and Tom can insert his creativity into the design to maximize the interest of the golf course.  I highly doubt that MacDonald would just recreate the Lido and not use any opportunities to better the course if alive today.  Further, John Kavanaugh is right.  The "retail golfer" does not care what the Lido was.  They just want a great golf course.  Why limit yourself?

Just look at Old Macdonald.  The 7th hole is one of the most unique and interesting holes on that golf course and it is the one hole that is void of a Macdonald template.

No template could get you up the hill to the best drink shack in golf. 

PPallotta

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #35 on: August 03, 2020, 01:57:16 PM »
On the other hand, maybe the average retail golfer likes and cares about exactly what he's told to like and care about -- that's why he's an average retail golfer. The story that can be told about the new Lido writes itself, especially in an era of 300 word articles that are barely disguised press releases.  Maybe when the time comes I'll ask Mr K if I can write the press release, free of charge. With his clout/reputation and my stellar writing abilities we'll be able to close the book on the 2nd golden age in a snap.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 02:01:49 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #36 on: August 03, 2020, 03:02:48 PM »
I'm guessing Mike perhaps sees a bit more risk in this project hence making it private.

ďThe mistake I made with The Dunes Club is that it isnít public,Ē Keiser says. ďIím definitely a public golf guy. Of course, had it been public, it wouldnít have made any money because itís only nine holes. But Iíve never wanted to have anything but public golf ever since. Thatís my mission.Ē

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/why-the-keiser-method-works

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #37 on: August 03, 2020, 04:03:04 PM »
Just a few thoughts based on all the reading that I've done on it and the digital recreation efforts-

I don't really obsess about the Ocean much when I think about the original Lido.  It only came into play on one hole and even that was very temporary.  For most of its life, there was a boardwalk and a wall of cabanas blocking off the view of the Atlantic entirely from the course, yet it was still considered to be great.  The original 8th was visually glorious with the Ocean bordering it and that version will have to remain in golf heaven.  But the original 8th was a template after all and the Ocean part was just a bonus in the original version- atypical for a Biarritz.  It's not like we are underwhelmed when we step up to the 3rd tee at Chicago GC.  And who knows, maybe there will be a hazard there that will make it somewhere in between Chicago GC and the original.

On the other end of the property, you had the Channel.  Again, it only came into play on one hole and rarely at that.  There was a 10 yard buffer over the 3rd green to catch overplays and the hole was relatively long with a pitched Eden green.  On the 4th, the right fairway was not the common path and there was 30+ yards of sandy waste area before the water came into play (you had an entire fairway's width of buffer).  Up by the green, there was another 30 yard sandy buffer. 

The interior water hazard came into play much more frequently.  It came into play over the green on the 2nd, to the left on the 3rd, on the drive and 2nd shot on the 4th, over the green on the 11th, on the tee shot on the 12th, and over the green on the 16th since the ground chased down toward it over the green.  That interior hazard will obviously have to be reconstructed and should preserve the original challenges.

It's tempting to dwell on the negatives, so here are some positives to consider:
- the sandy wasteland of SV will be a fantastic substitute for the sandy wasteland around the perimeter of the Lido and in pockets on the interior.  The original course had more than 3,000 yards of that on the perimeter and it was mostly what was talked about in the writings.  The SV sand is not as soft as the Lido sand and should be slightly more recoverable.  I think that is a good thing.
- the wind patterns for Lido Beach and Sand Valley are almost identical in terms of prevailing winds and wind speeds.  That was the other thing most mentioned about the original- how the wind was the ever present defense.  Sand Valley averages 2 MPH more in wind than Lido Beach, which is very lucky. 
- The SV version will drain way better than the original because the original had a water table just below the surface.  The area to the East of the Lido was swampy and mosquitoes were supposedly horrible there.  In some of the photos, there is standing water in the bunkers.  SV drains incredibly well and always plays F&F.
- The SV version will have no road with heavy traffic bisecting it.  As I said earlier, this seemed to be the major reason that they didn't rebuild it on the original site and instead opted to build more to the East. 

But the biggest positive could be that it would exist vs not exist.  Lido was designed to be a strategic masterpiece with every hump, bump, and bunker purposefully placed.  That should remain no matter what the background looks like.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 04:09:35 PM by Peter Flory »

Mark Hissey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2020, 08:54:39 PM »
It is incredibly difficult, if not impossible, to find a site that compares to the original. Water on both sides, orientation, and dead flat so you could replicate the original. So, there will have to be compromises made in order to re-create it. The right acreage, with the right dimensions, and on a dead flat site would be needed to replicate The Lido properly. Unfortunately, making it land-locked is unavoidable.


I scouted numerous sites all over Long Island to find an appropriate site. I narrowed it down to Eisenhower Park, Bethpage, Heckscher Park, Kings Park Psychiatric Center, and Colonial Springs. Eisenhower might have worked, but the county ownership was an issue. There was another site that showed real promise, and still could.


My personal belief is that The Lido is important enough to recreate as identically as possible to the original. Montecassino, the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour, the Amber Room, St Markís Campanile, Frauenkirche have all been rebuilt and the world is better for it. Iíd argue that The Lido deserves the same.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #39 on: August 03, 2020, 09:54:18 PM »
I just read again about Lido in George Bahto's book and I am not as enthusiastic as some with respect to recreating it.  First, it had the reputation of being a very hard golf course with provisions made for golfers of lesser abilities but that often circumvented the true strategy of the hole.  It is also noted that the sand in the area was not conducive to growing grass and the land was too low so they had to bring in an incredible amount of fill to bring it up and to have soil upon which you could grow grass.  The whole course was just the dream of a group of very wealthy men who wanted to build a toy for themselves while recognizing that the NGLA could never be equaled.

CJames

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #40 on: August 04, 2020, 12:12:56 AM »
Oceans are nice, but itís the wind, the ground, and the strategy that make a golf course.  If Lido was considered by no less an authority than Bernard Darwin to be in the very same class as NGLA and Pine Valley back when it was built in the Golden Age, why wouldnít those essentially identical 18 holes offer the same quality of superior golf today?  Particularly when you have Tom Doak and Peter Flory behind you?  There were a few voices of doubt and even cynicism here on the site back in 2013-14 when news of Sand Valley first hit GCA.com.  I again will readily cast my lot with the Keisers over the doubters here.  To paraphrase what a famous former Wisconsinite said to his doubters back in 1996: ďAll I can tell people that donít believe me is: Just bet against (them).Ē 

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #41 on: August 04, 2020, 07:48:44 AM »
I want to be clear, I don't believe that I am in a position where my opinion regarding building Lido in Wisconsin is one to be seriously considered rather I was raising the basic question of why do it?  I know it would be a cool thing to do but what in particular is it about Lido that makes building it in Wisconsin the thing to do?  Bahto pointed out that the cape hole at Lido had no water but I believe TD did that at Old Mac.  I have been to Sand Valley and given the chance I would go back tomorrow - SV is a really good C & C course while Mammoth Dunes is right at the top of my list of courses which are the most fun to play.  Perhaps I should ask how this will be different from Old MacDonald at Bandon which has a great collection of CBM template holes.  Just being silly now but how about building a course after Royal Melbourne which is in a sand belt and most importantly most US golfers will never see in person. 

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #42 on: August 04, 2020, 10:30:02 AM »
From what I've heard it may be a bit of a real estate development. Good ol' fashioned selling lots to pay for the golf course. So, perhaps the course will be built more quickly depending on interest in joining/building at the club.


I thought Tom Doak's Sand Valley course was officially on hold due to the economy?


Both courses are on hold. Been hearing about Lido at SV for months.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2020, 10:47:27 AM »
Last night this thread got me to reading some older threads. I came across one about The Links Club on Long Island in which Tom Paul and some others offered entertainment and insight. I do wish some of the regular posters from those days who are still with us would come back to the site. As a relative newbie, I never got the full benefit from them. Selfish I know, but still would be great.


Ira

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2020, 10:52:43 AM »
I'm guessing Mike perhaps sees a bit more risk in this project hence making it private.

ďThe mistake I made with The Dunes Club is that it isnít public,Ē Keiser says. ďIím definitely a public golf guy. Of course, had it been public, it wouldnít have made any money because itís only nine holes. But Iíve never wanted to have anything but public golf ever since. Thatís my mission.Ē

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/why-the-keiser-method-works


Well - in listening to one of the GCA podcasts...maybe the Yolk with Doak, they mention that MK was going to make the Sheep Ranch private, but then he started hearing (and enjoying) all the headlines that he was receiving for being the savior of public golf.


To be fair for a "public golf guy" MK belongs to what, a dozen exclusive private clubs? ::)
H.P.S.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2020, 11:08:50 AM »
I'm guessing Mike perhaps sees a bit more risk in this project hence making it private.

ďThe mistake I made with The Dunes Club is that it isnít public,Ē Keiser says. ďIím definitely a public golf guy. Of course, had it been public, it wouldnít have made any money because itís only nine holes. But Iíve never wanted to have anything but public golf ever since. Thatís my mission.Ē

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/why-the-keiser-method-works





To be fair for a "public golf guy" MK belongs to what, a dozen exclusive private clubs? ::)


Pat-Does that in any way diminish his contribution to the modern golf landscape?

George Myers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2020, 12:35:44 PM »
I'm a bit more in touch with the retail golfer than most of you. Nobody gives a shit about Lido. The name alone is reason to stay away.


70's rock song?

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2020, 12:47:39 PM »
I'm guessing Mike perhaps sees a bit more risk in this project hence making it private.

ďThe mistake I made with The Dunes Club is that it isnít public,Ē Keiser says. ďIím definitely a public golf guy. Of course, had it been public, it wouldnít have made any money because itís only nine holes. But Iíve never wanted to have anything but public golf ever since. Thatís my mission.Ē

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/why-the-keiser-method-works





To be fair for a "public golf guy" MK belongs to what, a dozen exclusive private clubs? ::)


Pat-Does that in any way diminish his contribution to the modern golf landscape?


No - but it makes me roll my eyes when guys when the PR machine turns out article after article on how he's saving public golf...one $300 five-hour round at a time. It's a successful business model, and all power to him, but calling himself a "public golf guy" as if he is going around saving small town Muni's is appropriate either.
H.P.S.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +0/-1
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2020, 01:29:01 PM »
I want to be clear, I don't believe that I am in a position where my opinion regarding building Lido in Wisconsin is one to be seriously considered rather I was raising the basic question of why do it?  I know it would be a cool thing to do but what in particular is it about Lido that makes building it in Wisconsin the thing to do? 


 Just being silly now but how about building a course after Royal Melbourne which is in a sand belt and most importantly most US golfers will never see in person.


Well, Lido has been gone for 75 years, and people are still interested in it, so that's why it's of interest to developers.  Several, apparently!


Royal Melbourne, though, is still there, albeit a long flight away, and they wouldn't let you in the country right now.  Still, I would never think of copying an existing course like that [and ESPECIALLY NOT one where I consult  :o ].


Many years ago it was suggested that the Japanese were building a replica of The Old Course at St. Andrews -- they named the course New St. Andrews, but it was not built to resemble the Old Course.  If you were going to copy a course, that would be the obvious choice, but building it without the town would probably disappoint.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #49 on: August 04, 2020, 02:02:39 PM »
Just a few thoughts based on all the reading that I've done on it and the digital recreation efforts-

I don't really obsess about the Ocean much when I think about the original Lido.  It only came into play on one hole and even that was very temporary.  For most of its life, there was a boardwalk and a wall of cabanas blocking off the view of the Atlantic entirely from the course, yet it was still considered to be great.  The original 8th was visually glorious with the Ocean bordering it and that version will have to remain in golf heaven.  But the original 8th was a template after all and the Ocean part was just a bonus in the original version- atypical for a Biarritz.  It's not like we are underwhelmed when we step up to the 3rd tee at Chicago GC.  And who knows, maybe there will be a hazard there that will make it somewhere in between Chicago GC and the original.

On the other end of the property, you had the Channel.  Again, it only came into play on one hole and rarely at that.  There was a 10 yard buffer over the 3rd green to catch overplays and the hole was relatively long with a pitched Eden green.  On the 4th, the right fairway was not the common path and there was 30+ yards of sandy waste area before the water came into play (you had an entire fairway's width of buffer).  Up by the green, there was another 30 yard sandy buffer. 

The interior water hazard came into play much more frequently.  It came into play over the green on the 2nd, to the left on the 3rd, on the drive and 2nd shot on the 4th, over the green on the 11th, on the tee shot on the 12th, and over the green on the 16th since the ground chased down toward it over the green.  That interior hazard will obviously have to be reconstructed and should preserve the original challenges.

It's tempting to dwell on the negatives, so here are some positives to consider:
- the sandy wasteland of SV will be a fantastic substitute for the sandy wasteland around the perimeter of the Lido and in pockets on the interior.  The original course had more than 3,000 yards of that on the perimeter and it was mostly what was talked about in the writings.  The SV sand is not as soft as the Lido sand and should be slightly more recoverable.  I think that is a good thing.
- the wind patterns for Lido Beach and Sand Valley are almost identical in terms of prevailing winds and wind speeds.  That was the other thing most mentioned about the original- how the wind was the ever present defense.  Sand Valley averages 2 MPH more in wind than Lido Beach, which is very lucky. 
- The SV version will drain way better than the original because the original had a water table just below the surface.  The area to the East of the Lido was swampy and mosquitoes were supposedly horrible there.  In some of the photos, there is standing water in the bunkers.  SV drains incredibly well and always plays F&F.
- The SV version will have no road with heavy traffic bisecting it.  As I said earlier, this seemed to be the major reason that they didn't rebuild it on the original site and instead opted to build more to the East. 

But the biggest positive could be that it would exist vs not exist.  Lido was designed to be a strategic masterpiece with every hump, bump, and bunker purposefully placed.  That should remain no matter what the background looks like.
Peter,


Thanks for posting your perspective with so many details.
Tim Weiman

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