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Paul Rudovsky

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #150 on: February 18, 2021, 11:38:14 PM »



As for the WWII/post WWII history of the course, there seems to be some ongoing confusion down in LB.  There were some details in the book that I think got twisted from the time I spoke with Joanne to publication -- for instance, she writes pretty definitively that the "new" RTJ course was built in 1949.  If she got that from the family contacts, I'm fairly certain it's inaccurate.  I also had prior conversations with one of her colleagues who, at the time, was adamant that the RTJ course was built on the same land as the original.






Phil--I am close to 100% sure that the footprint of the RTJ course does not overly any of the original...and if it does it is maybe 10-30 yards of the original (East to West).  A couple of years ago I played Rockaway Hunt Club with a guy whose dad had a lease on the RTJ course and operated it for a while.  I will ask him to review our posts...




Phil Carlucci

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #151 on: February 19, 2021, 12:00:54 AM »
Phil--I am close to 100% sure that the footprint of the RTJ course does not overly any of the original...and if it does it is maybe 10-30 yards of the original (East to West).  A couple of years ago I played Rockaway Hunt Club with a guy whose dad had a lease on the RTJ course and operated it for a while.  I will ask him to review our posts...

There is no overlap between the present-day RTJ Lido and the original.  My point was that some of the area historians have occasionally confused some of the facts that those focused on the golf history know well.  Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Golf On Long Island: www.GolfOnLongIsland.com
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Tim_Weiman

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #152 on: February 19, 2021, 12:25:04 AM »
Iím really excited to see this course. As Iíve mentioned many times on this site, Iím a massive fan of the Macdonald/Raynor style and have wondered why it was abandoned. With the South Course at Arcadia Bluffs
and now the recreation of the Lido I feel like Iím dreaming! 😂


One serious question... will the course be listed as a CB Macdonald design or a Doak design? Or, a collaboration?




I have no idea what's appropriate, and I don't really care all that much whether I am the "designer" or just the "builder".  Never have cared much about titles, honestly.  But if we credit the other guys who contributed [MacKenzie, Tom Simpson] as well as Macdonald and Raynor, I guess that would be a pretty good list to be a co-designer with!  ;)
Tom,


Being the ďbuilderĒ in this case ainít too bad.


Wow. I didnít know Tom Simpson was involved. Can you tell us anything about his role?
Tim Weiman

Peter Flory

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #153 on: February 19, 2021, 12:44:27 AM »
Here are a few images to help visualize:

Old footprint vs RTJ version:



See that row of houses bordering the RTJ Lido, just north of the road?  I wonder if those were developed by Seiden and that was another factor that caused them to want to use that site.  I mentioned that the bisecting road was another reason and they studied various ways to sold it and costed them out (according to Belli).  But you can also see that the new site is just better- no road and more frontage.


WWII related construction on the original site.  You can see the lagoon still:



« Last Edit: February 19, 2021, 12:50:08 AM by Peter Flory »

Peter Flory

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #154 on: February 19, 2021, 01:23:42 AM »
Simpson submitted a hole design during the Lido competition.  The article that published this said that he did not submit it.  But there is another one that says that he withdrew his entry because his good friend (Fowler) was one of the judges on the committee. 

Whatever the case, it is very obvious that CBM used Simpsons's design.  He just mirror imaged it so that it would fit where he needed it to go in the overall routing.

Simpson had a natural area/ waste area it appears in the Y past the berms.  In some of the areas of the actual course this area looks like a bunker and in some others it looks more like it was a waste area. 

I've been very amazed by how closely they build the holes to plans. 
This is an example of a period of time when the middle area appears to be a natural area. 


And here was an earlier version from 1926 where the central bunker looked like sand.  255 to carry the central bunker from the back tee, which was absolutely impossible in the teens, but probably became possible for the biggest hitters in the 20's.  This hole was just over 400 yards from tee to green on a straight line.  So I think that for 90% of players, the central bunkers will still create a dilemma.  And if it is into the wind, then a dilemma for scratch players/ bigger hitters. 


For anyone here familiar with Olympia Fields South, I think that #11 at OFCC South is the closest thing to this hole that I can imagine in terms of dynamics, even though it is much shorter at 325 on a straight line.  The creek is what keeps players in check though w/ 275 required to carry it.  You can either layup short right and get a tough angle on the approach, you can go medium and to the left to get the best approach, or you can go for it and clear everything with a driver, but it bottle necks and you're likely to have a tricky pitch. 



I don't think that Steve restored this hole to its original version here, so I would be very curious to know what his though process was.  I can't imagine that he referenced Simpson's design, but I gotta tip my hat to him either way.  If you haven't played this hole, you should know that the green is much easier to approach from the left due to the way that the back half is a mini punch bowl and you can skip it in. 

It has always been a fascinating hole to me because of the variety of ways that scratch players play it in a tournament.  I usually hit a hybrid left and try to give myself the skip in approach.  Many will aim for the right fairway with a long iron and then fly in a PW.  But many others try to carry the creek and get the ball near the green or on it- though that is rare. This hole is shorter than the Lido version and it isn't exposed to the wind.  So, I imagine that the Lido version was endlessly interesting.   
« Last Edit: February 19, 2021, 01:45:26 AM by Peter Flory »

Jeff Schley

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #155 on: February 19, 2021, 02:08:42 AM »
Peter interesting comparison that hits home. I typically have to use a 5 wood and choke up a little to go right as with the tree my 5 iron can be too low and not clear the tree if I yank it a tad. I only go right if the pin is in the front, otherwise try to go left. Indeed I have seen guys hit into the bunkers off the tee and god bless em, but if you don't hit it solid or pull it a tad the water is a possibility.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Jeff_Lewis

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #156 on: February 20, 2021, 01:12:58 PM »
Every time Peter Flory and The Lido come up, I have to repeat myself.


THIS IS THE COOLEST GOLF COURSE ARCHITECTURE THING EVER!


His simulation, his research, and now Tom's re-creation with Peter's participation.   Coolest!!

Peter Flory

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #157 on: February 21, 2021, 12:59:07 PM »
Not sure if this has been posted before, but here is a much better look at the structures that were built on the Lido site by the Navy.  It's not terribly interesting, but just adding to the collective knowledge. 

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #158 on: February 21, 2021, 01:10:48 PM »
Peter:


That photo really shows how much of a project it would have been to rebuild the course after WWII.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #159 on: July 20, 2021, 09:43:57 AM »
I've been following the progress of both the Sand Valley Lido and Ballyshear with great interest. One thing that struck me about the latter is that the course appears (at least in photos) incredibly manicured. I don't necessarily mean the greens/fairways, but more the areas off the fairways and around the bunkers. I know their concept isn't an exact replica, but looking at photos of the original, one of the coolest parts for me seemed to be the conditioning of the non-mowed surfaces, and how 'rough' it looked. I'm sure you can create the Lido down to the square inch, but without that same rugged, adventurous conditioning, can any course ever truly capture the essence of what the lost Lido was?


Apologies if this was covered before - had a scan through some threads, but couldn't find anything on this specific point, but might have missed it!





Ronald Montesano

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #160 on: July 20, 2021, 11:00:08 AM »
TG...I think that the detail of Wisconsin will be exquisite in its accuracy, in ways that none of us would consider (other than PF and TD and anyone else on GCA working on the project.)
Maybe for 2022
~Eden Valley
~Hillview
~Pinehurst (NY)
~Kis 'N Greens
~Pine Meadows
~18 Mile Creek
~Greenwood
~Shawnee
~Leroy
~

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +0/-1
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #161 on: July 21, 2021, 09:39:33 PM »
I've been following the progress of both the Sand Valley Lido and Ballyshear with great interest. One thing that struck me about the latter is that the course appears (at least in photos) incredibly manicured. I don't necessarily mean the greens/fairways, but more the areas off the fairways and around the bunkers. I know their concept isn't an exact replica, but looking at photos of the original, one of the coolest parts for me seemed to be the conditioning of the non-mowed surfaces, and how 'rough' it looked. I'm sure you can create the Lido down to the square inch, but without that same rugged, adventurous conditioning, can any course ever truly capture the essence of what the lost Lido was?


Apologies if this was covered before - had a scan through some threads, but couldn't find anything on this specific point, but might have missed it!


The Asian golfer insists on a very manicured golf course, so I would expect their version of the Lido to look more parkland than links.


Perhaps the comparison between the two projects should have focused more on the clients and what they have said about their goals for the two projects.

DJohnson

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #162 on: August 18, 2021, 03:59:09 PM »
credit to twitter @patrickjkoenig

DJohnson

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #163 on: August 18, 2021, 04:00:35 PM »
see more at his TWITTER POST



Tom_Doak

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #164 on: August 19, 2021, 09:18:43 AM »
It took me a minute to place that last photo -- the bottom part of it is the 17th fairway, playing from right to left.  You'd think that such rugged contours would be around a green somewhere, but you'd be wrong:  those are in the landing area, if you play the tee shot to the left of center.  Macdonald wanted to reward a good drive down the right with more roll-out and an easier stance for the carry over the cross bunkers.

Niall C

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #165 on: August 20, 2021, 07:57:25 AM »
It took me a minute to place that last photo -- the bottom part of it is the 17th fairway, playing from right to left.  You'd think that such rugged contours would be around a green somewhere, but you'd be wrong:  those are in the landing area, if you play the tee shot to the left of center.  Macdonald wanted to reward a good drive down the right with more roll-out and an easier stance for the carry over the cross bunkers.

That idea reminds me of Foxy at RDGC with the moguls on the right and the flatter area on the left. A cool feature and perhaps the best (only ?) good thing about the hole.

Niall

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #166 on: August 20, 2021, 09:16:33 AM »
You might want to check out the YOK 8 thread here: https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,70120.0.html


Just saying ...
Maybe for 2022
~Eden Valley
~Hillview
~Pinehurst (NY)
~Kis 'N Greens
~Pine Meadows
~18 Mile Creek
~Greenwood
~Shawnee
~Leroy
~

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #167 on: August 21, 2021, 02:01:21 AM »
Wonderful project and highly anticipated as there aren't many new courses being built period nowadays. Add the history of the project and it is intriguing. Question would be since the creation is so predicated on replicating as much as possible the original Lido, what special maintenance practices would be needed as compared to the other SV courses? Maybe losing green sizes/dimensions over time or bunker configurations, etc?
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Bret Lawrence

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #168 on: August 21, 2021, 09:21:04 AM »
The pictures posted on Twitter a few days ago are excellent! I like what I see so far.  Looks like the skeleton of Lido is coming to life.

Tom Bacsanyi

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #169 on: August 21, 2021, 12:42:38 PM »
Wonderful project and highly anticipated as there aren't many new courses being built period nowadays. Add the history of the project and it is intriguing. Question would be since the creation is so predicated on replicating as much as possible the original Lido, what special maintenance practices would be needed as compared to the other SV courses? Maybe losing green sizes/dimensions over time or bunker configurations, etc?


One thing I see right off the bat is differentiating between bunkers and waste areas. What are bunkers, where you don't want any vegetation growing in them, and sandy wastes, where some random vegetation here and there is desired? Seems like that would be tricky and require an artistic touch. You can't just leave the sandy wastes alone, or they will fill with trees, weeds, grass etc. and become mostly vegetation, but you don't want to kill yourself spraying and mechanically removing all vegetation.


The good news is I believe the other SV courses probably have a solid plan for such areas in place.
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Thomas Dai

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #170 on: September 17, 2021, 03:46:24 AM »
Iíve been following the terrific course construction photos posted by Brian Schneider on Instagram.
They seem to highlight, at least to me, how golf was once an obstacle course game, albeit one played with a stick and a ball.
Shame that the obstacle course nature of the game is something thatís been lost to golf over the decades.
Atb

Sean_A

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #171 on: September 17, 2021, 04:13:42 AM »
Iíve been following the terrific course construction photos posted by Brian Schneider on Instagram.
They seem to highlight, at least to me, how golf was once an obstacle course game, albeit one played with a stick and a ball.
Shame that the obstacle course nature of the game is something thatís been lost to golf over the decades.
Atb

Yes. A would be good obstacle course I have seen is Walton Heath New. It's been so narrowed that the obstacles are often in the rough. These days we get road map golf.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2023: Cardigan, St David's City, Panmure, Kinghorn, Harrogate, Hinckley, Robin Hood, Sandiway & Ladybank

Matt MacIver

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #172 on: September 17, 2021, 07:41:46 AM »
Pete Dye espoused the obstacles course mentality, which some call target golf, then he got carried away and built obstacles out of the field of play just for astetics. On full display next week at Whistling Straits. Out of play unless DJ finds a ďhazardĒ againÖwonder if you can ground your club this go-around?

Joel_Stewart

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #173 on: September 17, 2021, 10:41:58 AM »
Iíve been following the terrific course construction photos posted by Brian Schneider on Instagram.



He posted a new photo yesterday that is amazing.  The scale of the property looks like its on the scale of Mammoth Dunes. I'm going up next week to take a look.

Jeff Schley

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #174 on: September 17, 2021, 12:08:51 PM »
https://golf.com/travel/the-lido-wisconsin-golf-course/
Another teaser article on golf.com.
Gorgeous progress. Is that Brian Schneider on the green with Peter Flory?
Big props to Peter in the article again. Well done.
  • The Keisers will lean heavily on Peter Flory, a Chicago businessman who researched The Lido for years, going so far as to create a 3D computer model of the original track. His work was so extensive heís been brought on as the projectís consulting historian, an angel on Doakís shoulder.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2021, 12:12:53 PM by Jeff Schley »
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

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