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Dan_Callahan

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #100 on: January 23, 2021, 12:50:23 PM »
How many architects, other than Mike Strantz, have the guts to build a course from scratch on a mostly featureless site and create non-traditional holes? Fazio started with nothing at Shadow Creek, but it looks like a typical, manicured, “fair,” Fazio course. 

Pete Dye at Sawgrass or Whistling Straights maybe? With a few holes anyway.

But if an architect could shape 18 holes however he wanted, how many would chose to build blind shots? Seems to me most would just come up with a really nice, eminently fair and playable design.

Which I think is why I like Strantz so much. He chose to create/add the problems/quirk that make a course like North Berwick so memorable.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2021, 12:52:48 PM by Dan_Callahan »

Sven Nilsen

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #101 on: January 23, 2021, 01:05:27 PM »

The interesting aspect of the course, for me, is that I'm already getting calls about "why don't you do your own ideal course from scratch?".  If we can pull off the Lido to my satisfaction, I might just try it.


A blank slate Doak ideal course?  Please expound.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Michael Whitaker

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #102 on: January 23, 2021, 01:28:57 PM »
The number of golfers I have met who have never even heard of Bandon Dunes always amazes me.  Even living in Seattle, it seemed like 50% of the people I was randomly paired with had not heard of the best resort in the world 7 hours south.  It was always a good reminder of how different my golf reality is from the average player.
Joe - of all the guys in my regular golf circle (maybe 100 or so) only one, besides me... ONE... has been to Bandon. Most regular golfers don’t know about, or care to know about, places like Bandon, StreamSong, or Sand Valley. It really is an exclusive group that keeps those places going.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Steve Lang

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #103 on: January 23, 2021, 01:40:56 PM »
 8)   Yes THE RETAIL GOLFER as Mr Keiser calls the patrons...  hate paying the MSRP more than once...
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Garland Bayley

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #104 on: January 23, 2021, 02:03:01 PM »
The number of golfers I have met who have never even heard of Bandon Dunes always amazes me.  Even living in Seattle, it seemed like 50% of the people I was randomly paired with had not heard of the best resort in the world 7 hours south.  It was always a good reminder of how different my golf reality is from the average player.
Joe - of all the guys in my regular golf circle (maybe 100 or so) only one, besides me... ONE... has been to Bandon. Most regular golfers don’t know about, or care to know about, places like Bandon, StreamSong, or Sand Valley. It really is an exclusive group that keeps those places going.

Everyone I play with has heard of Bandon, and probably more than half have played there. I guess those Boeing people in Seattle have their heads in the sky, and aren't paying attention to what's on the ground. ;)

Perhaps because the Oregon media that we see in SW Washington has made people more aware.
 
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Don Mahaffey

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #105 on: January 23, 2021, 03:58:20 PM »

Don:  I get that some people will dismiss this course as a "cover" but the analogy isn't quite right, because nobody can listen to the original music anymore.  I wouldn't be doing this if the original golf course was still around.
 


I'm certainly not dismissing the course. If cover is the wrong word then maybe reproduction? I do struggle with restoration tho, as I don't see how a course is restored when its built on completely different ground. Regardless of the semantics, what I'm curious about is how you'll go about building it so exactly. Greens built in 1917 were steeper, no?  Construction processes, equipment, expertise was all very different. I hope the restoration word is genuine and honest, not a marketing slogan...because if it truly is a restoration, I think it'll look a lot different than most courses opened in the last two decades.




Tom_Doak

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #106 on: January 23, 2021, 06:27:00 PM »
How many architects, other than Mike Strantz, have the guts to build a course from scratch on a mostly featureless site and create non-traditional holes? Fazio started with nothing at Shadow Creek, but it looks like a typical, manicured, “fair,” Fazio course. 

Pete Dye at Sawgrass or Whistling Straights maybe? With a few holes anyway.

But if an architect could shape 18 holes however he wanted, how many would chose to build blind shots? Seems to me most would just come up with a really nice, eminently fair and playable design.

Which I think is why I like Strantz so much. He chose to create/add the problems/quirk that make a course like North Berwick so memorable.




Dan:


I think you might be surprised.  The holdup is, very few architects ever get the assignment to shape whatever they want. 


Or you might be right.  I think most designers would assume that the client didn't really mean it in regard to certain things, or that the lawyers wouldn't let them build a blind approach or hit over the previous green.  And if the designer owned the course himself, then he would have to think about commercial realities that might compromise his design!


I don't see Whistling Straits as non-traditional.  It's a cross between Ballybunion [Mr. Kohler's model for it] and Pete Dye's general style of design, which I guess is a bit different.


I am not sure that if tasked to do that myself, that I would want to create radically non-traditional holes with multiple fairways and the like.  [I would certainly consider it if that's what a client wanted, but that's not what we are talking about here.]  Instead, I think I would focus on the kinds of holes that are undervalued in golf.  But it is a very tough assignment, because no matter what you do, you only have 18 holes to build, and there will be oodles of things you'd like to do that won't all fit into one course.

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #107 on: January 23, 2021, 06:41:40 PM »

A blank slate Doak ideal course?  Please expound.




Well, it's only been a week since the Lido news was out there, so the calls are very recent and there is not much to expound on yet!


I have never really considered doing an "ideal" course, because I've tried hard not to set my ideals in stone like Macdonald did, or like Pete Dye did.  There are so many ways one could go!


I would not be inclined to do a "best of" course from my own previous work, except for a few holes at High Pointe that I'd love to put back into play somewhere or other.  Maybe there are a few others I came up with for projects that never got built, that would be possible to translate onto a blank site?  There's also the possibility of building something like the original Sheep Ranch -- not just reversible, but with multiple potential routings embedded into the design.


I wish the notion had come up a year ago, when I had all that time with nothing to build.  We are just on the cusp of getting very busy again, and it will be hard to focus on a blank slate plan.  But it might be on my to-do list now.

William_G

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #108 on: January 23, 2021, 06:54:04 PM »

Don:  I get that some people will dismiss this course as a "cover" but the analogy isn't quite right, because nobody can listen to the original music anymore.  I wouldn't be doing this if the original golf course was still around.
 


I'm certainly not dismissing the course. If cover is the wrong word then maybe reproduction? I do struggle with restoration tho, as I don't see how a course is restored when its built on completely different ground. Regardless of the semantics, what I'm curious about is how you'll go about building it so exactly. Greens built in 1917 were steeper, no?  Construction processes, equipment, expertise was all very different. I hope the restoration word is genuine and honest, not a marketing slogan...because if it truly is a restoration, I think it'll look a lot different than most courses opened in the last two decades.


I hope it looks different
It's all about the golf!

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #109 on: January 23, 2021, 07:02:19 PM »
Regardless of the semantics, what I'm curious about is how you'll go about building it so exactly. Greens built in 1917 were steeper, no?  Construction processes, equipment, expertise was all very different. I hope the restoration word is genuine and honest, not a marketing slogan...because if it truly is a restoration, I think it'll look a lot different than most courses opened in the last two decades.


Peter Flory can weigh in on the level of detail he's got for the course, if he wants.  Obviously, the information can't be perfect, so we just have to accept that and do the best we can.


What I can tell you is that I'm sold on the grading plan, because of some of the details I noticed when I looked closely.  For example, the elevation of the backs of the greens on many holes is almost exactly at eye level for the player on the tee, or in the fairway.  I had never really thought about that, because in restoring Macdonald/Raynor courses we don't look at the topo maps much at all, but that is exactly why their greens seem to float in the air with that infinity look behind them.  So I think the model is vastly better than if I had tried to think through such details for all the holes.  And Peter didn't know to think about that . . . he just did his best to render the course, and then a computer program pulled topo information from his model.

You are right that it's likely some of the hole location areas at the Lido were at 4% or 5%, but the greens are pretty big so I suspect that like Chicago Golf Club they will have enough "other" hole locations that it doesn't pose a problem. 

If, say, the top right shelf of the 18th green* was all at 4%, we might modify that to make it work, after we have decided what the green speed of the day will be.  I am honestly not sure if the information I've got is good enough to be sure of such details, but I am conscious that I am working for a client who prefers flattish greens and that there may be some heavy discussions as a result!



* note:  it is clear from the drawings and from photos that Macdonald did not build as much elevation and slope into MacKenzie's ideal finishing hole as what was depicted in Country Life.  [I believe the original drawing had the back of the green at +43 above sea level, and the front at +35.  The highest point at the Lido was the top of the Alps hill, at about +39.]  I know that Macdonald was quoted as being unhappy they hadn't done some things on as big a scale as his original plans, but for the most part, we've got to go with what they did, since he wasn't too specific about what was different.

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #110 on: January 23, 2021, 07:07:09 PM »

I hope it looks different


The trickiest part will be getting the areas outside the turf to look different.  At the Lido, they planted a bunch of marram type grasses straight into the sand originally, and from all accounts it was brutal to play out of, if you could even find your ball.  That probably would not go over very well with the members! 


The areas in between the holes are fairly small, so I'm not worried about it looking like the other courses at Sand Valley in those places; but around the outside of the front nine, it is all sand and native grass, and there are a lot of modern courses that look like that, both in Wisconsin and elsewhere.

Grant Saunders

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #111 on: January 23, 2021, 07:15:55 PM »

Don:  I get that some people will dismiss this course as a "cover" but the analogy isn't quite right, because nobody can listen to the original music anymore.  I wouldn't be doing this if the original golf course was still around.
 


I'm certainly not dismissing the course. If cover is the wrong word then maybe reproduction? I do struggle with restoration tho, as I don't see how a course is restored when its built on completely different ground. Regardless of the semantics, what I'm curious about is how you'll go about building it so exactly. Greens built in 1917 were steeper, no?  Construction processes, equipment, expertise was all very different. I hope the restoration word is genuine and honest, not a marketing slogan...because if it truly is a restoration, I think it'll look a lot different than most courses opened in the last two decades.


Will modern maintenance methods gel with a a faithfully adhered to design?


Will mowing heights be more period appropriate and how much impact the playabilty will be affected by such decisions?

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #112 on: January 23, 2021, 07:34:57 PM »

Will modern maintenance methods gel with a a faithfully adhered to design?

Will mowing heights be more period appropriate and how much impact the playabilty will be affected by such decisions?


Grant:


I don't think we will be mandating that people play with hickories, because those were the standard in 1918, although Peter Flory can and does play with them fairly often.


I imagine we will address those questions the way all the other courses that were built before 1920 have addressed them.

Don Mahaffey

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #113 on: January 24, 2021, 09:46:20 AM »



What I can tell you is that I'm sold on the grading plan, because of some of the details I noticed when I looked closely.  For example, the elevation of the backs of the greens on many holes is almost exactly at eye level for the player on the tee, or in the fairway.  I had never really thought about that, because in restoring Macdonald/Raynor courses we don't look at the topo maps much at all, but that is exactly why their greens seem to float in the air with that infinity look behind them.  So I think the model is vastly better than if I had tried to think through such details for all the holes.  And Peter didn't know to think about that . . . he just did his best to render the course, and then a computer program pulled topo information from his model....

If, say, the top right shelf of the 18th green* was all at 4%, we might modify that to make it work, after we have decided what the green speed of the day will be.  I am honestly not sure if the information I've got is good enough to be sure of such details, but I am conscious that I am working for a client who prefers flattish greens and that there may be some heavy discussions as a result!



Very interesting observation about the elevations at the backs of greens.


Re greens slopes...tell 'em if they are going to market using restoration, then that's what we want... ;D   Seriously, it would be very cool to play the  original Lido, a modernized version doesn't have the same appeal, to me at least...once you start that "adjusting to the present" process, where do you stop? It'd be so unique to experience it as it was.

Lou_Duran

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #114 on: January 24, 2021, 10:26:22 AM »
The number of golfers I have met who have never even heard of Bandon Dunes always amazes me.  Even living in Seattle, it seemed like 50% of the people I was randomly paired with had not heard of the best resort in the world 7 hours south.  It was always a good reminder of how different my golf reality is from the average player.
Joe - of all the guys in my regular golf circle (maybe 100 or so) only one, besides me... ONE... has been to Bandon. Most regular golfers don’t know about, or care to know about, places like Bandon, StreamSong, or Sand Valley. It really is an exclusive group that keeps those places going.


Second that, though my "circle" is considerably smaller.  I have had many similar talks (where have you played?, what are your favorite courses?) with players at a large number of clubs over the years and the urge to seek the far-flung courses we discuss here is limited.  Of Bandon specifically, the relative few who were familiar with the resort and been there reported that they enjoyed the experience but would not return, climate, logistics, cost, type of golf, walking among the reasons cited. 

Steve Lang

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #115 on: January 24, 2021, 10:58:43 AM »
Hey Lou,


Those guys you reference, would you call them or did they know they were "retail golfers"?
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Lou_Duran

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #116 on: January 24, 2021, 12:09:30 PM »
Steve,


We have around 400 members at my home club, the vast majority whom could be described by the non-pejorative definition of "retail golfer".  I suspect that this is also the case with most of the clubs I've visited over the past 30-40 years, though the composition is likely different at older, wealthier clubs in America's original large cities, mainly in the NE, around the Great Lakes, and northern CA.


Mike's point is well-taken.  The market is thin, making the economics particularly dependent on the supply, its cost, compelling architecture/experience (and reputation), and barriers to entry, particularly for the more remote locations like Bandon.

Steve Lang

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #117 on: January 24, 2021, 12:15:01 PM »
 8)  Tom Doak,

From what i remember reading once about the Lido construction engineering, they dredged and pumped a lot of sand slurry to build up the site elevations..  do you believe they built high and let the materials subside before contouring or let the subsidence just happen and create some "natural like" drainage topography?  So do you distinguish between having "macro and micro" type grading plans?  I assume the latter may be partially cut by rainfall events' flows or otherwise directed to available discharge points?


In Reply #107, you mentioned "I would not be inclined to do a "best of" course from my own previous work, except for a few holes at High Pointe that I'd love to put back into play somewhere or other."  Which holes would you consider?  #3 or 4 ? or #13 or 15?  Just wondering...  I've got 10 acres on a hill to build a couple holes on east of Kalkaska off 612...
« Last Edit: January 24, 2021, 12:42:17 PM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

SL_Solow

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #118 on: January 24, 2021, 12:25:14 PM »
One of the most thought provoking comments I have read is Tom's observation regarding the Lido greens being built at eye level to create the illusion of an infinity green.  I will try to observe other greens to see whether this technique is used elsewhere and compare it to other infinity type greens, most of which where the back edge is set higher.

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #119 on: January 24, 2021, 12:29:47 PM »


From what i remember reading once about the Lido construction engineering, they dredged and pumped a lot of sand slurry to build up the site elevations..  do you believe they built high and let the materials subside before contouring or let the subsidence just happen and create some "natural like" drainage topography?  So do you distinguish between having "macro and micro" type grading plans?  I assume the latter may be partially cut by rainfall events' flows or otherwise directed to available discharge points?


In Reply #107, you mentioned "I would not be inclined to do a "best of" course from my own previous work, except for a few holes at High Pointe that I'd love to put back into play somewhere or other."  Which holes would you consider?  #3 or 4 ? or #13 or 15?  Just wondering...


We did the dredge-and-slurry thing on our project in China, and it comes out so wet that the only way to keep shapes in place is to use wooden forms to hold it in until it dries, which I think they tried at Lido.  The natural subsidence is just a blob without any interesting shape.  Macdonald and Raynor had a very precise grading model for what they wanted to build and they would have had to establish those shapes after the material dried out.  Luckily we are working with dry ground in Wisconsin so we can skip that step of the process, but we have other steps to deal with.


The holes at High Pointe I would be inclined to replicate somewhere else are 3, 7, and 13.  There are certainly better versions of the Redan in other places, and a hole like 15 depended on a lot of topography that I wouldn't bother to build just for that effect.  12 and 14 would be two others, but it would take a long time to grow maple trees like the ones I worked around on the 12th.  [Incidentally, that great big sugar maple to the left of 12 green is dead and falling apart now.  I think it must have gotten used to having some irrigation water, and when the water went off it got stressed.   :'( [size=78%]][/size]

Thomas Dai

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #120 on: January 24, 2021, 01:56:59 PM »
The observation regarding the rear of greens being at eyeline height is a fascinating one. I imagine there are probably some other factors within construction, playability etc that such design brings into consideration.
Atb

Peter Flory

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #121 on: January 24, 2021, 02:06:49 PM »
In terms of the available information, I'll just give an example of a hole where I think that Tom and his team can get the accuracy nearly perfect.  The available information and high resolution photos varies across the site, but there is a really good baseline, even for the holes with the least amount of info, mainly because of the detailed plans, some high resolution aerials, and some decent resolution oblique aerials.

Here is an assemblage of information for #3 (Eden).  When building out each hole digitally, I'll just collect everything available for a hole, including all the writings, and try to make the model match from all angles to a reasonable level.  I would expect that my digital model would provide the rough draft and then Tom and his team would mainly work off of the actual source data when they are trying to dial in the accuracy.  They surely won't be able to get it to the inch, but hopefully they could get it to a level where a member from the original Lido wouldn't notice the difference (ignoring the new setting). 

SROLL RIGHT TO SEE THE FULL IMAGES
(in this pic, the guy must be a very reliable ball striker for the caddie and his wife to stand right there.) 

This photo gives some clue as to the back edge of the green, especially in the back right corner.


In photos like these, it's easy to focus on the foreground.  But this provides great info for #4 as well. 


Same pic, but a different cropping and it shows more of the front of the green:


From George's book:  Great look at the fall off in the front left.  And People in the pic give a nice size perspective.  But notice how the front-right part of the green differs from the pic above.  Also, the bunker face differs from the view from the tee.  Those are examples of the things that Tom and his team have to sort through and decision. 


Oblique aerial from the Channel side- this perspective is really great for holes on the North half of the course.  You can see the diagonal ridge for the falloff that matches the pic above.  It also provides a really nice look at what happens over the green and the lips of the traps looking back toward the tee. 


And some vertical aerials- these weren't that helpful for this hole regarding contours, but are for others.  And they were critical to get the fairway lines, green edges, and bunkers right in a 2D sense.  The only tricky part was that some things changed slightly from when it was built to when some of these were taken, so I had to be aware of those changes.


Negative- which can sometimes reveal things that I'd otherwise miss.


Luckily, this was such a famous course that there were lots of photos taken.  I am hopeful that we can uncover some more over the next year.  The aerials that Craig Disher provided were a huge help and he continues to find higher resolution versions. 
« Last Edit: January 24, 2021, 02:17:04 PM by Peter Flory »

Kalen Braley

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #122 on: January 24, 2021, 04:21:30 PM »
I'm curious....how much if any of the water features are included in the project scope at the moment?




Tom_Doak

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #123 on: January 24, 2021, 04:59:52 PM »
I'm curious....how much if any of the water features are included in the project scope at the moment?


The big lagoon in between 3, 4 and 12 is already more than halfway dug.


For the channel behind 3 and to the right of 4, I think we are going to dig a wide ditch full of water, and then say everything across is part of the hazard.  It would be an enormous amount of material to dig out a big lake, which we don't need, and whatever water features we do include have to be lined, which adds to the cost.  I really don't have a sense that many people hit it into Reynolds Channel.


On the south side, obviously we can't dig the Atlantic Ocean, so we will just build a wide beach feature alongside the Biarritz hole.

Peter Flory

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Re: The Lido to be rebuilt in Wisconsin?
« Reply #124 on: January 24, 2021, 05:19:44 PM »
Here is the best that I could do to show what the 8th would look like with the sea of sand and grass concept.  The tree line that you see to the right doesn't necessarily correspond to the site, it is just the edge of my digital plot.  So maybe there will be even longer views out that way which would make it better. 



With the original, you had high tide where waves could sometimes lap to the edge of the green and you'd have low tide where there could be a lot of playable beach.  So if you did put water in there, you'd have to pick a boundary within that range.  But since nothing would do the Atlantic justice and since most of the course's life just had no water and cabanas bordering it, something like the above seems appropriate and not cheesy.  I'd rather play this hole than the inland variant of the 8th at Lido Beach. 

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