[Jeff Schley]

Embarrassment of riches to pick from no doubt.  Curious what Jeff Warne thinks of this.
https://nypost.com/2020/03/28/the-post-ranks-the-best-18-golf-holes-in-new-york-metro-area/

[Ronald Montesano]

They went all in on JC's photos. Nice exposure for him.

[Tom_Doak]

Back in 1982, the MGA did a similar eclectic of the best 18 in the Met area, but they enlisted Ben Crenshaw to play them all in the same day by helicopter, alongside Jay Mottola from the MGA, George Peper from GOLF Magazine, and Roger Maltbie.


There are six courses in the new list that have been built since 1982, but amazingly the older eclectic used only six of the same courses, and on five of them, a different hole was chosen! 


Bonus points for guessing which hole made the cut on both.


Holes and courses from the 1982 list that didn't make the cut this time:


18th Inwood
18th Woodmere
  8th Meadow Brook
17th Stanwich
13th Westchester (W)
18th Knollwood
  6th Metropolis
  4th Quaker Ridge
  9th Ridgewood (W)
  3rd Upper Montclair
  9th Fiddler's Elbow
12th Somerset Hills


I'd have to guess the two writers from the Post have never played Quaker Ridge or Somerset Hills, to leave them off entirely.

[Matt_Cohn]

"with only one hole allowed per course. (If not, 17 holes would be from Shinnecock.)"

Seems like a call-out. Which Shinnecock hole wouldn't be included?

[Kalen Braley]

"with only one hole allowed per course. (If not, 17 holes would be from Shinnecock.)"

Seems like a call-out. Which Shinnecock hole wouldn't be included?

I forget the hole number.  The par 3 that play likes a par 5.. 

[Tim Martin]

"with only one hole allowed per course. (If not, 17 holes would be from Shinnecock.)"

Seems like a call-out. Which Shinnecock hole wouldn't be included?

I forget the hole number.  The par 3 that play likes a par 5.. 

11 is an all world par 3. Surprised that they didn’t take one from Plainfield.

[Tom_Doak]

Surprised that they didn’t take one from Plainfield.

The new list uses the par-5 12th at Plainfield.  The 1982 eclectic used the par-3 11th instead.

[Tim Martin]

Surprised that they didn’t take one from Plainfield.

The new list uses the par-5 12th at Plainfield.  The 1982 eclectic used the par-3 11th instead.

Missed that when I looked at the list. Thanks.

[Peter Pallotta]

I always suspected it, but this list confirmed it: for my kind of golf courses, there are two places in the world where I'd most want to live, i.e. Painswick (England) and Westchester (NY).   

[Keith Phillips]

I might have included the Biarritz at Piping Rock if my top 18 included 7 par 3s???

[jeffwarne]

Embarrassment of riches to pick from no doubt.  Curious what Jeff Warne thinks of this.
https://nypost.com/2020/03/28/the-post-ranks-the-best-18-golf-holes-in-new-york-metro-area/

Random thoughts after a quick glance.
An interesting list-some great holes-clearly they like backdrops.  --Nice pictures in the article by our own Jon Cavalier.
When I have some time I'll look more slowly. At first glance a couple of really boring par 3's.I've played the one at Baltusrol over 100 times..in Florida!-to be fair I've never aced it like the Re-architect

This part kind've confused me- just weird(the part about overseeding? in New York?)
"Though some golf courses in the area are still open for walkers willing to keep an appropriate social distance, the vast majority of courses have closed. If you are lucky enough to have a backyard and bring a club back there, you will soon find out the difference made by over-seeding. And you should remember that when golf courses do reopen, the superintendent deserves a thank you."

[Tom_Doak]

I think by overseeding they meant reseeding divots.


And, since nobody has taken up my challenge above but you mentioned it, you will be pleased to know that the 4th at Baltusrol (Lower) was the only hole picked on both lists! 


I guess they had to pick a hole from Baltusrol, and there really weren't many candidates, unlike at Shinnecock or National or Winged Foot or Garden City.

[Matt_Cohn]

I think by overseeding they meant reseeding divots.


And, since nobody has taken up my challenge above but you mentioned it, you will be pleased to know that the 4th at Baltusrol (Lower) was the only hole picked on both lists! 


I guess they had to pick a hole from Baltusrol, and there really weren't many candidates, unlike at Shinnecock or National or Winged Foot or Garden City.

Wouldn't 3, 5, 10, 15, 17, and 18 at the Lower be better candidates, and perhaps others?

[Tim Martin]

I’ll trade Somerset Hills # 2 with Baltusrol Lower # 4.

[Tom_Doak]

I’ll trade Somerset Hills # 2 with Baltusrol Lower # 4.

Or #12 or #16.  Or a few of the par-4's.

[Mike_Trenham]

I am guessing no Bethpage Black on the 1982 list.

[SteveOgulukian]

"with only one hole allowed per course. (If not, 17 holes would be from Shinnecock.)"

Seems like a call-out. Which Shinnecock hole wouldn't be included?

The Redan 7th at Shinnecock is the hole that would have been left out. 

[Jim Sherma]

I think that Baltusrol Lower gets a bit of a bad wrap. I was lucky enough to have played both courses a handful of time back in the 90's with the old equipment and before most or all of the renovations. The lower course is a sequence of one very good and challenging hole after another. The pacing of the course is exceptional as well, from the ease into the round with 1 and 2 all the way to the exceptional run of holes from 13-18.


At the top end of the scale you can make a case that these mostly clay based classic parkland courses are most negatively impacted by modern equipment and agronomy. They do not have wind, firm and free draining soil, beautiful backdrops or any of the other things that we as a group value. What they have is good solid golf designed for approaches that have been taken from long irons and fairway woods to wedges and 8 irons. The need for speed mainly requires that they be kept too soft for peak play-ability and interest.

I think by overseeding they meant reseeding divots.


And, since nobody has taken up my challenge above but you mentioned it, you will be pleased to know that the 4th at Baltusrol (Lower) was the only hole picked on both lists! 


I guess they had to pick a hole from Baltusrol, and there really weren't many candidates, unlike at Shinnecock or National or Winged Foot or Garden City.

[V. Kmetz]

I think that Baltusrol Lower gets a bit of a bad wrap. I was lucky enough to have played both courses a handful of time back in the 90's with the old equipment and before most or all of the renovations. The lower course is a sequence of one very good and challenging hole after another. The pacing of the course is exceptional as well, from the ease into the round with 1 and 2 all the way to the exceptional run of holes from 13-18.

At the top end of the scale you can make a case that these mostly clay based classic parkland courses are most negatively impacted by modern equipment and agronomy. They do not have wind, firm and free draining soil, beautiful backdrops or any of the other things that we as a group value. What they have is good solid golf designed for approaches that have been taken from long irons and fairway woods to wedges and 8 irons. The need for speed mainly requires that they be kept too soft for peak play-ability and interest.

Lots to agree with here.  I've recently re-thought and recant my previously poor opinion of the place; I've think Baltusrol Lower is a bad venue to physically attend a tournament and a largely boring place whereover to watch a tournament (until 16-18 in a tight competition) but a wonderful place to enjoy the game, including its forest slope backdrop and the long arc of golf history one feels there.  Played from one's proper tee (for me, no more than 6400) it is a more diverse course on the ground than even a live spectator and certainly a TV watcher would appreciate.

[Tom_Doak]

I am guessing no Bethpage Black on the 1982 list.

Correct!  That one fooled me, which it shouldn't have, as I played the Black in 1979, and it was pretty burnt up; it would not have impressed the MGA types.


The six courses which featured on both lists were Shinnecock, National, Garden City Golf Club, Winged Foot, Plainfield, and Baltusrol.


The old list picked these holes instead:


14th at Shinnecock
  4th at The National
16th at Garden City
17th at Winged Foot (West)
12th at Plainfield  [EDIT: corrected]


I was surprised to see the 17th at WFW on the older list, but that one kept to a par-72 course with four par-3 holes, and they left off the 10th West to make room for others.

[Tom_Doak]

I think that Baltusrol Lower gets a bit of a bad wrap. I was lucky enough to have played both courses a handful of time back in the 90's with the old equipment and before most or all of the renovations. The lower course is a sequence of one very good and challenging hole after another. The pacing of the course is exceptional as well, from the ease into the round with 1 and 2 all the way to the exceptional run of holes from 13-18.

At the top end of the scale you can make a case that these mostly clay based classic parkland courses are most negatively impacted by modern equipment and agronomy. They do not have wind, firm and free draining soil, beautiful backdrops or any of the other things that we as a group value. What they have is good solid golf designed for approaches that have been taken from long irons and fairway woods to wedges and 8 irons. The need for speed mainly requires that they be kept too soft for peak play-ability and interest.

Lots to agree with here.  I've recently re-thought and recant my previously poor opinion of the place; I've think Baltusrol Lower is a bad venue to physically attend a tournament and a largely boring place whereover to watch a tournament (until 16-18 in a tight competition) but a wonderful place to enjoy the game, including its forest slope backdrop and the long arc of golf history one feels there.  Played from one's proper tee (for me, no more than 6400) it is a more diverse course on the ground than even a live spectator and certainly a TV watcher would appreciate.

I will give you both credit for making a good argument in favor of Baltusrol.  I felt much the same way about it in the 1980's, after playing it a couple of times, and attending the U.S. Open there.  It's been forever since I played it, and the renovations they'd done prior to my last walk-around did nothing to make me feel warm and fuzzy.


Nevertheless, I still think it lacks the sort of holes that one would nominate for an eclectic 18 exercise like this one.  Both lists managed to leave out the 6th at The Creek Club; there is nothing at Baltusrol that gets you excited like that.

[V. Kmetz]

The old list picked these holes instead:

14th at Shinnecock
  4th at The National
16th at Garden City
17th at Winged Foot (West)
12th at Plainfield  [EDIT: corrected]

I was surprised to see the 17th at WFW on the older list, but that one kept to a par-72 course with four par-3 holes, and they left off the 10th West to make room for others.

No matter how it gets there, 17 WFW is a worthy hole... another (like Tillie's gentle palette at Baltusrol) hole that seems like very little from the watching but so much in the playing... now a broad treeless vista it's still a hole that angles and twists away from indifferent shots... but rewards rightful planning and execution...a genius hole in what everyone keeps repeating is banal ground.

[SteveOgulukian]

I think that Baltusrol Lower gets a bit of a bad wrap. I was lucky enough to have played both courses a handful of time back in the 90's with the old equipment and before most or all of the renovations. The lower course is a sequence of one very good and challenging hole after another. The pacing of the course is exceptional as well, from the ease into the round with 1 and 2 all the way to the exceptional run of holes from 13-18.

At the top end of the scale you can make a case that these mostly clay based classic parkland courses are most negatively impacted by modern equipment and agronomy. They do not have wind, firm and free draining soil, beautiful backdrops or any of the other things that we as a group value. What they have is good solid golf designed for approaches that have been taken from long irons and fairway woods to wedges and 8 irons. The need for speed mainly requires that they be kept too soft for peak play-ability and interest.

Lots to agree with here.  I've recently re-thought and recant my previously poor opinion of the place; I've think Baltusrol Lower is a bad venue to physically attend a tournament and a largely boring place whereover to watch a tournament (until 16-18 in a tight competition) but a wonderful place to enjoy the game, including its forest slope backdrop and the long arc of golf history one feels there.  Played from one's proper tee (for me, no more than 6400) it is a more diverse course on the ground than even a live spectator and certainly a TV watcher would appreciate.

I will give you both credit for making a good argument in favor of Baltusrol.  I felt much the same way about it in the 1980's, after playing it a couple of times, and attending the U.S. Open there.  It's been forever since I played it, and the renovations they'd done prior to my last walk-around did nothing to make me feel warm and fuzzy.


Nevertheless, I still think it lacks the sort of holes that one would nominate for an eclectic 18 exercise like this one.  Both lists managed to leave out the 6th at The Creek Club; there is nothing at Baltusrol that gets you excited like that.

I agree, Tom.  The 6th at The Creek is one of the best holes anywhere.  You may have noticed that the 11th at The Creek was an honorable mention at the bottom of the article.

[Bill Brightly]

"with only one hole allowed per course. (If not, 17 holes would be from Shinnecock.)"

Seems like a call-out. Which Shinnecock hole wouldn't be included?

The Redan 7th at Shinnecock is the hole that would have been left out.

There is no Redan at Shinnecock, not since Flynn worked on the course.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

The National- 1
Garden City- 2
North Shore- 3
Fishers Island- 4
Bethpage Black- 5
The Creek- 6
Rockaway Hunt Club- 7
Maidstone- 8
Fishers Island- 9
Shinnecock- 10
Shinnecock- 11
Wykagyl- 12
St George's- 13
Engineers- 14
Somerset Hills- 15
Sleepy Hollow- 16
The National- 17
The National- 18

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